Do you accept this a Biblical fact or fiction?:

[Robert Gwin]

(Jeremiah 10:10) . . .Jehovah is truly God. He is the living God . . .

Concerning Jesus:
(Matthew 16:16) . . .“You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

 

[ChristisGod]

Both are true and The Apostles ( Thomas, Paul, Peter and John) called Christ their God in John 20:28, Titus 2:13, 2 Peter 1:1 and 1 John 5:20. There are many other passages that refer to Christ as God as well.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Robert Gwin]

Both are true and The Apostles ( Thomas, Paul, Peter and John) called Christ their God in John 20:28, Titus 2:13, 2 Peter 1:1 and 1 John 5:20. There are many other passages that refer to Christ as God as well.

hope this helps !!!

No sir they didn't. They all knew who God is. May I ask if you know what Christ means Chris?

 

[Josho]

The Lord Our God

Jesus is Lord

 

[ChristisGod]

No sir they didn't. They all knew who God is. May I ask if you know what Christ means Chris?

Do you know what God means ?
Do you know what Son of God means ?
Do you know what son of man means ?

Scripture declares He is God and I say what scripture declares regarding the Person of Christ.


Isaiah 44:6
Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
'I am the first and I am the last,
And there is no God besides Me.


Isaiah 48:12
"Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called;
I am He, I am the first, I am also the last.


John 8:24
I told you that you would die in your sins. Yes, if you don't believe that I AM(YHWH), you will die in your sins."

John 8:58
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I Am.(YHWH)"


John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 20:28
Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"


Romans 9:5
Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ who is God over all forever praised! Amen.

Titus 2:13
looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Christ Jesus


1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.


Hebrews 1:8
But of the Son He says,
"YOUR THRONE O GOD IS FOREVER AND EVER

Hebrews 1:10
He also says,
"In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.

2 Peter 1:1
Simon Peter a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ
To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours

Below we see the EXACT same construction in the Greek and English our God and Savior/ our Lord and Savior is identified as Jesus Christ

2 Peter 1:11
for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

1 John 5:20
We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true even in His Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

These passages in Revelation make it clear that Jesus is God. Remember it is Jesus Christ in the BOTH Testaments who is Coming back to earth that every eye will see. It was Jesus who was pierced on the cross for our sins. John is clearly once again calling Jesus God!!!!!!! The Coming and the coming in the clouds never refers to the Father in the New Testament but always to Jesus.

Revelation 1:7-8
7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.
8 "I Am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."


We know from Revelation 1:8 that Alpha and Omega is the Almighty. So we can see that Christ is the Almighty


Revelation 1:17
17And when I saw Him, I fell at his feet as dead. And He laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I Am the first and the last:


We know from Revelation 1:17-18 that the first and the last is He that liveth, was dead, but is alive forevermore is Christ.

Revelation 22:12-13
12 "Behold, I Am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. 13 "I Am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."

We know from Revelation 22:13 that the first and the last is the Alpha and Omega.

Revelation 22:16,20
16 "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star."
20 He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I Am coming quickly." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.


Conclusion: So we can see that the One who comes/is coming in the NT always refers to Jesus the Son of Man and NEVER refers to the Father. Therefore we can conclude it is Jesus who is coming whom John calls God the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last.. This is sound biblical exegesis based on the context of the passage as well as the principle established in both Testaments on the One who is Coming in/with the Clouds- The Son of Man not the Father !!!!!!

hope this helps !!!

 

[tigger 2]

Post #2 Christophany wrote:

“Both are true and The Apostles ( Thomas, Paul, Peter and John) called Christ their God in John 20:28, Titus 2:13, 2 Peter 1:1 and 1 John 5:20. There are many other passages that refer to Christ as God as well.”


I will answer these 4 examples in separate posts.

1. John 20:28 is a statement by Thomas who had refused to believe that Jesus had been resurrected. His statement is a phrase without subject or verb and if subject and verb are to be supplied by the translator, it could read “you are My Lord and My God.” It is more likely, however, that it would be translated more like “My Lord and my God be praised.” This would mean that the phrase was meant as a doxology to the Father. Doxologies and other commonly used phrases frequently have words missing in the Greek text.

Many trinitarians say, instead, that this phrase by Thomas was an ADDRESS to Jesus. If true, this would mean that Thomas was naming Jesus by these words. However, it is rare that a person is addressed and not spoken to further. For example, “Then they said to him, ‘Lord, always give us this bread.’” (John 6:34).

