Do Men Have Authority Over Women?

[reformed1689]

Saved physically would be an idiotic position to take with this scripture.
Childbearing in this era was a rather dangerous event.
This scripture is mentioning moral conduct.

And we know from other writings of Paul this is not and cannot be talking about her giving birth gives her eternal salvation.

 

[reformed1689]

Depending on what a writer says it can be either, from Himself, or God. So there is a thing to be cautious about. I do not have time to argue back and forth with another person as no one grows from the situations.

God bless you!

So you basically pick and choose which parts of the Bible you like and which parts you don't. Got it.

 

[amadeus]

The Word of God is Scripture. Are Paul's writings Scripture, yes or no? And yes, Paul did say women can't preach in church as that would require speaking...

But where and what is Church?

We should not confuse the physical roles of and males and females with the spiritual roles of members in the Body of Christ, that is, in the Church. The former [the physical] is only a type or shadow of the latter [the spiritual].

"And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence." Col 1:18

As the natural women is to receive the seed of the man to bear natural children, so is the spiritual woman [the Church, consisting of both physical males and females] to receive the spiritual seed of man to bear spiritual children. Consider in this Paul's written words:

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." Gal 3:28

There is a male role and a female role. In the Church, the male is the presenter of the Word (the seed via the preacher, testifier, or singer and so forth) and the female is the Church that listens "silently" and receives.

Any natural man or natural woman who silently listens and receives is the spiritual woman. Any natural man or natural woman who presents the Word is the spiritual man. Jesus was the Man, and all of those who listened to him were the Woman.

Jesus is the Head while the Church is the Body (of Christ).

 

[Grailhunter]

And we know from other writings of Paul this is not and cannot be talking about her giving birth gives her eternal salvation.

One cancels the other out?
So can you produce a scripture that specifically says women are saved any other way?
Of course I will tell you that it is a very Jewish way of thinking. Childbearing in the Old Testament is how women were included in the covenant with God.... because they did not have anything to be circumcised.

 

[reformed1689]

One cancels the other out?
So can you produce a scripture that specifically says women are saved any other way?
Of course I will tell you that it is a very Jewish way of thinking. Childbearing in the Old Testament is how women were included in the covenant with God.... because they did not have anything to be circumcised.

For by grace you are saved through faith.

 

[Grailhunter]

For by grace you are saved through faith.

The word woman is not there and a lot of scriptures are about men. Need the word woman in there.

Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.
How many of these do you think there are.

 

[reformed1689]

The word woman is not there and a lot of scriptures are about men. Need the word woman in there.

Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.
How many of these do you think there are.

No sir, all you are proving is you have no idea how to interpret Scripture faithfully and accurately.

 

[Grailhunter]

No sir, all you are proving is you have no idea how to interpret Scripture faithfully and accurately.

And you can't read....Touché!

 

[Bob Estey]

Peter and Paul believed a lot of things... Yet you do not keep talking about how Paul believed it was just and true to hunted down Christians and killed them... Yet he did believe it was just at one time!!! Bet you don't think he believed that way now! Of course not... What else could he no longer believe???

Gal 3:27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Did Paul write down exactly what God told him to write down in Gal 3:27? The Bible does not Lie right ?

Remember... It was a Female whom first saw and spoke to the risen Lord

Jesus speaks through His Body... His Body is not just made up of men!!!

Paul

The Bible does not lie in that we know Paul wrote those letters.

 

[Bob Estey]

The Word of God is Scripture. Are Paul's writings Scripture, yes or no? And yes, Paul did say women can't preach in church as that would require speaking.

If you do not see Paul's writings as Scripture based on that definition, why do you see other writings as Scripture?

I would say the Word of God are those times God and Jesus are quoted in the Bible.

 

[Bob Estey]

Yeah you are misapplying the Scripture there. It does not say women cannot do ministry.

But Paul said women can't speak when they are in a church.

 

[Grailhunter]

Paul was singling women out in a very Jewish manner. Women should not preach, or have authority over men, the head of the woman is the man, and they should not talk in church. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety….Then Let not a widow be taken into the number under threescore years old, having been the wife of one man, Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints' feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work.

