Do Hymns have any revelancy?

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reformed1689

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Then I am certain that you must agree that has to pertain to ANY instrument..... wailing electric guitar, included?
Do I believe those can be included? Yes, to a point.

They should accent the lyrics. Lyrics should take precedent. OR they should magnify the beauty of God and not draw attention to the one that is playing the instrument. For example, there should never be in a church service a guitarist coming out for a wailing guitar solo that is solely bringing attention to himself. That is wrong.

But I do not see a problem with a guitar in the background accenting the music that is being sung.
 

Willie T

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Do I believe those can be included? Yes, to a point.

They should accent the lyrics. Lyrics should take precedent. OR they should magnify the beauty of God and not draw attention to the one that is playing the instrument. For example, there should never be in a church service a guitarist coming out for a wailing guitar solo that is solely bringing attention to himself. That is wrong.

But I do not see a problem with a guitar in the background accenting the music that is being sung.
And the C & V for that "background" thought is … where?
 

Willie T

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We can all continue with all the smoke and mirrors we want, but it comes down to what we each individually consider what we want in worship.
 

Willie T

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There is no chapter and verse for that. This is the normative principle vs. regulative principle (which there is also no chapter and verse for). But there are plenty of verses that talk about pointing the attention to God rather than self.
Oh yeah, like David's famous dancing? Michael thought he was showcasing , and was struck barren for that assumption.
 

jshiii

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Do you think the songs we sing in church mean much in the way we think about Christianity?
This is a small excerpt from a book none of you will probably ever read:

The whole rise of Western Civilization — science and technology, medicine, the arts, constitutionalism, the jury system, free enterprise, literacy, increasing productivity, a rising standard of living, the high status of women — is attributable to one major fact: the West has been transformed by Christianity. True, the transformation is not yet complete. There are many battles ahead. But the point is that, even in what is still largely an early Christian civilization, God has showered us with blessings.

Many Christians do not realize it, but the Hope is the basis for many of the great old hymns of the faith, written before the modern era of evangelical despair and pessimism. Think about that the next time you sing Martin Luther's "A mighty Fortress is our God," Isaac Watts's "Jesus shall reign where'er the sun doth his successive journeys run," or George Duffield's "Stand up, stand up for Jesus." Do you really believe that Jesus is now leading us "from victory unto victory... till every foe is vanquished, and Christ is Lord indeed"? That is what the Church has historically believed. That is what they sang in their hymns. This can be seen most clearly in the traditional Christmas carols, which, like Athanasius' reflections on the Incarnation, are unabashed expectations of Christ's triumph over the world through the gospel. Carols such as "Come, thou long-expected Jesus," "O come, O come, Emmanuel," "Hark! the herald angels sing," "God rest you merry, gentlemen," and many others are written from the same basic perspective as the present book. The conviction that — as a result of His first advent — Christ is now reigning from heaven and conquering the earth underlies the message of "Joy to the world!":
No more let sins and sorrows grow,
Nor thorns infest the ground;
He comes to make his blessings flow
Far as the curse is found.
He rules the world with truth and grace,
And makes the nations prove
The glories of his righteousness
And wonders of his love.

The same is true of that great victory-oriented carol, "It came upon the midnight clear":

For lo, the days are hast'ning on,
By prophet bards foretold,
When with the ever-circling years
Comes round the age of gold;
When peace shall over all the earth
Its ancient splendors fling,
And the whole world give back the song
Which now the angels sing.

The Psalms: Our Hymnbook of Dominion
There is a very important connection between the Church's worldview and the Church's hymns. If your heart and mouth are filled with songs of victory, you will tend to have an eschatology of dominion; if, instead, your songs are fearful, expressing a longing for escape — or if they are weak, childish ditties — your worldview and expectations will be escapist and childish.

Historically, the basic hymnbook for the Church has been the Book of Psalms. The largest book of the Bible is the Book of Psalms, and God providentially placed it right in the middle of the Bible, so that we couldn't miss it! Yet how many churches use the Psalms in musical worship? It is noteworthy that the Church's abandonment of dominion eschatology coincided with the Church's abandonment of the Psalms.