However, there is actual proof that John did not intend this as an ADDRESS to Jesus.

You see, whenever John, and the other NT writers, used “Lord” as a noun of address, they used the form of the word known as a vocative. This means that if John understood Thomas’ word as an address to Jesus, they would write the word kurie. Whereas when they intended it as a subject (“My Lord …be praised”) they used the nominative form of the word (Kurios). Kurios is the form used at John 20:28.

See my full study of this scripture here:

Examining the Trinity: MYGOD

 

[tigger 2]

#2 Titus 2:13

In an attempt to prove the trinity doctrine, Granville Sharp made up a rule in 1798. It is often called "Sharp's Rule" by trinitarians. It says, in effect, that when two or more words (nouns) in the original Greek New Testament (NT) text are joined by the word "and," they all refer to the same person if the word "the" (the article) comes before the first noun and not before the other noun(s).

For example, if we saw "the king and _master of the slave" in the Greek text of the Bible, it would always mean, according to Sharp, that only one person was being called both "king" and "master." ("King" and "master" are joined by "and" - - only "king" has the article.)

Sharp made up this ‘rule’ so that a few scriptures would show Jesus and God as the same person. But,even according to the trinity doctrine Jesus (the Son) and God (the Father) are two different persons!

(a) Titus 2:13: "of the great God and savior of us Christ Jesus"

τοῦ μεγάλου θεοῦ καὶ σωτῆρος ἡμῶν Χριστοῦ Ἰησοῦ

Since the first noun ("God") has the article ("the") with it and the following noun ("savior") does not have the article ("the"), then (according to Sharp) God and Christ (the savior, etc.) are the same person!

There are a number of reasons why Sharp's Rule is invalid (See my SHARP study). One important strike against it is the fact that even many respected trinitarian NT grammar experts and translators have rejected it as a valid rule - e.g., see G. B. Winer; J. H. Moulton; C. F. D. Moule; Dr. James Moffatt (see Titus 2:13; and 1 Tim. 5:21); Dr. William Barclay (2 Thess. 1:12); and Roman Catholic scholar Karl Rahner (2 Peter 1:1).

In vol. 5, p. 257 the respected The Expositor's Greek Testament speaking of Sharp’s Rule says:

"In the present case [Jude 1:4], however, the second noun (kupiov [“lord”]) belongs to the class of words which may stand without the article .... A similar doubtful case is found in Tit. ii. 13.…”

The key here is that 1. Sharp used prepositional constructions (usually genitives) in his ‘proofs.’ 2. Sharp used personal names in his ‘proofs.’ So not only did the NT Bible writers sometimes use the article and sometimes not use the article with the very same intended meaning with the very same proper name (e.g. "the James" and "James"), but even when a proper name is used as an appositive it also causes irregular article usage with the other associated nouns. - Robertson, pp. 760, 791.

These are well-known reasons why the noun so affected (prepositional construction or use of personal name) can, and often does, mean that the definite article is to be understood. For example Titus 2:13 may mean “…of the great God and savior of us Christ Jesus” Or it may well mean “…of the great God and of the savior [genitive] of us Christ Jesus.”

Unfortunately, nearly all trinitarian translators render Titus 2:13 in a trinitarian way (SURPRISE!). But even so we find a few who admitted the the likelihood of the two-person meaning:

Titus 2:13

Bible translations old and new:

13 lokynge for that blessed hope and appearynge of the glory of ye greate God and of oure Sauioure Iesu Christ - Coverdale

13 lokynge for þe blessed hope & appearinge of the glory of the greate God, & of oure sauioure Iesu Christ, - The Great Bible

13 Looking for that blessed hope, and appearing of that glorie of that mightie God, and of our Sauiour Iesus Christ, - Geneva


13 abidinge the blessid hope and the comyng of the glorie of the greet God, and of oure sauyour Jhesu Crist; - Wycliffe

13 lokinge for that blessed hope and glorious apperenge of ye myghty god and of oure savioure Iesu Christ - Tyndale

13 in expectation of that desirable happiness, the glorious appearance of the supreme God, and of our saviour Jesus Christ, - Mace

13 awaiting the blessed hope of the appearance of the Glory of the great God and of our Saviour Christ Jesus, - Moffatt

13 expecting the blessed hope; namely, the appearing of the glory of the great God, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ; - The Living Oracles

13 looking for the blessed hope, and appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ; - Noyes