Any of this for the men for any reason? There is an apparent pattern here, singling out women to degrade them, setting them up for a second rate status in society and the church. Degrade? Sounds cruel but it is actually the Jewish norm. Paul is proposing a continuance of Jewish customs in Christianity. And it happened.

Women were not allowed to go off with their suitors. Dating does not become a custom until the 1900's and it is mostly connected to the advent of the automobile. Many times ladies were not allowed to pick their husbands. Dating versus Arranged Marriages. Still a custom in different areas of the world, but for Christians it became less frequent during the 1800's and in the America's the early 1700's. But not outlawed until the marriage act of 1950, which outlawed arranged marriages, and enabled women to divorce their husbands, and made it illegal for men to have multiple wives.. Polygamy was not address by Ecumenical councils. But for Christians, polygamy was "phased out" around the turn of the first millennium.

So we are debating whether women were allowed to speak in church? Women were not allowed to speak in pubic. And as most of you know the women's rights movement does not occur until the 1900's when they received the right to vote. And as a whole the Christian churches were dead set against all of that...and some still to this day. What would Christ do?

On the other hand Christ did not express this belief or attitude towards women. He defended them and went to their aid. The story of the adulterous woman brought before Him. He gave the woman at the well a mission to accomplish, which was something He knew His own Apostles could not do. Women funded His ministry….He had a following of women and they appeared at the cross with Him when the Apostles were off hiding somewhere. Messiah means anointed one….only women anointed Him….One of the most significant events in Christianity was given to Mary Magdalene to proclaim His resurrection. The females believed, the men thought they were seeing a ghost.

Then we can get into the study where it looks like Paul’s attitude towards women changed as his ministry went a long. Appointing women as deacons?

Some translate Roman 16:1 as a female deacon and the actual scriptures seem to support this reading….I commend now to you Phoebe the sister of us also a servant of the church in Cenchrea. The word used is “also” as in an equivalent to them as servants of the church…

 

[reformed1689]

But Paul said women can't speak when they are in a church.

You really need to do some research on what that means.

 

[reformed1689]

I would say the Word of God are those times God and Jesus are quoted in the Bible.

Yeah you said that, but how do you know those were quoted accurately? Your position doesn't hold water. Nor is it within orthodox Christianity. You basically just pick and choose what youwant to believe. Wishy Washy sir.

 

[robert derrick]

To put it simply, if you follow Scripture, yes.

Wives are to submit to husbands.
Women are not to have authority over men in the church.
Women are to remain quiet in the church (yes that means women pastors is wholly against Scripture).

To put it simply, husbands have authority over wives, if their wives submit to it.

And if the wives are godly, then they will be willing to, but only a fool submits to a fool.

And no male nor female ought submit to sin, no matter what the authority:

Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

I have yet to hear the preaching on men being the head of the woman, as Christ is Head of the church, go on to the full teaching: even as God is the Head of Christ.

That part is always mysteriously left out.

If the man is head to the woman as God is to Christ, there would be no submission issue at all, because God and Christ are One with the same authority.

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

In the end, being the head authority is being the one to answer for the family and household.

I don't send my wife out to deal with people who have a problem with us, even is she were the problem.

 

[robert derrick]

To put it simply, if you follow Scripture, yes.

Wives are to submit to husbands.
Women are not to have authority over men in the church.
Women are to remain quiet in the church (yes that means women pastors is wholly against Scripture).

What? you ain't gonna let no stupid woman tell you that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?

Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

So, once a woman enters a church building, she's not to speak a single word? Not even ask where the ladies room is? Not cry fire when there is a fire? I mean, if God is telling all women to keep silent and not speak at all...

The problem is people who do not take all Scripture in context of all Scripture, so that we would know God can't be saying certain things at certain times, and so Scripture elsewhere will always clarify and prove all Scripture everywhere: Scripture interprets itself rightly every time it's tried.

The answer to the apparent stupidity of such a law, and God is never stupid, is found here:

But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

The commandment is to hold a decent and orderly assembly, where no one speaks out of turn, nor disrupts it by silly or foolish behavior, including babbling on in their unknown tongue, because they are so 'happy in the Spirit'. And this most often includes women, when they are given liberty to speak freely in assembly of men and women.

