Do you accept this a Biblical fact or fiction?:

[Abaxvahl]

We live for God by faith, not by knowledge although many act on certain points as if knowledge was essential and that they have it! Who has all knowledge, but God alone?

What is important to man? What is important to God?

"Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith." Habakkuk 2:4

"For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith." Rom 1:17

"And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing." I Cor 13:2

In order to have or keep faith with something you have to know to one degree or another the object of your faith. Indeed love is greatest and we live by faith but that is not contrary at all to definitely holding to things God revealed to us, such as the Trinity, that things were made out of nothing, the Incarnation of Christ, and so on. One can live by faith and hold to these things, as St. Paul himself did who you quoted here. Living by faith is not an excuse for a lazy and asinine anti-intellectualism when the Lord gave us an intellect and perfects it in us by the knowledge He reveals.

 

[amadeus]

In order to have or keep faith with something you have to know to one degree or another the object of your faith. Indeed love is greatest and we live by faith but that is not contrary at all to definitely holding to things God revealed to us, such as the Trinity, that things were made out of nothing, the Incarnation of Christ, and so on. One can live by faith and hold to these things, as St. Paul himself did who you quoted here. Living by faith is not an excuse for a lazy and asinine anti-intellectualism when the Lord gave us an intellect and perfects it in us by the knowledge He reveals.

How is it that we know anything true except God has given it to us? The only time I ever encountered the Trinity as part of the curriculum where I attended was when I was growing up as a Catholic and they never used the Bible to teach what they taught me.

I have been out of active Catholicism for close to 60 years. All of my Bible readings/studies and discussions with people on forums have never given reason to embrace the Trinity as truth. It has been years since I have heard anything new on the subject.

Men decided among the Catholics centuries ago to travel that way, with the Trinity that is, but Jesus never gave us a sermon on it scripture nor did the Apostle Paul who wrote most of the NT. The Protestants separated from the Catholics but they carried a whole lot of Catholic things with them. What is Truth? Indeed as I have already said, it is Jesus! Who has seen him face to face? Who failed to recognize him on the road to Emmaus? Who failed to recognize him outside of his tomb?

Should we follow the majority on this? Where was the majority when they crucified Jesus? Where was the majority when Jesus was teaching hard sayings so that many walked no more with him?

Consider what faith according to what is written here:

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Heb 11:1

Do you "see" better than I do? Why is it that you seem to insist that I should follow you? I simply follow the Lord as He leads me and for the moment in this things He is not leading me to a Trinity!

What did the Apostle Paul mean when he wrote this?

"For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise." II Cor 10:12

Be blessed and have a good day in the Lord!

 

[Abaxvahl]

How is it that we know anything true except God has given it to us? The only time I ever encountered the Trinity as part of the curriculum where I attended was when I was growing up as a Catholic and they never used the Bible to teach what they taught me.

I have been out of active Catholicism for close to 60 years. All of my Bible readings/studies and discussions with people on forums have never given reason to embrace the Trinity as truth. It has been years since I have heard anything new on the subject.

Men decided among the Catholics centuries ago to travel that way, with the Trinity that is, but Jesus never gave us a sermon on it scripture nor did the Apostle Paul who wrote most of the NT. The Protestants separated from the Catholics but they carried a whole lot of Catholic things with them. What is Truth? Indeed as I have already said, it is Jesus! Who has seen him face to face? Who failed to recognize him on the road to Emmaus? Who failed to recognize him outside of his tomb?

Should we follow the majority on this? Where was the majority when they crucified Jesus? Where was the majority when Jesus was teaching hard sayings so that many walked no more with him?

Consider what faith according to what is written here:

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Heb 11:1

Do you "see" better than I do? Why is it that you seem to insist that I should follow you? I simply follow the Lord as He leads me and for the moment in this things He is not leading me to a Trinity!

What did the Apostle Paul mean when he wrote this?

"For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise." II Cor 10:12

Be blessed and have a good day in the Lord!