13 waiting for the blessed hope, the glorious appearing of the great God and of our Savior Christ Jesus, - Riverside

13 looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, - Sawyer

(KJV) Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

(New American Bible - 1970) as we await our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Savior Christ Jesus

(New American Bible - 1991) as we await the blessed hope, the appearance of the glory of the great God and of our savior Jesus Christ

(New American Bible - 2010) as we await the blessed hope, the appearance of the glory of the great God and of our savior Jesus Christ

(A New Translation in Plain English - Charles K. Williams) while we wait for the blessed thing we hope for, the appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ

And while we live this life we hope and wait for the glorious denouement of the Great God and of Jesus Christ our saviour. - Phillips

We are to be looking for the great hope and the coming of our great God and the One Who saves, Christ Jesus. - NLV

13 Looking for that blessed hope, and appearing of that glory of that mighty God, and of our Savior Jesus Christ. - GNV

"looking for that blessed hope and glorious appearing of the mighty God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ," - NMB

According to An Idiom-Book of New Testament Greek, by C. F. D. Moule, Cambridge, England, 1971, p. 109, at Titus 2:13, the sense "of the Great God, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ ... is possible in [New Testament] Greek even without the repetition [of the definite article before the second noun]."

Noted British NT scholar and trinitarian clergyman Henry Alford wrote: "I would submit that [a translation which clearly differentiates God from Christ at Titus 2:13] satisfies all the grammatical requirements of the sentence: that it is both structurally and contextually more probable, and more agreeable to the Apostle’s [Paul’s] way of writing: and I have therefore preferred it." - The Greek Testament, p. 421, Vol. 3.

“Of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ (tou megalou qeou kai swthrov hmwn Cristou Ihsou). …. According to A.V. [KJV] two persons are indicated, God and Christ. Revelations with others rend. of our great God and Savior Christ Jesus, thus indicating one person, and asserting the deity of Christ. I adopt the latter, although the arguments and authorities in favor of the two renderings are very evenly balanced. 155” - Vincent’s Word Studies in the New Testament.

"Some Trinitarians say that the grammar of Titus 2:13 forces the interpretation that Jesus is God because of the Granville Sharp rule of Greek grammar. That is not the case, however. The Granville Sharp rule has been debated and successfully challenged. When Scripture refers to “our Great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,” it can indeed be referring to two separate beings: the “Great God,” and the “Savior,” Jesus Christ. The highly regarded Trinitarian Henry Alford gives a number of reasons as to why the grammar of the Greek does not force the interpretation of the passage to make Christ God (Henry Alford, The Greek Testament, Moody Press, Chicago, 1958, Vol. 3, entry on Titus 2:13 ). [For more on the Granville Sharp rule, see commentary on 2 Peter 1:1]." - Revised English Version Commentary - Titus 2:13.

And, finally, concerning Titus 2:13, the steadfastly trinitarian The Expositor's Greek Testament (vol. 4, p. 195) says specifically of Titus 2:13:

"On the whole, then, we decide in favour of the R.V.m. in the rendering of this passage, appearing of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ. The grammatical argument - [Sharp's Rule] - is too slender to bear much weight, especially when we take into consideration not only the general neglect of the article in these epistles but the omission of it before σωτὴρ ['savior'] in I Tim. i. I, iv. 10 [1:1; 4:10]."

For my full study of this, see:

Examining the Trinity: SHARP'S Rule

 

[tigger 2]

#3 2 Peter 1:1

The very same objections to Titus 2:13 apply to 2 Peter 1:1, another Sharp’s ‘proof.’

The Roman Catholic scholar, Karl Rahner, commenting on 2 Peter 1:1, says that ‘God’ “here is clearly separated from ‘Christ’.” - Theological Investigations, Karl Rahner, pp. 136, 137, Vol.1, 3rd printing: 1965.

Famed British NT scholar and trinitarian clergyman Henry Alford wrote: "I would submit that [a translation which clearly differentiates God from Christ at Titus 2:13] satisfies all the grammatical requirements of the sentence: that it is both structurally and contextually more probable, and more agreeable to the Apostle's [Paul's] way of writing." - The Greek Testament, p. 421, Vol. 3. And,

“I have fully discussed the question in the note on [Titus 2:13], to which I would refer the reader as my justification for interpreting here [2 Peter 1:1], as there, [‘the god of us’] of the Father, and [‘savior jesus christ’] of the Son.” - p. 390, Vol. 4.

