Dispensationalism versus Hyper-Dispensationalism

[Enoch111]

That which was engraven in stones...is done away.

And now it is written on the *tablets* of the heart, by the Spirit, through the New Birth.

For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people (Heb 8:10)

The New Covenant is already in force since the crucifixion and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost.

 

[Stranger]

And now it is written on the *tablets* of the heart, by the Spirit, through the New Birth.

For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people (Heb 8:10)

The New Covenant is already in force since the crucifixion and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost.

The New is new. But it is not the Old.

The house of Israel will be brought into the New. But they are not yet. "I will"

So, what is your point?

Stranger

 

[gadar perets]

Pay attention. Scripture is clear. You can say 'external' all you want. Scripture doesn't make that distinction. The Mosaic Covenant and the law were done away with.

Of course it does! They were on stone and parchment (external to man) and now they are written on hearts and minds (internal to man).

Jeremiah 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith YHWH, I will put my law (TORAH) in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
​

If you choose to not want Torah in your heart, I don't think YHWH will force it on you. How sad.

 

[Enoch111]

So, what is your point?

My point is that the Church is ALREADY under the New Covenant. And the Ten Commandments are written on hearts and minds, so that they will be obeyed under the Law of Christ. As Paul said *Love is the fulfilling of the Law*. Which means that the Ten Commandments are not obsolete.

 

[Stranger]

Of course it does! They were on stone and parchment (external to man) and now they are written on hearts and minds (internal to man).

Jeremiah 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith YHWH, I will put my law (TORAH) in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
​

If you choose to not want Torah in your heart, I don't think YHWH will force it on you. How sad.

If you choose to place yourself under the Law after God has removed it, God won't stop you.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

My point is that the Church is ALREADY under the New Covenant. And the Ten Commandments are written on hearts and minds, so that they will be obeyed under the Law of Christ. As Paul said *Love is the fulfilling of the Law*. Which means that the Ten Commandments are not obsolete.

Yes, the Church is under the New Covenant. Not the Old Covenant. Pretty simple really. All you and others are doing is presenting a new edition of the Old Covenant. If you want to follow it, go ahead. It will kill you now just as it did then. Unless of course you are telling me you keep all the commandments.

The Mosaic Covenant which is all the Law including the Ten Commandments has been done away as legally binding on the Christian. We are no longer under the Law. That the Law exists, yes. That we are under it, no.

Stranger

 

[gadar perets]

If you choose to place yourself under the Law after God has removed it, God won't stop you.

I am not placing myself "under the Law". The "Law" (Torah) was placed inside of me as per Jeremiah 31:33. How can I avoid keeping a Law that is written on my heart without grieving the Holy Spirit? I can't. All spiritually minded people under the NC will gladly be subject to the Law and carnal people will refuse to be subject to the Law.

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
​

 

[Stranger]

I am not placing myself "under the Law". The "Law" (Torah) was placed inside of me as per Jeremiah 31:33. How can I avoid keeping a Law that is written on my heart without grieving the Holy Spirit? I can't. All spiritually minded people under the NC will gladly be subject to the Law and carnal people will refuse to be subject to the Law.

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
​

So, do you ever break those ten commandments that are written on your heart?

Stranger

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Your answer does not address the law in relation to the "Dispensation of Law". Are you saying that the "Dispensation of Law" refers to the years when Israel was under a legal document with written laws, but now we are not? And why not? Is it because those written laws are now written in our hearts and minds? The laws still exist. They are simply administered in a new way (internally rather than externally). Perhaps you should rename the dispensations of law and grace to the "Dispensation of External Laws" and the "Dispensation of Internal Laws" rather than misleading believers worldwide into believing we are no longer under any Law.

Many throw these words around without even knowing what they mean.

Up front, I am a Dispensationalist.

Here's a kickoff to get the discussion started:
What is ultra-dispensationalism?

While I see some usefulness to dispensationalism as a tool for looking at the Bible, I think it can be too restrictive depending on how the tool is used. As Christians, I believe that we can learn from ALL of God's word, whether it was specifically spoken/written to the church or to Israel....

Romans 15:4--For whatever was written in the past was written for our instruction, so that we may have hope through endurance and through the encouragement from the Scriptures.
.​

 

[Prayer Warrior]

I am not placing myself "under the Law". The "Law" (Torah) was placed inside of me as per Jeremiah 31:33. How can I avoid keeping a Law that is written on my heart without grieving the Holy Spirit? I can't. All spiritually minded people under the NC will gladly be subject to the Law and carnal people will refuse to be subject to the Law.

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
​

Yikes! I understand what you're saying, but you have to look at all of Romans. Paul said that apart from the law, we are made righteous (by grace through faith in Jesus Christ). When we are born again, something radical happens to us! We are no longer under the guidance or tutelage of the law, which was given to show that we are sinners in need of a Savior. Now, we are guided from within by the Holy Spirit!

Romans 3:21-24--But now, apart from the law, God’s righteousness has been revealed — attested by the Law and the Prophets — that is, God’s righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ, to all who believe, since there is no distinction. For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. They are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.
​

It's not that the law has been abolished. The Law is still very much in effect, and those who live by it will be judged by it, meaning those who refuse the free gift of salvation by grace through faith. And those who live without it will perish without it because they do not see their need for a Savior to deliver them from their sins.

