Dispensationalism versus Hyper-Dispensationalism

[Stranger]

Your answer does not address the law in relation to the "Dispensation of Law". Are you saying that the "Dispensation of Law" refers to the years when Israel was under a legal document with written laws, but now we are not? And why not? Is it because those written laws are now written in our hearts and minds? The laws still exist. They are simply administered in a new way (internally rather than externally). Perhaps you should rename the dispensations of law and grace to the "Dispensation of External Laws" and the "Dispensation of Internal Laws" rather than misleading believers worldwide into believing we are no longer under any Law.

Yes, the Law was from Moses to the Cross. The Law does not exist to God as a legal document that believers now are to follow. It came to an end. At Pentecost began the dispensation of the Church, or some say the Holy Spirit, or Grace. It doesn't mean there was no grace under Law. There was. It doesn't mean the Church is not free from obedience under Grace. Under Law, the believer was held accountable to the Law. Under Grace the believer is accountable to the Spirit.

We are not under any law. We are not misleading anyone.

Stranger

 

[gadar perets]

The Law does not exist to God as a legal document that believers now are to follow. It came to an end.

Do you have any Scripture to back this up?

At Pentecost began the dispensation of the Church, or some say the Holy Spirit, or Grace.

What dispensation existed between the cross and Pentecost?

Under Law, the believer was held accountable to the Law. Under Grace the believer is accountable to the Spirit.

We are not under any law.

And what is the Spirit doing under the New Covenant?

Eze 36:26 "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.​

What statutes and ordinances (laws) is the Spirit causing people to keep if there is no law? What law is being established through faith (Romans 3:31)? On what grounds is adultery and idolatry sin under the New Covenant if there is no law against them? Where does Torah in the heart fall if there is no law? Please explain James 4:11 is there is no law.

 

[Stranger]

Do you have any Scripture to back this up?


What dispensation existed between the cross and Pentecost?


And what is the Spirit doing under the New Covenant?

Eze 36:26 "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.​

Eze 36:27 "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

What statutes and ordinances (laws) is the Spirit causing people to keep if there is no law? What law is being established through faith (Romans 3:31)? On what grounds is adultery and idolatry sin under the New Covenant if there is no law against them? Where does Torah in the heart fall if there is no law? Please explain James 4:11 is there is no law.

(2 Cor. 3:7-11)

Between the Cross and Pentecost was a matter of days. Legally the Law was still in affect. Once the Holy Ghost came, the new age began.

We are talking about the dispensation of the Church, Holy Spirit, or Grace. Concerning the New Covenant, at this time, the Holy Spirit is bringing both Jew and Gentile into the Church. But they are mostly Gentile. Isn't that something? Jesus, the Messiah, has a wife that will be mostly Gentile. How will that set with the Jews?

As I said, the Church is not under any law. Sin still exists of course. But, the Church is under no law.

Stranger

 

[gadar perets]

(2 Cor. 3:7-11)

2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
2Co 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
2Co 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
2Co 3:10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
2Co 3:11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.​

This passage refers to the Old Covenant being done away, not the law.

In verse 7, the italicized word “glory” is not in the Greek text. The addition of the word “glory” leads one to believe it was the glory that was done away with. The translators undoubtedly added the word glory to prevent the reader from erroneously believing the Ten Commandments were done away with.

What Paul is really saying in verse 7 is that the Old Covenant is done away. The Greek word for “done away” means to become entirely idle, cease, be abolished, or vanish away. Hebrews 8:13 says the same thing;

“In that he says, a new covenant, he has made the first old. Now that which decays and waxes old is ready to vanish away.”​

Paul is saying the Old Covenant is a ministration of death and condemnation, but something else was to replace it; the ministration of the Spirit and of righteousness. This is the New Covenant which is far more glorious than the Old Covenant because it is established on better promises, a better priesthood, a better sacrifice, and a better way of administering the covenant itself. The Old Covenant was administered through the letter. The New Covenant is administered through the Spirit. The Old Covenant law was written on stones and scrolls. The New Covenant law is written on our hearts. However, the Law of YHWH cannot be written on a person’s heart until their veil of blindness is removed through the acceptance of Yeshua the Messiah as one’s Master and Savior.

Paul dealt with the issue of the Old and New Covenants in Galatians 4:21-31 as well. He teaches the Galatians the same thing he taught the Corinthians; that the Old Covenant is to be “cast out”. We are children of the freewoman or the New Covenant, not the bondwoman or the Old Covenant.

The Old Covenant law was not “cast out.” The Old Covenant itself was. The law, however, was written on the hearts of those entering the New Covenant. The law under the OC was administered without the Spirit. The same law is administered under the NC with the Spirit.

As I said, the Church is not under any law. Sin still exists of course. But, the Church is under no law.

How can sin still exist without law if sin is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4)?