(Weymouth NT) 2 Peter 1:1 "Simon Peter, a bondservant and Apostle of Jesus Christ: To those to whom there has been allotted the same precious faith as that which is ours through the righteousness of our God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ."

Another Sharp’s construction which even the KJV ignores as a trinity proof immediately follows 2 Peter 1:1:

2 Peter 1:2 “Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord” -KJV.

Here are some of the trinitarian translations which follow the above KJV example for 2 Peter 1:2: ASV; AMP; BRG; CSB; Darby; DRA; EHV; ESV; GNV; GNT; HCSB; ISV; JUB; KJ21; LEB; MEV; MOUNCE; NAB; NASB; NCB; NET; NIV; NKJV; NMB; NRSV; NTE; RGT; RSV; TLV; TPT; VOICE; WEB; YLT.

If 2 Peter 2:2, although one of Sharp’s constructions as clearly as 2 Peter 1:1 is, can be rendered so frequently by trinitarian translators themselves as a 2-person statement - So can other Sharp’s Constructions!

 

[tigger 2]

#4 1 John 5:20

Let's examine the scriptural uses of the "true God"

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible shows only 5 places where this is used in the entire Bible: (1) 2 Chron. 15:3; (2) Jer. 10:10; (3) 1 Thess. 1:9; (4) 1 John 5:20; and (5) John 17:3. Jehovah's Witnesses teach that Jehovah the God of the Bible is one person only (as his singular, masculine, personal name, "Jehovah" clearly shows): the Father in heaven. So does the term "the only true God" ever refer to the Son or the Holy Spirit or a 'multiple-person' God? Or does the Bible teach the truth about the knowledge of God that means our very eternal lives (Jn 17:3; 2 Thess. 1:8, 9)?

Here, then are all the uses of "the true God" to be found in the entire Holy Scriptures (according to Strong's; Young's; and the New American Standard Concordances):

(1) ---2 Chron. 15:3, 4 says:
"Now for a long season Israel was without the true (alethinos - Sept.) God, and without a teaching priest, and without law: but when in their distress they turned unto Jehovah, the God of Israel, and sought him, he was found of them." - American Standard Version (ASV).

(2) ---Jeremiah 10:10 says:
"But Jehovah is the true God; he is the living God, and an everlasting king..." - ASV. (This passage is not in the Septuagint.)

These two scriptures (the only two in the OT to use 'the true God' according to Young's; the New American Standard; and Strong's concordances) clearly identify the true God as Jehovah. And the only person to be identified as Jehovah in the entire OT is the Father alone! (Is. 63:16; 64:8, ASV; Deut. 32:6, ASV; Ps. 2:7 and 89:26, 27 {compare Heb. 1:5}.)

And, in fact, it is also clearly shown that the Messiah is not Jehovah! (Psalm 110:1, ASV {compare Acts 2:33-36 and Eph. 1:17, 20}; Micah 5:4, ASV; Psalm 2:1, 2, ASV {compare Acts 4:25-27}; Psalm 2:7, ASV {compare Acts 13:33; Heb. 5:5}; Is. 53:6, 10, ASV {most Christian churches recognize that all of Is. 53 refers to the Messiah}.)

But what about the New Testament? Is "the true [real] God" ever clearly identified here (in contradiction to the OT) as the Son? As the Holy Spirit? As a "multiple-person" God?

(3) ---1 Thess. 1:9, 10 -
"They tell how you [the Thessalonian congregation] turned to God from idols to serve the living and true [alethinos] God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead - Jesus..." - NIV.

Well, here again the true God is clearly the Father alone as context demands (and who has been identified as Jehovah alone above). And the Son, Jesus, is clearly differentiated from that 'true God"!

So what about the only two remaining references in the NT: 1 John 5:20 and John 17:3?

The only hope for the trinitarian argument that the "true God is Jesus" is found at 1 John 5:20.

(4) ---1 Jn 5:20 -
"We are in him that is true [alethinos], even in his Son, Jesus Christ. This [outos] is the true [alethinos] God, and eternal life." - KJV.

Some trinitarians actually insist that the word "this" (outos) here refers to Jesus. In other words, "[Jesus Christ] is the true God and eternal life." For example, Robert M. Bowman in his Jehovah's Witnesses, Jesus Christ, and the Gospel of John states that at 1 Jn 5:20 Jesus is called 'the true God and eternal life' "indisputably identifying Christ as the Almighty God of the Old Testament." - p. 41, Baker Book House, 1991 printing. I understand why some trinitarians are so desperate in their search for non-existent scriptural "evidence" that they have to make it up, but this is incredibly poor!

