Dispensationalism

[Doug]

Hello
I watched this and Dave Hunt only offered (that I recall) that it "went too far" as a reason to refute dispensationalism .

He commented on baptism.....please show me where, under the teachings of Paul...he offers a reason or command to be baptized.

 

[CoreIssue]

Romans 2.29 speaks of the circumcision of the heart.

But that is not circumcision Dave L is talking about.

 

[Doug]

Yes it does. Non-Christian Jews. Non-Christian gentiles and Christian Jews and Gentiles.

The body of Christ is the co-heirs Israel and church.

The church is all believers from the resurrection of Christ to the rapture.

But that is irrelevant to dispensations.

Here is my view dispensation.

Innocence

Conscience

Mosaic law for Israel while conscience for everyone else. Israel was supposed to be the nation of missionaries. It failed.

The church age. But for the beginning conscience still was active in the world. The church is failing as well.

At the rapture the new covenant to the houses of Israel and Judah. Israel will then succeed at being missionaries. But mankind will continue in rebellion.

Then eternity.

Here is more classical view.View attachment 6022

Covenant theology does away with Israel, but the Bible does not.

After the rapture the groups are Israel, tribulation saints and everyone else.

In the MK it is Israel, Gentile Saints and everyone else.

What never changes is the grace of God and the blood of Christ, whether by promise or immediate fulfillment via the Holy Spirit.

Hello

I think Paul may have simplified dispensational periods:

TIMES PAST Ephesians 2:3
BUT NOW Romans 3:21
THINGS TO COME Romans 8:38

 

[tzcho2]

According to scripture Jesus Is Israel along with believers. The broken of unbelievers are no longer biblical Jews, but gentiles of Jewish ethnicity. Any who accept Christ will be reattached to Israel through faith.

That shows the gross interpretative reading error. I reject every Pastor that preaches this replacement theology. It's the false teaching that revamps God's word ousting the Jews from bible prophecies, and revokes God's eternal promises. I do believe this error that many believe is a satan inspired & backed. It is a spiritual deception first that has taken hold, & misleads people like you Dave.
Who else but Satan wants to twist God's word, deceive & confuse the followers and attack God's chosen whether Jews or the Church?
No thanks! I'll read the word of God literally, within context as it has been written for us to understand. You have a lot of stubbornly strong wrong opinions Dave L , views that are not in line with what the Bible explicitly teaches, not believing that God has since '48 been restoring the Jews in their land , (which is blooming btw at their hands) ,like you're not believing in the rapture, not believing in the future great Tribulation, not believing God is saving a remnant for Himself, or Jesus coming Millennial reign for 1000 yrs.

 

[CoreIssue]

Hello
I watched this and Dave Hunt only offered (that I recall) that it "went too far" as a reason to refute dispensationalism .

He commented on baptism.....please show me where, under the teachings of Paul...he offers a reason or command to be baptized.

Unless I missed it Hunt takes the biblical position that baptism is only a sign of being born again. It is not commanded urged as an act of obedience.

Traditional dispensationalism does go to for a number of areas as I indicated.

One has to understand there is not one singular teaching about dispensations. There are many with some treating it as gospel and salvation.

 

[CoreIssue]

Hello

I think Paul may have simplified dispensational periods:

TIMES PAST Ephesians 2:3
BUT NOW Romans 3:21
THINGS TO COME Romans 8:38

I think he broke it down exactly as I do. But his focus did not include innocence.

There is a lot more in what he said than your verses. Have a lot of years study to put them together. Some were not easy to see at first.
Innocence

Conscience

Mosaic law for Israel while conscience for everyone else. Israel was supposed to be the nation of missionaries. It failed.

The church age. But for the beginning conscience still was active in the world. The church is failing as well.

At the rapture the new covenant to the houses of Israel and Judah. Israel will then succeed at being missionaries. But mankind will continue in rebellion.

Then eternity

 

[tzcho2]

Got it. So you are saying blindness has happened to Jesus since in your formula Jesus always equals Israel...

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. (Rom 11:25)

I've given him the Romans 11 scripture half a doz times and he writes it off.

 

[CoreIssue]

I've given him the Romans 11 scripture half a doz times and he writes it off.

Blindness of Israel is on Jesus??

That's absurd!