Jesus discussed and taught the Trinity a multitude of times. I agree, what is true is revealed for it is God Himself that gives truth to things, even in the depths of our conscience He speaks His truth, and day to day His speech is poured forth and night to night His knowledge is made manifest. The Trinity is not a thing for the majority, for there were periods of the Church where it was in fact a minority. I do not follow it because it is a majority, if the majority goes the broad way may the Lord have mercy on me and preserve me in the narrow way! They are irrelevant, God is the one who matters.

There is no comparison going on or self-commendation, nor do I insist you follow me, God is the true judge.

 

[amadeus]

Jesus discussed and taught the Trinity a multitude of times. I agree, what is true is revealed for it is God Himself that gives truth to things, even in the depths of our conscience He speaks His truth, and day to day His speech is poured forth and night to night His knowledge is made manifest. The Trinity is not a thing for the majority, for there were periods of the Church where it was in fact a minority. I do not follow it because it is a majority, if the majority goes the broad way may the Lord have mercy on me and preserve me in the narrow way! They are irrelevant, God is the one who matters.

There is no comparison going on or self-commendation, nor do I insist you follow me, God is the true judge.

A better answer, in my opinion, than what I have received from many Trinitarians. I seldom come on strong against the Trinitarians and I am very far away from the Oneness Jesus Only group where I began my non-Catholic walk with God in 1976. I left them in 1987.

I believe that God wants us to love Him. Just saying, "God I love you", does not accomplish His purpose when they are only empty words spoken. Anyone can speak empty words, but God always knows what is in the heart of each of us without regard for such words spoken.

 

[Wrangler]

Looking at this passage:

Genesis 19:24-25 KJV

Yea, ignore the passages where Angels actually destroyed the cities.

 

[Wrangler]

He did not consider it wrong to be called god.

LOL. Trinitarians wish that was the proper interpretation of Scripture.

 

[Wrangler]

Jesus discussed and taught the Trinity a multitude of times.

No. Jesus never taught the trinity once.

 

[Wrangler]

You are just mad because God didn't make it easy by always saying Father when referring ot God the Father, and Son when referring ot God the son.

Wrong. The Bible is clear that the Father is God. Not once does Scripture commit the blasphemy of explicitly saying God the Son.

We too are sons of God but that does not make us God any more than anyone Chosen and sent by God, including his 1st son.

 

[Wrangler]

How is that an anti-Trinitarian statement? Does not the Nicene Creed recited every Sunday say "I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of Heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible"? Surely you think that the Creed is Trinitarian though.

LOL Because the Nicene Creed is a pro-trinitarian statement, which invokes dualism after the part you quoted.

Let me ask you this; can you admit there are many lords in the Bible who are NOT almighty God, the LORD of Heaven’s Armies?

 

[Abaxvahl]

LOL Because the Nicene Creed is a pro-trinitarian statement, which invokes dualism after the part you quoted.

Let me ask you this; can you admit there are many lords in the Bible who are NOT almighty God, the LORD of Heaven’s Armies?

IIRC there are many who are called "lord" in the Scripture. There is a passage in the prophets where God Himself makes a point of this and says "I will even remove the name 'lord' [referring to others] from your mouth in how devoted you will be to me as the Lord." And did not Rachel call her father "lord"?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

@1stCenturyLady "God with us"....right?

Yes. But some don't believe Jesus is God.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

Yes. But some don't believe Jesus is God.

Jesus is Emmanuel God with us.
So in that he is the only way to the Father for Man, as he is Gods only begotten Son and no one can come to the Father but through his only begotten Son.
So that means Jesus is the only way that we can come to know God and he is Emmanuel - God with us ? well now look at the Emmanuel position, well that's it ! Jesus came for us ? = our Saviour of our Souls ?
So the point about all this is that he is God with us ? and that is Salvation ! our Soul ? and in this is the Holy Spirit, now without the Holy Spirit ? remember that came when Jesus went to Heaven ?

So there are 3 in one in all this God the Father and then his Son who is our only Saviour ? and the Holy Spirit ?

So without the Holy Spirit one is dead to the message of Salvation that is Jesus with us ? remember he is Emmanuel ! and remember he said that he will never leave us ? because once you are truly born again then you are his Body, with him ?