It is obvious that grammatically the word "this" (outos) could be referring to either the Father or Jesus in this particular scripture (see the footnote for 1 John 5:20 in the very trinitarian NIV Study Bible). But the fact that the true God (or "the true One") has just been identified as the Father of Jesus (1 Jn 5:20, TEV and GNB; and the footnote in the NIV Study Bible) makes it highly probable that "this is the true God" refers to the Father, not Jesus. The highly trinitarian NT scholar Murray J. Harris sums up his 13-page analysis of this scripture as follows:

"Although it is certainly possible that outos refers back to Jesus Christ, several converging lines of evidence point to 'the true one,' God the Father, as the probable antecedent. This position, outos = God [Father], is held by many commentators, authors of general studies, and significantly, by those grammarians who express an opinion on the matter." - p. 253, Jesus as God, Baker Book House, 1992.

Notice how this trinitarian scholar actually admits that the probability is that the Father (not Jesus) is being called the true God here. He even tells us (and cites examples in his footnotes) that New Testament grammarians and commentators (most of them trinitarian, of course) agree!

So this single "proof" that the "true God" is a title for anyone other than the Father alone is not proof at all. The grammar alone merely makes it a possibility. The immediate context makes it highly improbable since (as in all other uses of the term) the true God (or the true one) was just identified as the Father ("We are in the one who is true as we are in his Son, Jesus Christ. He is the true God and this is eternal life." - NJB; and "We know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we know the true God. We live in union with the true God - in union with his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and this is eternal life." - TEV. "And we know that the Son of God has come, and he has given us understanding so that we can know the true God. And now we live in fellowship with the true God because we live in fellowship with his Son, Jesus Christ. He is the only true God, and he is eternal life." - New Living Translation).

So the immediate context alone makes it probable that the true God is the Father in this scripture also. As we have seen, if we include the context of all the uses of the 'true God,' it is certain that He is the Father alone (whose personal name is Jehovah - Ps. 83:18, Ex. 3:15).

To clinch John's intended meaning at 1 John 5:20, let's look at his only other use of the term: John 17:1, 3, where, again (as in 1 Jn 5:20), he mentions Father, Son, and eternal life.

(5) ---At John 17:1, 3 Jesus prays to the Father:

"Father, .... this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent." - New International Version (NIV).

Here the Father alone is not only very clearly identified as the only true [alethinos] God, but Jesus Christ is again pointedly and specifically excluded from that identification ("AND Jesus Christ whom you [the only true God] have sent")!

Notice how this popular trinitarian Bible has rendered John 17:1, 3 - "Father,....This is eternal life: to know thee who alone art truly God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent." - New English Bible (NEB).

So, the title "the true God" does not have to mean that there are no others who may be called "gods" or "a god" in a subordinate but righteous sense. It is, however, an exclusive title for God, the Most High, only true God, Jehovah. And clearly it refers exclusively to the Father! No one else is the God or the True God! (Compare Ps. 86:10; 2 Kings 19:19; Is. 37:16.)

Therefore, the argument by certain trinitarian "guides" that the term 'true God' must mean that all others called 'gods' in the Scriptures are false gods is clearly false itself. Those who use it have not examined it with anything that could be called proper scholarship. They are either terribly misinformed (the fault of their spiritual "guides") or, in the case of the trinitarian authors, lecturers, and ministers who are aware of methods of proper research, Bible language grammar, etc., terribly dishonest ("deliberately-blind guides")! How does this fit with the command that we must worship God in truth (aletheia)- Jn 4:24? Or the warning that when the knowingly blind (false religious leaders) lead the blind (the ones following those leaders with blind faith) both will fall into the pit? Shouldn't we ALL carefully and diligently examine all sides of any essential, life-saving Bible teaching?

 

[David in NJ]

(Jeremiah 10:10) . . .Jehovah is truly God. He is the living God . . .

Concerning Jesus:
(Matthew 16:16) . . .“You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

For I am the LORD your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior;
You are My witnesses,” declares the LORD, “and My servant whom I have chosen, so that you may consider and believe Me and understand that I am He. Before Me no god was formed, and after Me none will come.
I, yes I, am the LORD, and there is no Savior but Me.

but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen.
Jesus said - "But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you, and you will be My witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

The Lord Jesus Christ is Jehovah who spoke to Moses in the bush

The Jehovah witness religion is a false witness.
They are mislead and reject the WORD that was God in the beginning. John 1:1
They reject John chapters 5 and 8 and many other Holy Scriptures they pervert or reject.

