Divine Justification: greatly misunderstood or greatly misrepresented

[marks]

Yes, it amazes me who want to begin in the spirit and perfect in the flesh.

As if it were possible!

Much love!

 

[CharismaticLady]

I believe in the power of God

I also believe in reality, if being born again made everyone sinless, there would never be a babe in Christ, like the corinthian church who still struggled with certain besetting sins, paul would also not say he co it used to run the race because he had nothing achieved it yet

What saddens me is you ignore paul when he speaks about those who attempt to perfect their salvation in the flesh, and you appear to be just like the,

I understand both Paul and John. What you don't understand is there are two types of sin. 1 John 5:16-17

1 John 3:9 uses the context of 1 John 3:4 (sins unto death)
1 John 2:1 uses the context of 1 John 1:7 (sins not unto death called trespasses. Matthew 6:14-15)

 

[CharismaticLady]

Personally I think these sorts of changes do more to confuse the issues.

Much love!

If you want to justify sin, I can't change your mind. Only the Spirit can.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I understand both Paul and John. What you don't understand is there are two types of sin. 1 John 5:16-17

1 John 3:9 uses the context of 1 John 3:4 (sins unto death)
1 John 2:1 uses the context of 1 John 1:7 (sins not unto death called trespasses. Matthew 6:14-15)

What you do not understand is as James said, if we keep all the law yet STUMBLE in one point, we are guilty of all

sin unto death is a person who dies as a result of a sin, example would be drinking and driving which led to a persons death

a sin not unto death would be a sin where death did not occure, an example would be drunk driving which did not lead to your death

someone taught you wrong my friend

 

[marks]

Those who keep sinning have never been born again, so if you sin, you still have hope to BECOME a true Christian. It is not too late. You cannot become righteous in the flesh. Our nature must die and become born again. 2 Peter 1:9 says that our old sins (only) are cleansed. We are suppose to be empowered to not sin again. We MUST be born again of the Spirit of Christ. Otherwise we do not belong to Him. Romans 8:9

Why would you, as a Christian, be admonished to "put off the old man"? Why, as a Christian, would you be told to "mortify your members which are upon the earth?

Why would you be instructed to "offer your bodies a living sacrifice"?

Why would you be told to be transformed by the renewing of your mind? What would need renewing? If you have been made sinless?

Why be told that the spirit lusts against the flesh, and the flesh against the spirit, so you can't do what you want?

What can these things mean if the Christian no longer sins?

Much love!

 

[marks]

If you want to justify sin, I can't change your mind. Only the Spirit can.

And do I?

What say you?

Even so . . . I still think that the more interpretive the translation, the less usefulness it's going to have.

Much love!

 

[marks]

If you want to justify sin . . .

If you want to use underhanded innuendo . . .

 

[CharismaticLady]

And do I?

What say you?

Even so . . . I still think that the more interpretive the translation, the less usefulness it's going to have.

Much love!

If you believe 1 John 1:8 describes every Christian, then you should use a paraphrase.

 

[CharismaticLady]

If you want to use underhanded innuendo . . .

What other reason could there be to post against holiness with a misinterpretation of 1 John 1:8?

 

[marks]

If you believe 1 John 1:8 describes every Christian, then you should use a paraphrase.

I didn't really get your answer to my question there, just a deflection. How should I understand that?

Much love!

 

[marks]

to post against holiness

You are saying that I speak against holiness?

Seriously? That's what you are saying of me?

Much love!

 

[marks]

If you want to justify sin,

Let's not skip past this. You wrote it. What did you mean? Be bold! Be clear! Communicate. Or why bother?

Much love!

 

[CharismaticLady]

You are saying that I speak against holiness?

Seriously? That's what you are saying of me?

Much love!

I'm talking about those who misinterpret 1 John 1:8 to mean it is describing all Christians. Not everything is about you personally.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Let's not skip past this. You wrote it. What did you mean? Be bold! Be clear! Communicate. Or why bother?

Much love!

I did. I asked, why else would they want to believe it says all Christians are sinners. They see themselves as a sinner. They want to justify their weakness.
#49

 

[marks]

I did. I asked, why else would they want to believe it says all Christians are sinners. They see themselves as a sinner. They want to justify their weakness.
#49

OK, your claim then is that I seek to justify sin.

