Dispensationalism

[Dave L]

I understand Abraham to be the tree that the Isrealites are broken from, and may be regrafted into, also, the gentiles are grafted into Abraham, the father of the faithful, father of many nations.

Much love!

Abraham's seed = Israel.

 

[Dave L]

Birth to Jewish parents made one a physical Jew.

Circumcision was a sign of being committed to Mosaic law.

This is incorrect. Any related to Abraham became gentiles if not circumcised.

 

[marks]

Abraham's seed = Israel.

That's a single nation.

?

 

[Dave L]

That's a single nation.

?

Moses used Hebrews and Israel as synonyms of a single people.

 

[farouk]

Hello there, - @Dave L, @marks, @farouk, @CoreIssue, @Enoch111, @prism, @GISMYS_7, @tzcho2, @Doug, and all others taking part in this thread.

Not desiring to lose the subject of the thread. May I say that in relation to what has been said in the last few posts, concerning what was the Olive Tree of Israel. The believer in this dispensation is no longer grafted into Israel: for Israel as a nation has been laid aside (though temporarily) in unbelief, and is, at this present time in a Lo'ammi condition. There is no 'Israel' to be grafted into at this present time. They are, 'Not my People', and yet await that day, when God will say to them again, 'Thou art my People'. (Hosea 1:9,10; Hosea 1:23).

In Christ Jesus
Chris

Yes, I would generally agree with this, I think.

 

[farouk]

This is not what Paul says in Romans 11. If broken off unbelievers are grafted back into Israel through faith, Jesus and believers are Israel.

Romans 11 says that 'all Israel shall be saved' and speaks of 'the fulness of the Gentiles'. It refers to the backgrounds of those who stand by faith, but these distinctions have not disappeared in historical and prophetic terms.

 

[marks]

Moses used Hebrews and Israel as synonyms of a single people.

But how does that relate? We can say Hebrews, the Jews, Israel, we're still talking about a single people, one nation.

Is that not so?

 

[charity]

This is not what Paul says in Romans 11. If broken off unbelievers are grafted back into Israel through faith, Jesus and believers are Israel.

Hello @Dave L,

Romans was written prior to the laying aside of Israel in unbelief, which took place, with the quoting of Isaiah 6, by Paul, to the Jewish elders, at Acts 28. Paul received Divine revelation concerning the dispensation which was to follow, and you will see the details of it in the letters written by Him from prison, (Eph. Col. Phil. 1 & 2 Timothy and Titus). This knowledge had been 'hid in God' until that moment (Ephesians 3:9).

Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Doug]

Unless I missed it Hunt takes the biblical position that baptism is only a sign of being born again. It is not commanded urged as an act of obedience.

Traditional dispensationalism does go to for a number of areas as I indicated.

One has to understand there is not one singular teaching about dispensations. There are many with some treating it as gospel and salvation.

Hi
I do enjoy our discussion and I am not deprecating your stance...let everyone be persuaded in their mind per se
You are right ....there are many dispensational teachings and teachers...I can only speak for myself and to be honest those who I believe are in line with my "theology/exegesis".

Where in scripture does it say baptism is a sign...tongues was a sign(if I remember correctly)....but baptism ? Do you have scripture you can recall for that?

Talk soon

 

[Dave L]

Hello @Dave L,

Romans was written prior to the laying aside of Israel in unbelief, which took place, with the quoting of Isaiah 6, by Paul, to the Jewish elders, at Acts 28. Paul received Divine revelation concerning the dispensation which was to follow, and you will see the details of it in the letters written by Him from prison, (Eph. Col. Phil. 1 & 2 Timothy and Titus). This knowledge had been 'hid in God' until that moment (Ephesians 3:9).

Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

God did not lay them aside. Jesus is Israel along with us who believe in him. He removed the unbelievers making them gentiles with Jewish ethnicity. He reattaches any who accept Christ in faith. Paul says he was one of these.

 

[Dave L]

But how does that relate? We can say Hebrews, the Jews, Israel, we're still talking about a single people, one nation.

Is that not so?

Yes but Jesus is Israel along with those who believe in him.

 

[farouk]

Yes but Jesus is Israel along with those who believe in him.

Is there really a verse for this?

 

[Doug]

I think he broke it down exactly as I do. But his focus did not include innocence.

There is a lot more in what he said than your verses. Have a lot of years study to put them together. Some were not easy to see at first.
Innocence

Conscience

Mosaic law for Israel while conscience for everyone else. Israel was supposed to be the nation of missionaries. It failed.

The church age. But for the beginning conscience still was active in the world. The church is failing as well.

At the rapture the new covenant to the houses of Israel and Judah. Israel will then succeed at being missionaries. But mankind will continue in rebellion.

Then eternity

Hi There

Well said

Looking forward to more discussion ......Proverbs 27:17 Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.

Talk again friend

 

[Dave L]

Romans 11 says that 'all Israel shall be saved' and speaks of 'the fulness of the Gentiles'. It refers to the backgrounds of those who stand by faith, but these distinctions have not disappeared in historical and prophetic terms.

But, Jesus say the times of the gentiles remain until the end of the world. Today's Jews are gentiles some of which are included with the other gentiles being saved.

“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations [gentiles]; and then shall the end come.” (Matthew 24:14)

 

[farouk]

But, Jesus say the times of the gentiles remain until the end of the world. Today's Jews are gentiles some of which are included with the other gentiles being saved.

“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations [gentiles]; and then shall the end come.” (Matthew 24:14)

Matthew 24 does not seem to be speaking of the church. The Great Tribulation mentioned seems to be a unique, future event.

 

[Dave L]

Is there really a verse for this?

“Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.” (Galatians 3:16)

“And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.” (Galatians 3:29)

And Moses uses the terms "Hebrews" (Abraham's seed) along with Israel interchangeably.

 

[Dave L]

Matthew 24 does not seem to be speaking of the church. The Great Tribulation mentioned seems to be a unique, future event.

Matthew 24 speaks of the great Jewish tribulation of 70 AD. And Christian tribulation keeping them separate.

 

[CoreIssue]

This is incorrect. Any related to Abraham became gentiles if not circumcised.

False

 

[CoreIssue]

Hi
I do enjoy our discussion and I am not deprecating your stance...let everyone be persuaded in their mind per se
You are right ....there are many dispensational teachings and teachers...I can only speak for myself and to be honest those who I believe are in line with my "theology/exegesis".

Where in scripture does it say baptism is a sign...tongues was a sign(if I remember correctly)....but baptism ? Do you have scripture you can recall for that?

Talk soon

Actually, there are no verses that say tongues is a sign.

1 Peter 3:21 New International Version (NIV)
21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.a]">[a] It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

 

[Doug]

Actually, there are no verses that say tongues is a sign.

1 Peter 3:21 New International Version (NIV)
21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.a]">[a] It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Hi

Found this....1 Corinthians 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

1 Peter 3:21 is speaking of Israel and the resurrection of Jesus....see post below if you would like

1 PETER 3:18 BAPTISM SAVES