But Christians live on a completely different plane--by grace through faith! We are now to walk according to the Spirit, i.e. filled with and controlled by the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Romans 8:1-4--Therefore, no condemnation now exists for those in Christ Jesus, because the Spirit’s law of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. What the law could not do since it was limited by the flesh, God did. He condemned sin in the flesh by sending His own Son in flesh like ours under sin’s domain, and as a sin offering, in order that the law’s requirement would be accomplished in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
​

Edit: Keep in mind that as we walk according to the Spirit, He will never lead us to transgress God's moral laws.

 

[gadar perets]

So, do you ever break those ten commandments that are written on your heart?

Stranger

Occasionally, but not willfully.

 

[Stranger]

Occasionally, but not willfully.

So, what is the difference in following and being under the Law, and supposed to obey it, then having the law written on your heart and trying to obey it. Either way, the Law killed you. You failed.

Stranger

 

[gadar perets]

Yikes! I understand what you're saying, but you have to look at all of Romans. Paul said that apart from the law, we are made righteous (by grace through faith in Jesus Christ). When we are born again, something radical happens to us! We are no longer under the guidance or tutelage of the law, which was given to show that we are sinners in need of a Savior. Now, we are guided from within by the Holy Spirit!

Romans 3:21-24--But now, apart from the law, God’s righteousness has been revealed — attested by the Law and the Prophets — that is, God’s righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ, to all who believe, since there is no distinction. For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. They are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.
​

It's not that the law has been abolished. The Law is still very much in effect, and those who live by it will be judged by it, meaning those who refuse the free gift of salvation by grace through faith. And those who live without it will perish without it because they do not see their need for a Savior to deliver them from their sins.

But Christians live on a completely different plane--by grace through faith! We are now to walk according to the Spirit, i.e. filled with and controlled by the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Romans 8:1-4--Therefore, no condemnation now exists for those in Christ Jesus, because the Spirit’s law of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. What the law could not do since it was limited by the flesh, God did. He condemned sin in the flesh by sending His own Son in flesh like ours under sin’s domain, and as a sin offering, in order that the law’s requirement would be accomplished in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
.​

I agree with everything you wrote. I never said I seek to be righteous through keeping the Law. My righteousness is imparted to me through faith.

Yes, the indwelling Holy Spirit controls my actions. As Ezekiel showed, the Holy Spirit will cause us to obey YHWH's laws (Ezekiel 36:26-27). However, the Spirit will not force us to. We can choose to walk in the flesh and shut our ears to the Spirit as it leads us to obey the Law. That is what a carnally minded person will do, but the spiritually minded person will allow himself to be subject to the Law (Romans 8:7).

 

[Prayer Warrior]

I agree with everything you wrote. I never said I seek to be righteous through keeping the Law. My righteousness is imparted to me through faith.

Yes, the indwelling Holy Spirit controls my actions. As Ezekiel showed, the Holy Spirit will cause us to obey YHWH's laws (Ezekiel 36:26-27). However, the Spirit will not force us to. We can choose to walk in the flesh and shut our ears to the Spirit as it leads us to obey the Law. That is what a carnally minded person will do, but the spiritually minded person will allow himself to be subject to the Law (Romans 8:7).

This is where we differ. The spiritually-minded person will allow himself to be subject to the Spirit, not the law!

It's a totally different mindset. "For the mind-set of the flesh is death, but the mind-set of the Spirit is life and peace." (Romans 8:6)

Edit: You may want to read Romans 8:1-4 again.

 

[gadar perets]

So, what is the difference in following and being under the Law, and supposed to obey it, then having the law written on your heart and trying to obey it. Either way, the Law killed you. You failed.

The true believer cannot fail except through renouncing Yeshua as his Savior. When any believer sins, we simply confess the sin, receive forgiveness and move on endeavoring to sin no more out of love for our Heavenly Father. We do not try to abolish the Law in order to avoid sin. Those under the OC Law fail repeatedly because they don't have the indwelling Holy Spirit or the Law in their heart. When they sin by breaking the Law, they are condemned to death. Under the NC, there is no such condemnation for sin (breaking the Law). However, that is not justification to continue in sin. A true believer MUST obey the Spirit as it leads us to obey the Law (be subject to the Law). Otherwise we grieve the Spirit. Most don't even know they are grieving the Spirit because they have been falsely taught there is no more Law to obey.

 

[gadar perets]

This is where we differ. The spiritually-minded person will allow himself to be subject to the Spirit, not the law!

Explain Romans 8:7 where Paul says the carnally minded person will not and cannot be subject to the Law. That means the spiritually minded person will and can be subject to the Law. Of course, in order to be subject to the Law one must first be subject to the Spirit. Then the Spirit leads us to obey the Law. The Spirit does NOT lead us to break the Law and sin.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Explain Romans 8:7 where Paul says the carnally minded person will not and cannot be subject to the Law. That means the spiritually minded person will and can be subject to the Law. Of course, in order to be subject to the Law one must first be subject to the Spirit. Then the Spirit leads us to obey the Law. The Spirit does NOT lead us to break the Law and sin.