JESUS is JEHOVAH the SAVIOR
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. Acts 4

You are either washed in His Blood and Born Again by the Spirit of God or you are in darkness.
You are either a Witness of the LORD JESUS or you are a false witness.

 

[Robert Gwin]

The Lord Our God

Jesus is Lord

1 Cor 8:6 should help Josh

 

[Robert Gwin]

Do you know what God means ?
Do you know what Son of God means ?
Do you know what son of man means ?

Scripture declares He is God and I say what scripture declares regarding the Person of Christ.

Do you know what God means ? A supernatural being, a deity, an object of reverence
Do you know what Son of God means ? The offspring of a god
Do you know what son of man means ? A term applied to Jesus alone, as he was a spirit being born as a human

Scripture declares He is God and I say what scripture declares regarding the Person of Christ. As I stated no the scriptures do not say that


Isaiah 44:6
Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
'I am the first and I am the last,
And there is no God besides Me.

The verse says Jehovah you changed to Lord

Isaiah 48:12
"Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called;
I am He, I am the first, I am also the last.

Is speaking about Jehovah

John 8:24
I told you that you would die in your sins. Yes, if you don't believe that I AM(YHWH), you will die in your sins."

The context is not identification, rather that if you do not believe he is the Christ

Jesus said this, the proper context of course is that if you do not believe that he is the
John 8:58
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I Am.(YHWH)"

Like the verse states he existed before Abraham, was not an identification question rather one concerning his age and knowing Abraham

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The translators of your selected version deliberately altered this verse, they knew how to translate it correctly as they did at Acts 28:6 why the alteration?
John 20:28
Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"

At least you left the exclamation point in, Thomas was an apostle, he knew full well who God was, and like many humans was so excited when he actually realized that the one speaking to him was actually the resurrected Jesus he exclaimed my god, no doubt you have exclaimed that yourself.

Romans 9:5
Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ who is God over all forever praised! Amen.

(Romans 9:5) . . .To them the forefathers belong, and from them the Christ descended according to the flesh. God, who is over all, be praised forever. Amen.
Better version, or altered you choose

Titus 2:13
looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Christ Jesus

(Titus 2:13) . . .while we wait for the happy hope and glorious manifestation of the great God and of our Savior, Jesus Christ,



1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

(1 Timothy 3:16) . . .Indeed, the sacred secret of this godly devotion is admittedly great: ‘He was made manifest in flesh, was declared righteous in spirit, appeared to angels, was preached about among nations, was believed upon in the world, was received up in glory.’


Hebrews 1:8
But of the Son He says,
"YOUR THRONE O GOD IS FOREVER AND EVER

(Hebrews 1:8) 8 But about the Son, he says: “God is your throne forever and ever, and the scepter of your Kingdom is the scepter of uprightness.


Hebrews 1:10
He also says,
"In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.

2 Peter 1:1
Simon Peter a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ
To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours
(2 Peter 1:1) . . .Simon Peter, a slave and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have acquired a faith as precious as ours through the righteousness of our God and the Savior Jesus Christ. . .


Below we see the EXACT same construction in the Greek and English our God and Savior/ our Lord and Savior is identified as Jesus Christ

2 Peter 1:11
for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

1 John 5:20
We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true even in His Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.
(1 John 5:20) . . .But we know that the Son of God has come, and he has given us insight so that we may gain the knowledge of the one who is true. And we are in union with the one who is true, by means of his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and life everlasting.


These passages in Revelation make it clear that Jesus is God. Remember it is Jesus Christ in the BOTH Testaments who is Coming back to earth that every eye will see. It was Jesus who was pierced on the cross for our sins. John is clearly once again calling Jesus God!!!!!!! The Coming and the coming in the clouds never refers to the Father in the New Testament but always to Jesus.

Revelation 1:7-8
7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.
8 "I Am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

At least the version you used left in God, some remove it, as you can see was referring to Jehovah


We know from Revelation 1:8 that Alpha and Omega is the Almighty. So we can see that Christ is the Almighty

You overlooked God there

Revelation 1:17
17And when I saw Him, I fell at his feet as dead. And He laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I Am the first and the last:


We know from Revelation 1:17-18 that the first and the last is He that liveth, was dead, but is alive forevermore is Christ.