If one is not abiding in Christ Jesus then you are not of his Body.

Christ Jesus is not the God of the Dead ? but he is of the Living ! that's his whole being in fact, it's about your Soul ! if your Soul is connected to him = his Body, then you will have life in abundance !
Now abundance is Spiritual, so this is the power force for you to deal with this world that Jesus rejected in fact and had a Kingdom of God for them who were his Body. now when you are his and he sends you out among the wolfs= this world.
It's called Virtue ! look up Virtue and all that it is ? that's what is wanted in all because it's strength in body and Soul to have the power that's the wellspring of Jesus Christ. it's for you ! it's freely given and you freely take it on, it's somewhat like in a sense a coat of armour that the Bible points out about. one is putting on Jesus Christ, we know who killed him ! Sin ? and we detest such a power as Sin ! we must expose that Serpent for what it truly is.
Remember when Jesus was talking to the Devil and Jesus pointed out the facts and said be gone ! old mate was exposed !
Jesus Christ is the light of the World ? there is no darkness in him as he exposes all, there are no shadows, it's a power from God.

 

[Robert Gwin]

It is certainly not the forum itself that moves anyone toward God, but God certainly does uses individuals to attract other individual to Him. Sometimes the place of attraction is in this particular place. Sometimes the person being used of God to accomplish His purpose is being used when he is here posting on this forum.

What places are special places? Any place where people are surrendering to and following God are in that moment of surrender special. But when the people are all gone from the place what special thing is there?

Yes sir, that is the truth. Jesus sent us out, and seeds get planted. I guess for the individuals that are the good soil, where they obtained the initial seed would be a special place, although I would imagine that most wouldn't even remember it, but no doubt they will remember the seed that reached their heart.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Well if God lies we have no hope and He doesn't.

but Jesus is also Jehovah as Isaiah 44 says.

Once again the true god is Elohim (plural)
Once again teh true God is Adonai(plural)

Once again pay attention to the shema

Deuteronomy 6:4
King James Version

4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord:

This is a very curious statement for God to say. Why would He have to say He is only one ? And why did He use the ordinal Yachid instead of the cardinal echad?

Why is jesus called jehovah in Isaih 44.

why is jehovah and Jesus both called the first and last
Why are Jehovah and Jesus both called almighty
Why is Jesus called god in john
Why is Jesus declared equal to God in John
Why did Paul say Jesus existed prior to His incarnation in the form of God if he was just an angel.
Why did god say let us mak man in OUR image and then in the next verse it says man is made in the image of Elohim (plural)

See I have no problem recognizing that God the Father is above the Son. None at all.

where you have the problem is that you reject the bible teaching that Jesus is equally divine as His Father!

God is used to describe a "person" and also used to describe a "nature" or essence. until you can accept that you will always look at the bible through the eyes of Watchtower lies.

Jesus is never called Jehovah Ron. And if Jesus is, then he is the biggest deceiver that ever hit the streets of this world, an outright liar. Best to obey his teachings and worship and serve Jehovah exclusively as Jesus said it was written Mat 4:10. Obedience to his teachings is a requirement for salvation sir 2 Thes 1:8

 

[Robert Gwin]

Nothing in scripture actually says that Yah havah is the Father of our Lord, but rather Jesus identified Himself as Yah havah in the gospels in those verses referred to as the great I Ams.

No sir, that is not a Bible teaching

 

[Robert Gwin]

'While the Pharisees were gathered together,
Jesus asked them, Saying,
.. "What think ye of Christ?
.... whose son is he? "
They say unto Him, "The Son of David."
He saith unto them,
.. "How then doth David in spirit call Him Lord, saying,
.... The LORD said unto my Lord,
...... Sit thou on My right hand,
........ till I make thine enemies Thy footstool?
.......... If David then call Him Lord, how is He his son?
And no man was able to answer Him a word,
neither durst any man from that day forth ask Him any more questions.'
(Mat 22:41-46)

* See Luke 20:46, Acts 2:34-36 and Psalm 110:1.