I'm talking about those who misinterpret 1 John 1:8 to mean it is describing all Christians. Not everything is about you personally.

That's called "passive-aggressive".

When these are your methods, I'd give some real consideration to what you think you are here to accomplish.

Much love!

 

[CharismaticLady]

OK, your claim then is that I seek to justify sin.



That's called "passive-aggressive".

When these are your methods, I'd give some real consideration to what you think you are here to accomplish.

Much love!

The TRUTH of God's Word. Don't you care what God means by His Words? I do. And 1 John 1:8 is not a Christian, but the next verse makes them one. John 8:32-36. The TRUTH shall make you free. Jesus frees us from sin, and if you believe His Words and He makes you free, you are NOT LYING if you say you don't sin. It is ONLY mankind since Adam that cannot claim to not sin without the cleansing blood of Jesus. What is so hard to understand? It is the gospel! There can only be one reason anyone could not understand this truth, and that is if they are still slaves to sin, and want to have eternal life at the same time. They are delusional.

 

[Enoch111]

And 1 John 1:8 is not a Christian, but the next verse makes them one. John 8:32-36.

Kindly stop spreading disinformation. Just start at the beginning of that epistle and see to whom it is addressed. Definitely not to pagans, unbelievers, or the unsaved.

And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full. (v 4)

The Bible says that the joy of the LORD is your strength. And joy is what believers possess, not unbelievers nor the ungodly. Joy is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. And it is to these believers that John writes:

6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

So now that you have seen the truth from the Word of God, you should go to the Lord and ask Him to forgive you of your sins and your foolishness in misrepresenting His Word.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Kindly stop spreading disinformation. Just start at the beginning of that epistle and see to whom it is addressed. Definitely not to pagans, unbelievers, or the unsaved.

And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full. (v 4)

The Bible says that the joy of the LORD is your strength. And joy is what believers possess, not unbelievers nor the ungodly. Joy is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. And it is to these believers that John writes:

6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

So now that you have seen the truth from the Word of God, you should go to the Lord and ask Him to forgive you of your sins and your foolishness in misrepresenting His Word.

It is to his congregation, and we all know that not everyone who comes to a church is saved. Certainly not everyone knows the meaning of the Word of God. You say you are a Christian, and yet you definitely do NOT know the Truth that can set you free. John 8:32-36

Rather you want to praise John Calvin and Martin Luther. Oy vey!

 

[Grailhunter]

Enoch did a pretty good job of defining justification...
But then the topic moved on to salvation and there are several elements / aspects to salvation that work together.
Then from that point, there is confusion as to the stability and permanency of salvation.
Some of the confusion and misunderstandings can be worked through if you take all of the elements of salvation and understand what they do.
Without that there are going to be extremes and even twisted doctrines like the Calvinists. You are going to have people that think that you are only forgiven once and if you sin from there you were not really saved....that is why I get to see multiple baptisms. Then you have the once saved always saved camp and the universal salvation camp.

Best to understand that the elements of salvation work together and all things are not decided before Judgment Day. That is the final determination of your destination. Saved does not mean "saved" from heaven. It means you are saved from hell. From there you work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

 

[Enoch111]

Best to understand that the elements of salvation work together and all things are not decided before Judgment Day.

Salvation was decided BEFORE the foundation of the world. Judgment day is for (a) the unbelieving, (b) the unsaved, and (c) the ungodly.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, To the praise of the glory of His grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the Beloved. (Ephesians 1:3-6)

We are "accepted in the Beloved" right now because we were predestinated to be perfected in Christ from before the foundation of the world. NOT AFTER JUDGMENT DAY.

Once again we should note "HIS GRACE". Salvation is entirely and totally based upon the grace of God and the finished work and merits of Christ. We are simply recipients of that grace. As I said earlier, too many people simply cannot grasp these fundamental truths.

Lest anyone mistake this for Calvinistic predestination, let's be very clear. God does NOT predestine anyone for salvation. However He does predestine those who are saved to be perfected and glorified IN CHRIST (Rom 8:29,30).