Revelation 22:12-13
12 "Behold, I Am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. 13 "I Am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."

We know from Revelation 22:13 that the first and the last is the Alpha and Omega.

Revelation 22:16,20
16 "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star."
20 He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I Am coming quickly." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.


Conclusion: So we can see that the One who comes/is coming in the NT always refers to Jesus the Son of Man and NEVER refers to the Father. Therefore we can conclude it is Jesus who is coming whom John calls God the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last.. This is sound biblical exegesis based on the context of the passage as well as the principle established in both Testaments on the One who is Coming in/with the Clouds- The Son of Man not the Father !!!!!!

hope this helps !!!

I fully understand and salute you for your study and presentation. It was well thought out, but you need to investigate further as there was manipulation involved. The real truth is, if Jesus is God, then he is a liar at Mk 10:40 and 13:32. If we can not trust him in speech, how can we trust him in promises?

Jesus came primarily to declare the good news of the Kingdom of his God, he made God's name known, and he personally taughtMatthew 4:10) . . .“Go away, Satan! For it is written: ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’”

Like all of us for salvation you have to choose the true God, so it is best to make sure who He is. Jesus explained Him very well, and personally chose Jehovah as his God Jn 20:17. I sincerely hope you are in error, as the result will very likely not be a pretty picture because, if you cannot believe God, who can you believe?

 

[Robert Gwin]

For I am the LORD your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior;
You are My witnesses,” declares the LORD, “and My servant whom I have chosen, so that you may consider and believe Me and understand that I am He. Before Me no god was formed, and after Me none will come.
I, yes I, am the LORD, and there is no Savior but Me.

but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen.
Jesus said - "But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you, and you will be My witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

The Lord Jesus Christ is Jehovah who spoke to Moses in the bush

The Jehovah witness religion is a false witness.
They are mislead and reject the WORD that was God in the beginning. John 1:1
They reject John chapters 5 and 8 and many other Holy Scriptures they pervert or reject.

JESUS is JEHOVAH the SAVIOR
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. Acts 4

You are either washed in His Blood and Born Again by the Spirit of God or you are in darkness.
You are either a Witness of the LORD JESUS or you are a false witness.

No sir David, If Jesus is Jehovah, then he is everything they claim satan to be, a liar and deceiver, so what hope do we have? On the other hand, Jesus may very well be correct like he told those who accused him of being God as well in his day, what did he reply to them?: (John 10:33-36) . . .“We are stoning you, not for a fine work, but for blasphemy; for you, although being a man, make yourself a god.” . . .36 do you say to me whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?

 

[ChristisGod]

@Robert Gwin - No since the Apostles called Him their God. See John 1:1 John 20:28, Titus 2:13, 2 Peter 1:1, 1 John 5:20.

Thomas, John, Paul, Peter cannot all be wrong and you right now can they ?

hope this helps !!!

 

[Robert Gwin]

@Robert Gwin - No since the Apostles called Him their God. See John 1:1 John 20:28, Titus 2:13, 2 Peter 1:1, 1 John 5:20.

Thomas, John, Paul, Peter cannot all be wrong and you right now can they ?

hope this helps !!!

No sir they certainly can not. I will say, when Jesus returns, a qualifying requirement for survival is knowing God, best make sure Chris 2 Thes 1:8

 

[ChristisGod]

No sir they certainly can not. I will say, when Jesus returns, a qualifying requirement for survival is knowing God, best make sure Chris 2 Thes 1:8

So you are saying none of the disciples/apostles or scripture referred to Jesus as God, is that correct ? yes or no

 

[David in NJ]

No sir David, If Jesus is Jehovah, then he is everything they claim satan to be, a liar and deceiver, so what hope do we have? On the other hand, Jesus may very well be correct like he told those who accused him of being God as well in his day, what did he reply to them?: (John 10:33-36) . . .“We are stoning you, not for a fine work, but for blasphemy; for you, although being a man, make yourself a god.” . . .36 do you say to me whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?

You take the SAME position as those who wanted to kill Jesus - You reject Christ, He is Jehovah, He is the IAM who spoke to Moses.
You reject John chapters 5 and 8
You corrupt and change Scripture to declare your error.

the teachings of jehovah witnesses is falsehood and error - there is only One Witness

“It is I who have declared and saved and proclaimed, And there was no strange god among you; So you are My witnesses,” declares the LORD, “And I am God. Isaiah 43

Jesus replied, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by His own authority. 8But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you, and you will be My witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

You do not have the Holy Spirit abiding in you.............you are not the Lord's true witnesses.