 

[Dave L]

That shows the gross interpretative reading error. I reject every Pastor that preaches this replacement theology. It's the false teaching that revamps God's word ousting the Jews from bible prophecies, and revokes God's eternal promises. I do believe this error that many believe is a satan inspired & backed. It is a spiritual deception first that has taken hold, & misleads people like you Dave.
Who else but Satan wants to twist God's word, deceive & confuse the followers and attack God's chosen whether Jews or the Church?
No thanks! I'll read the word of God literally, within context as it has been written for us to understand. You have a lot of stubbornly strong wrong opinions Dave L , views that are not in line with what the Bible explicitly teaches, not believing that God has since '48 been restoring the Jews in their land , (which is blooming btw at their hands) ,like you're not believing in the rapture, not believing in the future great Tribulation, not believing God is saving a remnant for Himself, or Jesus coming Millennial reign for 1000 yrs.

To whom are the broken off Jews reattached by faith, if they are Israel?

 

[CoreIssue]

To whom are the broken off Jews reattached by faith, if they are Israel?

Physical Jews

 

[Dave L]

Physical Jews

There are no physical Jews under the New Covenant. Only Jesus and those who believe in him make-up Israel.

 

[CoreIssue]

There are no physical Jews under the New Covenant. Only Jesus and those who believe in him make-up Israel.

False

 

[Dave L]

False

Circumcision made one a physical Jew and Jesus took it away.

 

[CoreIssue]

Circumcision made one a physical Jew and Jesus took it away.

Birth to Jewish parents made one a physical Jew.

Circumcision was a sign of being committed to Mosaic law.

 

[marks]

To whom are the broken off Jews reattached by faith, if they are Israel?

I understand Abraham to be the tree that the Isrealites are broken from, and may be regrafted into, also, the gentiles are grafted into Abraham, the father of the faithful, father of many nations.

Much love!

 

[CoreIssue]

I understand Abraham to be the tree that the Isrealites are broken from, and may be regrafted into, also, the gentiles are grafted into Abraham, the father of the faithful, father of many nations.

Much love!

I understand Abraham to be the tree that the Isrealites are broken from, and may be regrafted into, also, the gentiles are grafted into Abraham, the father of the faithful, father of many nations.

Much love!

Gentiles are wild branches grafted into the native tree.

They are nourished by the native tree but never become native branches.

If you've ever seen a plant that is grafted into the grafted branches instantly obvious.

And yes. A native branch that is broken off can be grafted back in and remain native.

 

[marks]

And yes. A native branch that is broken off can be grafted back in and remain native.

Good point! They can be "grafted back in", not just "grafted in", same as the others.

Much love!

 

[CoreIssue]

Another issue is one does not have to be Israel to be church. Church is both Jew and Gentile.

Or for being body of Christ. Israel and church are coheirs in the body of Christ. Not one heir.

The New Testament makes it clear that while All Saints at that time were church Gentiles and Jews remain distinct as people. And that God would take Israel back as his wife at the second coming.

The church will be gone. It will be as under Mosaic law as to the roles and situations of Jews and Gentiles.

The time of the Gentile makes a crystal-clear the church age on the earth would end and Israel will return.

Granted the way Israel is today makes that a head scratcher.

 

[charity]

Hello there, - @Dave L, @marks, @farouk, @CoreIssue, @Enoch111, @prism, @GISMYS_7, @tzcho2, @Doug, and all others taking part in this thread.

Not desiring to lose the subject of the thread. May I say that in relation to what has been said in the last few posts, concerning what was the Olive Tree of Israel. The believer in this dispensation is no longer grafted into Israel: for Israel as a nation has been laid aside (though temporarily) in unbelief, and is, at this present time in a Lo'ammi condition. There is no 'Israel' to be grafted into at this present time. They are, 'Not my People', and yet await that day, when God will say to them again, 'Thou art my People'. (Hosea 1:9,10; Hosea 1:23).

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Dave L]

Hello there, @Dave L, @marks, @farouk, @CoreIssue, and all others taking part in this thread.

Not desiring to lose the subject of the thread. May I say that in relation to what has been said in the last few posts, concerning what was the Olive Tree of Israel. The believer in this dispensation is no longer grafted into Israel: for Israel as a nation has been laid aside (though temporarily) in unbelief, and is, at this present time in a Lo'ammi condition. There is no 'Israel' to be grafted into at this present time. They are, 'Not my People', and yet await that day, when God will say to them again, 'Thou art my People'. (Hosea 1:9,10; Hosea 1:23).

In Christ Jesus
Chris

This is not what Paul says in Romans 11. If broken off unbelievers are grafted back into Israel through faith, Jesus and believers are Israel.