Also, you neglected to answer these questions;

What statutes and ordinances (laws) is the Spirit causing people to keep if there is no law?
What law is being established through faith (Romans 3:31)?
On what grounds is adultery and idolatry sin under the New Covenant if there is no law against them?
Where does Torah in the heart fall if there is no law?
Please explain James 4:11 is there is no law.​

 

[Stranger]

2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
2Co 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
2Co 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
2Co 3:10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
2Co 3:11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.​

This passage refers to the Old Covenant being done away, not the law.

In verse 7, the italicized word “glory” is not in the Greek text. The addition of the word “glory” leads one to believe it was the glory that was done away with. The translators undoubtedly added the word glory to prevent the reader from erroneously believing the Ten Commandments were done away with.

What Paul is really saying in verse 7 is that the Old Covenant is done away. The Greek word for “done away” means to become entirely idle, cease, be abolished, or vanish away. Hebrews 8:13 says the same thing;

“In that he says, a new covenant, he has made the first old. Now that which decays and waxes old is ready to vanish away.”​

Paul is saying the Old Covenant is a ministration of death and condemnation, but something else was to replace it; the ministration of the Spirit and of righteousness. This is the New Covenant which is far more glorious than the Old Covenant because it is established on better promises, a better priesthood, a better sacrifice, and a better way of administering the covenant itself. The Old Covenant was administered through the letter. The New Covenant is administered through the Spirit. The Old Covenant law was written on stones and scrolls. The New Covenant law is written on our hearts. However, the Law of YHWH cannot be written on a person’s heart until their veil of blindness is removed through the acceptance of Yeshua the Messiah as one’s Master and Savior.

Paul dealt with the issue of the Old and New Covenants in Galatians 4:21-31 as well. He teaches the Galatians the same thing he taught the Corinthians; that the Old Covenant is to be “cast out”. We are children of the freewoman or the New Covenant, not the bondwoman or the Old Covenant.

The Old Covenant law was not “cast out.” The Old Covenant itself was. The law, however, was written on the hearts of those entering the New Covenant. The law under the OC was administered without the Spirit. The same law is administered under the NC with the Spirit.


How can sin still exist without law if sin is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4)?

Also, you neglected to answer these questions;

What statutes and ordinances (laws) is the Spirit causing people to keep if there is no law?
What law is being established through faith (Romans 3:31)?
On what grounds is adultery and idolatry sin under the New Covenant if there is no law against them?
Where does Torah in the heart fall if there is no law?
Please explain James 4:11 is there is no law.​

(Ex. 34:28) "And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights...And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments."

(2 Cor. 3:7) "But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones,....which glory was to be done away:"

(2 Cor. 3:11) "For if that which is done away was glorious...."

We have to first settle that the Scriptures are clear that the Mosaic Law has been done away as legally binding on the Christian. This includes the ten commandments. Again see (EX. 34:28)

Stranger

 

[farouk]

(Ex. 34:28) "And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights...And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments."

(2 Cor. 3:7) "But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones,....which glory was to be done away:"

(2 Cor. 3:11) "For if that which is done away was glorious...."

We have to first settle that the Scriptures are clear that the Mosaic Law has been done away as legally binding on the Christian. This includes the ten commandments. Again see (EX. 34:28)

Stranger

Hebrews 7.12 that the law was changed; and Hebrews 7.19 shows that what we now have is better than the law.

 

[gadar perets]

(Ex. 34:28) "And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights...And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments."

(2 Cor. 3:7) "But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones,....which glory was to be done away:"

(2 Cor. 3:11) "For if that which is done away was glorious...."

We have to first settle that the Scriptures are clear that the Mosaic Law has been done away as legally binding on the Christian. This includes the ten commandments. Again see (EX. 34:28)

You are contending that the entire Mosaic Law is done away with based on 2 Cor. 3:7 which superficially implies only the Ten Commandments are done away with. Neither is true. Paul is referring to the Old Covenant which contained the heart of the law, the Ten Cs. It is the OC that is done away with along with the way that entire covenant was administered. YHWH knew the Spirit was needed so He made a new covenant in which the indwelling Holy Spirit would enable believers to obey (Ezekiel 36:26-27). He also knew the Torah (including the Ten Cs) needed to be internalized in man rather than written on stone. He accomplished both in the creation of the New Covenant.

If you insist on using 2 Cor. 3:7-11 which says nothing about the "Mosaic Law" being done away with, then you need to come up with a different verse to show the entire Mosaic Law is done away with.

 

[gadar perets]

Hebrews 7.12 that the law was changed; and Hebrews 7.19 shows that what we now have is better than the law.

Hebrews 7:11-19 refer to the changing of only ONE commandment within the Law of YHWH, that is, the law pertaining to which tribe the high priest had to come from. That commandment was changed long before Yeshua came via the oath of Psalm 110:4. Hebrews 7:12 does NOT refer to changing the entire Law.

 

[farouk]

Hebrews 7:11-19 refer to the changing of only ONE commandment within the Law of YHWH, that is, the law pertaining to which tribe the high priest had to come from. That commandment was changed long before Yeshua came via the oath of Psalm 110:4. Hebrews 7:12 does NOT refer to changing the entire Law.