The Psalms are inescapably Kingdom-oriented. They are full of conquest, victory, and the dominion of the saints. They remind us constantly of the warfare between God and Satan, they incessantly call us to do battle against the forces of evil, and they promise us that we shall inherit the earth. When the Church sang the Psalms — not just little snatches of them, but comprehensively, through the whole Psalter — she was strong, healthy, aggressive, and could not be stopped. That is why the devil has sought to keep us from singing the Psalms, to rob us of our inheritance. If we are to recapture the eschatology of dominion, we must reform the Church; and a crucial aspect of that reformation should be a return to the singing of Psalms. Listen to the historic hymns of the victorious Church:

All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD, And all the families of the nations will worship before Thee. (Ps. 22:27)


For evildoers will be cut off,
But those who wait for the LORD, they will inherit the earth.
Yet a little while, and the wicked man will be no more;
And you will look carefully for his place, and he will not be.
But the meek will inherit the earth,
And will delight themselves in abundant prosperity.(Ps. 37:9-11)

Come, behold the works of the LORD,
Who has wrought desolations in the earth.
He makes wars to cease to the end of the earth;
He breaks the bow and cuts the spear in two;
He burns the chariots with fire.
Cease striving and know that I am God;
I will be exalted among the nations,
I will be exalted in the earth. (Ps. 46:8-10)

0 clap your hands, all peoples;
Shout to God with the voice of joy.
For the LORD Most High is to be feared,
A great King over all the earth.
He subdues peoples under us,
And nations under our feet. (Ps. 47:1-3)

All the earth will worship Thee,
And will sing praises to Thee;
They will sing praises to Thy name. (Ps. 66:4)

He will rule from sea to sea,
And from the River to the ends of the earth.
The nomads of the desert will bow before Him;
And His enemies will lick the dust.
The kings of Tarshish and of the islands will bring presents;
The kings of Sheba and Seba will offer gifts.
All kings will bow down before Him;
All nations will serve Him. (Ps. 72:8-11)

All nations whom Thou hast made shall come and worship before Thee, 0 LORD;
And they shall glorify Thy name. (Ps. 86:9)

All the kings of the earth will give thanks to Thee, 0 LORD, When they have heard the words of Thy mouth. And they will sing of the ways of the LORD; For great is the glory of the LORD. (Ps. 138:4-5)

Let the godly ones exult in glory;
Let them sing for joy on their beds.
Let the high praises of God be in their mouth,
And a two-edged sword in their hand,
To execute vengeance on the nations,
And punishment on the peoples;
To bind their kings with chains,
And their nobles with fetters of iron;
To execute on them the judgment written;
This is an honor for all His godly ones.
Praise the LORD! (Ps. 149:5-9)




Thanks for this post!!! I'm calling my mother right now and asking her to grab one of the old Hymnals, which I think my childhood church is still using. Before they get tossed (hopefully never), I'm going to ask her to give me one for Christmas. ;)


The Lord Jesus Christ ONLY, is Worthy of all our Praise and Worship!
Eternity is a Very long Time!
 

Enoch111

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My intent was to point out that the early church obviously felt ALL the world would one day worship God, instead of 80% - 90% of Earth's population going to war with Him.
And this will be true after the Millennium, and then after the New Heavens and New Earth are established. But the focus of hymns should not be the severe judgments which will precede that, and things like Armageddon.
 
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Willie T

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And this will be true after the Millennium, and then after the New Heavens and New Earth are established. But the focus of hymns should not be the severe judgments which will precede that, and things like Armageddon.
We have to change so much of the Bible to make things come out like we, not the early church that we claim gave us all sorts of good guidance, have decided they are going to be. Even right there in your post we change their idea of "all the world" they were living in, into really meaning, not this world, but a new one.
 
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Pearl

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Hymns and spiritual songs and psalms do have an everlasting relevance as we are told in scripture: "be filled with the Spirit, speaking to one another with psalms, hymns, and songs from the Spirit. Sing and make music from your heart to the Lord, always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ."
 

Stan B

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Yet, I wonder what an abomination the very early Christians must have felt the introduction of such a garish thing as a squealing calliope organ into their worship services was...….. since, prior to that first one being installed, they had never heard such a noise in their churches.

Many things in all the different past generations have become to be accepted as "true church" to THAT group...… when their ancestors would surely have been turning over in their graves at such perceived blasphemy.

My wife was raised in the Church of Christ (no instruments, at all), and I spent 12 years in the CoC. We both feel that same way about beautiful Acapella music. We can't understand why anyone would have wanted to ruin what God gave each of us, by playing an organ or piano (or drums & guitar) over top of the voices.
 

Stan B

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Enoch

A Psalm of Praise 150
Praise the Lord!
Praise God in His sanctuary;
Praise Him in His mighty expanse.
Praise Him for His mighty deeds;
Praise Him according to His excellent greatness.