Was there a point that you were trying to make with this Chris?

 

[Robert Gwin]

'And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth;
and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed:
but Thou art the same, and Thy years shall not fail.'
(Heb 1:10-12)

'Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.'
(Heb 13:8)

Hello @Robert Gwin,

If He Who created all things is God, and if He Who created all things is the Lord Jesus Christ, then we have established the doctrine of His Deity. Another passage which teaches this same truth is that of Colossians 1:13 and Colossians 1:15, 'the Image; and 'the Firstborn of all creation', and then proceeds to explain: 'For by Him were all things created' (Colossians 1:16).

In Christ Jesus
Chris

Jesus is not referred to as the Creator maam, the version of the Bible you quoted would have been better to have translated it through as they did 37 times in other places. Jehovah holds that title exclusively. As you noted in verse 15, with Jesus being the beginning of the creation of God Rev 3:14 he is in fact the firstborn of all creation.

 

[charity]

Charity quoted:-

'While the Pharisees were gathered together,
Jesus asked them, Saying,
.. "What think ye of Christ?
.... whose son is he? "
They say unto Him, "The Son of David."
He saith unto them,
.. "How then doth David in spirit call Him Lord, saying,
.... The LORD said unto my Lord,
...... Sit thou on My right hand,
........ till I make thine enemies Thy footstool?
.......... If David then call Him Lord, how is He his son?})
And no man was able to answer Him a word,
neither durst any man from that day forth ask Him any more questions.'
(Mat 22:41-46)

* See Luke 20:46, Acts 2:34-36 and Psalm 110:1.

Was there a point that you were trying to make with this Chris?

Hello @Robert Gwin,

The quotation itself says all that is needful. It is quoted from a Psalm of David (Psalm 110:1)

'The LORD said unto my Lord,
Sit Thou at My right hand,
until I make Thine enemies Thy footstool.'

* Psalm 110:1, Referring to the royal dignity, priesthood, victories, and triumphs of the MESSIAH. 'The LORD' (Jehovah) 'said unto my Lord' (Adon). The word 'Adon' is used of God as the Lord as ruler in the Earth.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[charity]

charity said:- ↑
'And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth;
and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed:
but Thou art the same, and Thy years shall not fail.'
(Heb 1:10-12)

'Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.'
(Heb 13:8)

Hello @Robert Gwin,

If He Who created all things is God, and if He Who created all things is the Lord Jesus Christ, then we have established the doctrine of His Deity. Another passage which teaches this same truth is that of Colossians 1:13 and Colossians 1:15, 'the Image; and 'the Firstborn of all creation', and then proceeds to explain: 'For by Him were all things created' (Colossians 1:16).

In Christ Jesus
Chris

@Robert Gwin said:-
Chris
Jesus is not referred to as the Creator maam, the version of the Bible you quoted would have been better to have translated it through as they did 37 times in other places. Jehovah holds that title exclusively. As you noted in verse 15, with Jesus being the beginning of the creation of God Rev 3:14 he is in fact the firstborn of all creation.

Hello @Robert Gwin,
,
The Name associated with God as Creator is the Hebrew word, 'Elohim' (see Genesis 1:1): it indicates His relation to mankind as His creatures. The Name Jehovah is used of God in covenant relation with His People. The context determines the usage of these names.

I will not comment on what you have said in relation to the truth revealed in Colossians 1:16. The Lord Jesus Christ is the image of the invisible God: and all things were created by Him.

I use the KJV by the way. I have had cause to refer to the Jehovah's Witness Bible and have found it wanting.

No time now.
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Ferris Bueller]

“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God..." Revelation 1:8

Jesus said:
“...I am the First and the Last..." Revelation 1:17-18​

I don't get too excited about having to know the absolute truth about the Trinity because it's beyond human comprehension (unlike other unseen things that we can grasp and comprehend—the altar in heaven, etc.). You can only grasp it as words. And so I think to not believe Christ is God is one of the blasphemies against the Son that can be excused (Matthew 12:32). It's not an unpardonable sin.