Hebrews 7.19 indicates that what we now have is better than the law.

 

[gadar perets]

Hebrews 7.19 indicates that what we now have is better than the law.

Sure, if you pluck the verse out of its context as you are doing. The "law" referred to in verse 19 is the law concerning the Levitical priesthood, not the entire Law of YHWH. What we now have is a High Priest after the order of Melchizedek which is better than a Levitical high priest after the order of Aaron.

 

[Stranger]

You are contending that the entire Mosaic Law is done away with based on 2 Cor. 3:7 which superficially implies only the Ten Commandments are done away with. Neither is true. Paul is referring to the Old Covenant which contained the heart of the law, the Ten Cs. It is the OC that is done away with along with the way that entire covenant was administered. YHWH knew the Spirit was needed so He made a new covenant in which the indwelling Holy Spirit would enable believers to obey (Ezekiel 36:26-27). He also knew the Torah (including the Ten Cs) needed to be internalized in man rather than written on stone. He accomplished both in the creation of the New Covenant.

If you insist on using 2 Cor. 3:7-11 which says nothing about the "Mosaic Law" being done away with, then you need to come up with a different verse to show the entire Mosaic Law is done away with.

You're not paying attention.

(Ex. 34:28) "he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments."

(2 Cor. 3:7)"the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones,..."

(2 Cor. 3:11) "if that which is done away was glorious"

It is pretty clear.

Stranger

 

[farouk]

Sure, if you pluck the verse out of its context as you are doing. The "law" referred to in verse 19 is the law concerning the Levitical priesthood, not the entire Law of YHWH. What we now have is a High Priest after the order of Melchizedek which is better than a Levitical high priest after the order of Aaron.

In verse 19, 'better' is in contrast with the law, which made nothing perfect.

 

[Dave L]

Dispensationalism is not based on scripture. They base it on an imaginary gap between Gabriel's 69th and 70th weeks. So it is extra biblical from it's roots. Built on thin air. They then lift scripture from it's context. And try to recreate the first century world of Gabriel's prophecy, well into the future. A restored Roman Empire, A replay of the Great Tribulation fulfilled in Jesus' day, an Antichrist already fulfilled in Nero and the Papacy, and looming in Islam. And a third temple, defined as Jesus and the Church in the New Covenant. And return to animal sacrifices abolished by Christ and so on. There's more .............

 

[gadar perets]

You're not paying attention.

Interesting way of not addressing my post.

 

[gadar perets]

In verse 19, 'better' is in contrast with the law, which made nothing perfect.

I agree. It is your misunderstanding of what "law" refers to in that verse that is the issue.

 

[Stranger]

Interesting way of not addressing my post.

Your explanation in your post goes against the Scriptures I showed you. Does that not address your post?

Stranger

 

[gadar perets]

(Ex. 34:28) "he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments."

Are the Ten Cs the only words of the OC? No. The OC includes the entire Mosaic Law. The Ten Cs are put for the entire covenant just as they are in 1Cor. 7 because they are the heart of the entire Law.

(2 Cor. 3:7)"the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones,..."

(2 Cor. 3:11) "if that which is done away was glorious"

As in Exodus 34:28, the Ten CS are put for the entire OC. It is the OC as a whole that is done away, not just the Ten Cs or the Mosaic Law. However, they (part of Torah) are now written in NC hearts and minds (Jeremiah 31:33). It is the external Ten Cs written on stone and the external Mosaic Law written on parchment that were done away with when the OC was done away with. The internal Ten Cs and the internal Mosaic Law (Torah) were not done away with.

 

[Stranger]

Are the Ten Cs the only words of the OC? No. The OC includes the entire Mosaic Law. The Ten Cs are put for the entire covenant just as they are in 1Cor. 7 because they are the heart of the entire Law.


As in Exodus 34:28, the Ten CS are put for the entire OC. It is the OC as a whole that is done away, not just the Ten Cs or the Mosaic Law. However, they (part of Torah) are now written in NC hearts and minds (Jeremiah 31:33). It is the external Ten Cs written on stone and the external Mosaic Law written on parchment that were done away with when the OC was done away with. The internal Ten Cs and the internal Mosaic Law (Torah) were not done away with.

Pay attention. That which was engraven in stones...is done away. The Old Covenant which included the Ten Commmandments is done away.

Stranger

 

[gadar perets]

Pay attention. That which was engraven in stones...is done away. The Old Covenant which included the Ten Commmandments is done away.

That is exactly what I just wrote; "It is the external Ten Cs written on stone and the external Mosaic Law written on parchment that were done away with when the OC was done away with." wadr, you are the one that needs to pay attention.

 

[Stranger]

That is exactly what I just wrote; "It is the external Ten Cs written on stone and the external Mosaic Law written on parchment that were done away with when the OC was done away with." wadr, you are the one that needs to pay attention.

Pay attention. Scripture is clear. You can say 'external' all you want. Scripture doesn't make that distinction. The Mosaic Covenant and the law were done away with.

Stranger