Praise Him with trumpet sound;
Praise Him with harp and lyre.
Praise Him with timbrel and dancing;
Praise Him with stringed instruments and pipe.
Praise Him with loud cymbals;
Praise Him with resounding cymbals.
Let everything that has breath praise the Lord.
Praise the Lord!

Music was apparently very important for Temple worship, created with balconies on either side to accommodate antiphonal choirs. Musical instruments seem to be an essential part of Temple worship.

In my experience, there is nothing more beautiful on this earth, than listening or playing a magnificent pipe organ.

Going back 50 years ago during the years when I was studying organ, my very favourites were the choral preludes Bach wrote, one for each Sunday of the year. As I played his beautiful praises to God, I sensed at oneness between the two of us that I have never before experienced, as if our souls seemingly merged together as one as I played his most inspirational music; a gift from God.
 
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Willie T

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Enoch

A Psalm of Praise 150
Praise the Lord!
Praise God in His sanctuary;
Praise Him in His mighty expanse.
Praise Him for His mighty deeds;
Praise Him according to His excellent greatness.

Praise Him with trumpet sound;
Praise Him with harp and lyre.
Praise Him with timbrel and dancing;
Praise Him with stringed instruments and pipe.
Praise Him with loud cymbals;
Praise Him with resounding cymbals.
Let everything that has breath praise the Lord.
Praise the Lord!

Music was apparently very important for Temple worship, created with balconies on either side to accommodate antiphonal choirs. Musical instruments seem to be an essential part of Temple worship.

In my experience, there is nothing more beautiful on this earth, than listening or playing a magnificent pipe organ.

Going back 50 years ago during the years when I was studying organ, my very favourites were the choral preludes Bach wrote, one for each Sunday of the year. As I played his beautiful praises to God, I sensed at oneness between the two of us that I have never before experienced, as if our souls seemingly merged together as one as I played his most inspirational music; a gift from God.
Do you feel a person with their guitar cannot know the same closeness?
 

Stranger

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It is never the question of the instrument used. It is a question of the music. God has music that is worshipful to Him. satan has music that is worshipful to him.

What is the source of the music is the question.

Stranger
 

Ezra

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I was trying to point out that most of the old songs are patterned after the Psalms. Yet, though we sing songs from that book, we don't seem to expect the future to be that way, at all. None of the Psalms speak of Satan growing more and more powerful all the time until the pitifully few Christians that will be left in the world have no hope left but a "Rapture Rescue" while God proceeds to slaughter the vast majority of the world's total population. The original Christians never seem to have envisioned our future to be that way.

Go back up and read the Psalms I quoted. Starting with the first one up there, they speak of the world changing and almost all people in every part of the world eventually worshiping God while we are all still living right here on this dirt ball called Earth. I don't think there is even one Psalm written about getting raptured out of a world that has predominately gone to the Devil.
the hymns are very important they was wrote out of hardship .nothing wrong with using other songs along the way either.but we should never do away with thee hymnals .they have stood the test of time..
 

Ezra

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We can't understand why anyone would have wanted to ruin what God gave each of us, by playing an organ or piano (or drums & guitar) over top of the voices.
combined together the right atmosphere anointing it sounds wonderful i know churches who think drums are evil. but yet allow piano and a guitar. the 2 instruments used in a saloon in westerns
 

Nancy

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My point was never to try to tackle the rationalization of the rapture dream. I know that is too ingrained to resist. My intent was to point out that the early church obviously felt ALL the world would one day worship God, instead of 80% - 90% of Earth's population going to war with Him.

"...the early church obviously felt ALL the world would one day worship God..."

I wonder if this has anything to do with: Romans 14:11 "For it is written: “ As I live, says the LORD, Every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall confess to God.”

My take on this is that it also goes for those who refuse to bow on their own?

Not to derail, but here is a beautiful a Capella Christmas song...my favorite actually! Done in French, but easy enough to look up the English lyrics :)

 

Willie T

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"...the early church obviously felt ALL the world would one day worship God..."

I wonder if this has anything to do with: Romans 14:11 "For it is written: “ As I live, says the LORD, Every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall confess to God.”

My take on this is that it also goes for those who refuse to bow on their own?

Not to derail, but here is a beautiful a Capella Christmas song...my favorite actually! Done in French, but easy enough to look up the English lyrics :)

I think one of the themes of the Bible is that God wants nothing to do with worship that He has to beat out of people.
 
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