Paul was putting to order disorderly assemblies, by declaring that we assemble together for knowledge, not for displays of spiritual excitement.

For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Let all things be done decently and in order.

 

[robert derrick]

To put it simply, if you follow Scripture, yes.

Wives are to submit to husbands.
Women are not to have authority over men in the church.
Women are to remain quiet in the church (yes that means women pastors is wholly against Scripture).

Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head. But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

The early churches were not the single-speaker dominated churches of today, but were assemblies of the saints, who spoke freely one at a time by inspiration of the Spirit: prophesying simply means speaking the things of God, which is all ministry of teaching, preaching, exhorting, admonishing one another by the word of God. (1 Cor 14)

Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

One another is one another, both male and female, assembling together.

Any Christian can teach, preach, prophesy, and bear witness to Jesus Christ, including exhorting and admonishing in the faith of righteousness: any person can speak the truth in assembly of the saints.

And, I would sooner hear a woman with hair long enough to cover her head, then a hippy guy with it tied back in a bun 'discreetly'. Dittoes for a woman with a man's haircut.

Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

Do not children and men learn in silence with all subjection to the word being prophesied and preached by the Spirit?? Are only women to learn in silence while someone is ministering and speaking the word of God??

Scripture only particularly speaks to women in these cases, because it is for the dumb blondes, who don't know how to be quiet during a show, but is always interrupting and asking what is happening, rather than simply watching for themselves to see what happens to the end. Or they jump up and start talking, before another has chance to stop and sit down.

As a rule, women do not handle authority well, which is whenever someone is speaking, while others are to remain silent and wait their turn. Women, like children in general, don't know how to wait their turn when anyone can freely stand to speak, especially when they are just burning to say something really important: speaking by the Spirit.

The spirit of the prophet should always be subject to the prophet and the prophetess.

What would the segregators of men and women in synagogues and churches say to Deborah? Sit down and shut up woman? Mind your place lady?

And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

Is it not a shame for any child or man to speak and interrupt others anywhere, especially in the church where the Spirit is speaking to the churches by the one ministering and prophesying: Paul is only establishing proper order in churches where anyone was free to stand and speak and prophecy to one another, and even the prophets were to limit their time speaking and not hog the whole show.

 

[robert derrick]

To put it simply, if you follow Scripture, yes.

Wives are to submit to husbands.
Women are not to have authority over men in the church.
Women are to remain quiet in the church (yes that means women pastors is wholly against Scripture).

But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

Women are not to usurp authority over men: women don't try to tell men how to be men and behave as men. Women don't tell men what to do with authority, when they have no authority to do so, such as in business and gvt. Women ministers do not tell men to do this, do that, be this way, be that way in the churches.

Women ministers ought not have any authority to tell any man what to do: I would not minister in any church, where a female pastor has authority to tell me what to do or not to do. If a woman minister wants to be 'in charge', then fine. Let stupid men obey her.

I walked out of one service, when some woman started trying to tell 'us men' how to behave in certain matters as Christians. Another woman tried to call 'just the men' down to the altar to 'pray over them'.

Are you kidding me? No, I walked out on that one too.

Usurping authority over another is telling someone what to do, when you have no authority to do so, whether men or women: teaching and preaching the Scriptures, that apply to all hearers, is the authority of God's word over all.

And so once again, it is women as a rule, excluding exceptions, who do not know how to handle authority, especially not over men.

We have no authority over any one else by ministry: them that obey the truth of God are obeying God, not the minister. It is only if we teach our own things as Scripture, that we usurp authority over God's people, that foolishly obey our word, rather than Jesus' only.

 

[robert derrick]

Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

Jesus is not rebuking this Jezebel for teaching, but for teaching lies that destroy God's people.

This Jezebel could have been a man or a woman.

Ministry includes men and women, where there is no difference int he body of Christ: all may minister and prophecy decently and in order.

And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men. And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.

And all false ministers and christs, both men and women, seen here spiritually are devils that devour the sheep.

 

[Bob Estey]

You really need to do some research on what that means.

Paul says women aren't supposed to speak in churches. Are you refuting Paul?