Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Arnie Manitoba said:kjw47
Show me where in the bible it says .... "seek Ye first The Kingdom of Charles Russel and his Kingdom of Jehovah's Witnesses"
After all , that is what you have been taught and what you believe
Right ?
williemac said:The bible says Jesus is the focus. Jesus said that when the Holy Spirit comes, He will testify of Me. And by the way. Jesus said that living forever comes to those who partake of His flesh and blood. That is a Jesus teaching. He also said that whoever believes on Him will not perish but have everlasting life. That is a Jesus teaching. In Luke 18:10-14, He spoke of two men praying to God. The one shared all the good things he was doing, and the other beat his breast, confessed his sin, and asked for mercy. Guess which one went away justified? The conclusion was that everyone who exalts himself will be humbled and everyone who humbles himself will be abased. That is a Jesus teaching.
And I don't have a problem with John20:17. Do not cling to Me, was good advice, because He was not hanging around. And His calling the Father "My God" is no problem with me at all. However, He did promise that both He and the Father would come and make their home with His believers. This is fulfilled in the sending of the Holy Spirit. So, the relationship is realized in the indwelling presence of Jesus and the Father, by way of the Holy Spirit. I don't really care if you refuse to call that a trinity. It is just a man made term. But the facts do not change. They want to inhabit you and I by way of the Holy Spirit. And this is my testimony. Is it yours?
Arnie Manitoba said:.
kjw 47
You teach that Jesus Christ is Michael the Archangel ... right ?
You teach that the Kingdom of God is actually The Kingdom of Jehovah's Witnesses who meet in Kingdom Halls ... right ?
You teach there are two Gods .... Jehovah God , and a Jesus who is "a god" .... right ?
You teach that 2000 years of Christianity was wrong until the 1800's when Charley Russel "fixed it" .... right ?
You do not use the Holy Bible as the authority , instead you use Brooklyn doctrine as authority .... right ?
You have just constructed a twonity ... add the Spirit and you have a trinitykjw47 said:One God= YHWH(Jehovah) and his son whom his power goes through to make him have godlike qualities.
Arnie Manitoba said:You have just constructed a twonity ... add the Spirit and you have a trinity
Awesome question. In my discussions years ago with J.W. friends, I was told they came to this conclusion because to them the term "Michael the archangel" means that there is only one archangel. So when Jesus comes with the voice of an archangel, it must be Michael, since he is the only one. Therefore He must be Michael. There are so many holes in this conclusion that it is astounding. My first name is William. I am a painter. Therefore if there are ten "bill's" in a room, and we wanted to differentiate, between us, I could be called " Bill, the painter". So I guess this mean that there is only one painter in the universe, by their logic. :blink: ^_^ But in answer to Heb.1:5..." To which of the angels did He ever say...You are My Son. Today I have begotten you"? None!Arnie Manitoba said:kjw 47
So you are saying that Jesus Christ is not the Son of God .... rather , he is Michael The archangel come in human form .
Arnie Manitoba said:kjw 47
So you are saying that Jesus Christ is not the Son of God .... rather , he is Michael The archangel come in human form .
williemac said:Awesome question. In my discussions years ago with J.W. friends, I was told they came to this conclusion because to them the term "Michael the archangel" means that there is only one archangel. So when Jesus comes with the voice of an archangel, it must be Michael, since he is the only one. Therefore He must be Michael. There are so many holes in this conclusion that it is astounding. My first name is William. I am a painter. Therefore if there are ten "bill's" in a room, and we wanted to differentiate, between us, I could be called " Bill, the painter". So I guess this mean that there is only one painter in the universe, by their logic. :blink: ^_^ But in answer to Heb.1:5..." To which of the angels did He ever say...You are My Son. Today I have begotten you"? None!
To repeat the question to kjw:
So you are saying that Jesus Christ is not the Son of God .... rather , he is Michael The archangel come in human form ? yes or no.
Without Him, nothing was mad that was made. Michael the archangel was created by Jesus. The bible doesn't say that Jesus Himself will do the shouting. It says He will come with a shout, with the voice of the archangel. All we really know is that there will be a shout when Jesus comes. Who says that is Michael anyway? You think there is only one archangel? Dan.10:6 states that Michael is ONE of the chief princes.kjw47 said:Michael came to earth and stood up for mortals( Daniel 12:1) as he will during the end.
He didn't become Gods son or be called Gods son until he was baptized and God spoke from heaven and said---This is my son the beloved whom I have approved( he had to be approved) Listen to him.
Yes upon Jesus return he comes with the voice of the archangel( Michael) --is it his voice? or did he borrow it?
Also war in heaven--Michael battled satan and his angels( Michael leading Gods armies) and cast them to the vicinity of the earth.( first ride of the white horse)( this is rev 6) He receives his crown--only Jesus is awaiting the crown to be appointed king of Gods kingdom( Daniel 7:13-15)---the second ride is at Harmageddon--Jesus leading Gods armies--same horse--same rider--only Jesus was given the task to defeat satan.
williemac said:Without Him, nothing was mad that was made. Michael the archangel was created by Jesus. The bible doesn't say that Jesus Himself will do the shouting. It says He will come with a shout, with the voice of the archangel. All we really know is that there will be a shout when Jesus comes. Who says that is Michael anyway? You think there is only one archangel? Dan.10:6 states that Michael is ONE of the chief princes.