You're drawing a conclusion that Paul clearly wasn't drawing (if you read all of Romans 8). What is the "law of sin and death" in verse 2?

Therefore, no condemnation now exists for those in Christ Jesus, because the Spirit’s law of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
​

Edit: What I'm trying to say is that obeying the law is not the remedy for overcoming the flesh, as Paul said in Galatians 5, "I say then, walk by the Spirit and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh."

 

[gadar perets]

You're drawing a conclusion that Paul clearly wasn't drawing (if you read all of Romans 8). What is the "law of sin and death" in verse 2?

Therefore, no condemnation now exists for those in Christ Jesus, because the Spirit’s law of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
​

Edit: What I'm trying to say is that obeying the law is not the remedy for overcoming the flesh, as Paul said in Galatians 5, "I say then, walk by the Spirit and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh."

My conclusion is based on a correct understanding of Paul in context which includes Romans 7.

Romans 7:22-23 - "For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members."​

"Another law" - The first law (the law of Paul's mind) is the law of God/YHWH in verse 22. That Law is Torah written in Paul's mind and heart under the NC. A second law (the law that we are freed from) is the law of sin. It is the law of sin that rules over a person all his life and keeps that person in bondage (Romans 8:2) until Messiah comes to free them. The law of sin is at war with the law of Paul's mind (the law of YHWH) which YHWH wrote there under the New Covenant.

Romans 7:24,25 - " O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Yeshua Messiah our Master. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."
​

With that context in mind, it is the carnal fleshly minded man that refuses to be subject to the Law, but the spiritually minded man will be subject to the Law of YHWH that is written in his mind and heart. You erroneously believe the "law os sin and death" is the "law of God".

 

[Prayer Warrior]

My conclusion is based on a correct understanding of Paul in context which includes Romans 7.

Romans 7:22-23 - "For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members."​

"Another law" - The first law (the law of Paul's mind) is the law of God/YHWH in verse 22. That Law is Torah written in Paul's mind and heart under the NC. A second law (the law that we are freed from) is the law of sin. It is the law of sin that rules over a person all his life and keeps that person in bondage (Romans 8:2) until Messiah comes to free them. The law of sin is at war with the law of Paul's mind (the law of YHWH) which YHWH wrote there under the New Covenant.

Romans 7:24,25 - " O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Yeshua Messiah our Master. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."
​

With that context in mind, it is the carnal fleshly minded man that refuses to be subject to the Law, but the spiritually minded man will be subject to the Law of YHWH that is written in his mind and heart. You erroneously believe the "law os sin and death" is the "law of God".

Your interpretation of the law of sin and death isn't matching up with what Paul said right after that--

Romas 8:1-4--Therefore, no condemnation now exists for those in Christ Jesus, because the Spirit’s law of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. What the law could not do since it was limited by the flesh, God did. He condemned sin in the flesh by sending His own Son in flesh like ours under sin’s domain, and as a sin offering, in order that the law’s requirement would be accomplished in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
​

Paul is talking about the law given through Moses in all of these verses. The law could not make us righteous because it was "limited by the flesh." The sin offering of Jesus fulfilled the "law's requirement" so that we are made free to walk not after the flesh, in bondage to sin, but according to the Spirit.

 

[gadar perets]

Your interpretation of the law of sin and death isn't matching up with what Paul said right after that--

Romas 8:1-4--Therefore, no condemnation now exists for those in Christ Jesus, because the Spirit’s law of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. What the law could not do since it was limited by the flesh, God did. He condemned sin in the flesh by sending His own Son in flesh like ours under sin’s domain, and as a sin offering, in order that the law’s requirement would be accomplished in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
​

Paul is talking about the law given through Moses is all of these verses. The law could not make us righteous because it was "limited by the flesh." The sin offering of Jesus fulfilled the "law's requirement" so that we are made free to walk not after the flesh, in bondage to sin, but according to the Spirit.

Romans 8:1-4--Therefore, no condemnation now exists for those in Christ Jesus, because the Spirit’s law of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. [This is the other law Paul referred to that was "against" the law of his mind which is the Law of God.] What the law could not do since it was limited by the flesh, God did. [The law of God is limited by the flesh because the flesh is against the Law of God, but the indwelling Spirit is NOT against the Law of God which is why the spiritually minded person can be subject to the Law.] He condemned sin in the flesh by sending His own Son in flesh like ours under sin’s domain, and as a sin offering, in order that the law’s requirement would be accomplished in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. [Now that Yeshua has condemned sin in the flesh, which is another way of saying "breaking the Law of God in the flesh", and given us the indwelling Holy Spirit, we can be subject to the Law and actually obey it (fulfill the Law's requirements).]

The fact that the Law cannot make us righteous is not grounds for abolishing it. It cannot be abolished because breaking it is how we know that we have sinned. If we do not know we have sinned, then we cannot confess our sin and receive forgiveness. How diabolical Satan is. He has deceived Christians into believing the Law of YHWH is abolished so that we will go right on sinning throughout our lives and never confess those sins.​