And why do you think that Jesus is any kind of angel? Heb.1:6 tells us that the ALL the angels are told to worship Him. Not all the 'other' angels. That whole chapter is dedicated to proclaiming the superiority of Jesus over the angels. The very first part reveals that Jesus is heir of all things, through whom all the worlds were made, and is the express image of God, being the brightness of His glory. Jesus Himself told His disciples..." If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father". This is what begotten means. It is about being of the same substance and nature, having come from out of (born).
Jesus is of the same substance, nature, and glory of the Father. He sits at His right hand, shares His glory and throne, and was co creator of all things. The Father didn't create the Son any more than my father created me. I was in my father before I was born. Jesus was always and is now, part of who God is.
gerryrenaud said:Faux Christians, such as the JW's, led by their false prophets have always existed and will continue to exist to test the faith of true followers of Jesus Christ. The attempted destruction of true Christianity has been going on since Christ walked the earth. If He and His Apostles were unable to convince the world that Christ is God, and the only way to the Father is through Him, how on earth are we as weakened versions of Christ's disciples ever going to do it. All we can do is fight the good fight as Paul taught and leave the rest in His hands. Christ will sort out the wheat from the chaff as that is His job to judge all those deemed righteous enough to enter the Kingdom. Pseudo Christian Christians religions like the JW's are to be pitied more than preached to concerning the Godhead, which includes Christ and the Holy Spirit, because our efforts are better served by reaching out to those who have not been brain washed by sinners who will be ultimately judged by Christ. These sham religions have always existed to purposely blend their Judaism into our Christianity. Christianity has been harmed by this muddling of faiths for 2K years and it will continue to the end of time. Christians can take back our faith by drawing out the distinctions that indeed separate Judaism from Christianity. This is why I call upon all Christians to adhere to the strict doctrine of the Christ' Gospel and learning to set aside the doctrine of Moses and other Jewish Prophets for the Faux Christians of the world like the JW's, because they make better Jews than they do Christians.
gerryrenaud said:kjw47: What you refer to as "trinity" religion, is in fact what Christianity is. In other words, if you do not believe that Jesus Christ is "God", part of the Trinity (Godhead) then you are indeed not a Christian. The closes identity that might describe you and your fellow believers is one a variant sect of Judaism. The Jews also except that Christ was real but nothing more than a prophet who blasphemed against Moses and the religion that he created for them. Please submit the location of this verse you wrote and is it from the JW handbook that is sometimes referred to as a bible: "Therefore, keep on seeking-- FIRST-- the kingdom and his(YHWH(Jehovah) righteousness first and all these other things will be added( sustenance, covering, spirituality)"
So chief 'of the' angels is not the same as chief princes? What are the chief princes chief of? No, archangel is translated chief angel, not chief OF THE angels. And there are other chief angels.kjw47 said:Yes there are other ones called chief princes--but one is called archangel--it translates-- chief of the angels.
Rev 3:14--clearly states Jesus was the beginning of creation by God.---Yhwh(Jehovah) created Michael first and last directly--all other things were created through him--he wasn't called Jesus until born as a mortal. It was always Michael who stood up for the sons of Daniel( mortal men--true servants)
The word is not worship when it concerns the messiah( Gods appointed king)-- obeisance is given to a king.
There are differing grades of angels--seraphs, cherubs-etc--- obviously each group has a chief prince--but one is over all of them--archangel( Michael)williemac said:So chief 'of the' angels is not the same as chief princes? What are the chief princes chief of? No, archangel is translated chief angel, not chief OF THE angels. And there are other chief angels.
As well...There is no specific passage that names Jesus as Michael before His incarnation. That is nothing less than an assumption and connection of convenience, bent on lowering His status. And what do you mean it was 'always' Michael who stood up for the sons of Daniel? Like you were there?
As far as 'obeisance', no matter. ALL the angels were told to do it...not all the "other" angels. As well, the beginning of the creation "of" God is not the same as "by" God. Your religion deliberately changed the words used. They insert them as well, because "other" is an inserted word into the text. All things were created through Him and by Him and for Him...not all "other " things. Jesus said.."I am the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, who is and was, and is to come...The Almighty" (Rev.1:8) And in case you don't think that was Jesus, it is repeated in vs.11, adding..."the first and the last". And in case you still don't think that was Jesus, it is repeated in vs. 17, where it is specifically Jesus who says.." I am the first and the last" He calls Himself the first and the last, which also means alpha and omega.
Further to that, here is Isaiah 9:6,7
6For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7Of the increase of His government and peace
There will be no end,
You haven't proven this about Michael. Neither have you proven that Jesus will personally do the shouting when He comes. Neither have you proven that He is Michael the archangel. If this information was true, then it would be pasted all over the bible, or at least plainly enough so as to remove all doubt. It cannot be contrived through mere assumption or mere association, which is the mistake many make in coming up with many doctrines. There are plenty enough of so called bible experts who are in over their head or out of their calling. They typically invent their own rules of bible interpretation and follow them religiously in spite of obvious biblical contradiction to their conclusions.kjw47 said:There are differing grades of angels--seraphs, cherubs-etc--- obviously each group has a chief prince--but one is over all of them--archangel( Michael)
williemac said:You haven't proven this about Michael. Neither have you proven that Jesus will personally do the shouting when He comes. Neither have you proven that He is Michael the archangel. If this information was true, then it would be pasted all over the bible, or at least plainly enough so as to remove all doubt. It cannot be contrived through mere assumption or mere association, which is the mistake many make in coming up with many doctrines. There are plenty enough of so called bible experts who are in over their head or out of their calling. They typically invent their own rules of bible interpretation and follow them religiously in spite of obvious biblical contradiction to their conclusions.