 

[marks]

No sir they didn't. They all knew who God is. May I ask if you know what Christ means Chris?

Please see below.

Christianity Board Statement of Faith

The below clearly outlines the core, closed-handed, and Christian orthodox issues that we expect members of Christianity Board to uphold. We accept that this declaration essentially defines Christianity for Christianity Board. Disagreement with the below, we believe, places one outside the realm of reasonable orthodox Christianity.

We believe that God is the Creator, Sustainer, and Ruler of the universe. We attest that God has eternally existed in three persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. These three are co-equal and are one God. (Genesis 1:1, 26-27, Genesis 3:22, Deuteronomy 6:4, Psalm 90:2, John 1:1, John 10:30, Romans 3:30, II Corinthians 13:14, I Peter 1:2)

We believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and is co-equal with the Father. Jesus lived a completely sinless human life and offered himself freely on the cross as the perfect sacrifice for the sins of all, according to God’s plan revealed from the beginning. After three days, Jesus arose from the dead to demonstrate his power over death. He ascended to heaven to await his future return as King of Kings and Lord of Lords. (Genesis 3:15, Isaiah 9:6-7, Matthew 1:22-25, John 1:1-5, John 14:10-30, Acts 1:9-11, Romans 1:3-4, I Corinthians 15:3-4, I Timothy 6:14-15, Titus 2:3, Hebrews 4:14-15)

We believe that the Holy Spirit is equal with the Father and Son (Jesus). He is present in this world as an intercessor to make men and women aware of their need for Jesus the Christ. The Holy Spirit resides in every believer from the moment of salvation. He empowers the Christian with strength for living, understanding the truth, witnessing to others, and in doing what is right. (John 14:16-17, John 16:7-13, Acts 1:8, I Corinthians 2:12, I Corinthians 3:16, II Corinthians 3:17, Galatians 5:16-25, Ephesians 1:13-14, Ephesians 5:18-21)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Why do we keep allowing attacks on the Deity of Christ?

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

No sir they didn't. They all knew who God is. May I ask if you know what Christ means Chris?

Do you know what LIFE is?
The physical and spiritual source of life is God. Life also means spiritual redemption and resurrection
Jesus said I am the LIFE.

Do you know what TRUTH means?
Aside frim what is righteous, truth means what is real, reality. So if someone claims they are the truth, they claim they are reality. Now if JWs claim that Jesus was created, that means righteousness and spirutual reality did not exist before Jesus.
We are in Christ, in eternity, in truth (spiritual reality, realm, being). He was in the beginning.

Do you know what LOGOS means?
In John 1:1, Logos (word) is the "divine reason", the "exact expression" and "power", the "spiritual essence" (substance) and "glory of God", in mind, will, emotion and character. Jesus is not like, or similar to God. He is God, who came in the flesh a dwelt among us. Rev. 19:13, 16 describes Jesus as the Word of God, King of Kings, Lord of Lords.

Do you know who the CREATOR is?
"for by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominions, or rulers, or authorities - all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things and in Him all things hold together."
Col. 1:16, 17
So, He did not create Himself, He is an eternal being. The FATHER begot the Son (the human being, the baby Jesus - NOT HIS spiritual being that pre-existed with the Father). "The Word was with God." "The Word became flesh."
In Him, all things consist. That means every atom in the universe and life itself, visible and invisible.

Do you know what LIGHT is?
Revelation, inspiration and radiance to man is actually His divine presence. Jesus is the Light of men.

Do you known what AUTHORITY means and what it requires?
The Bible as a written book contains the message of God to man. It has power to transform because it comes from a supernatural source, the causal force, the Author of Life and everything. Having authority in heaven and earth requires omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence.

 

[marks]

1. John 20:28 is a statement by Thomas who had refused to believe that Jesus had been resurrected. His statement is a phrase without subject or verb and if subject and verb are to be supplied by the translator, it could read “you are My Lord and My God.” It is more likely, however, that it would be translated more like “My Lord and my God be praised.” This would mean that the phrase was meant as a doxology to the Father. Doxologies and other commonly used phrases frequently have words missing in the Greek text.

Can you show one example of this from the Bible? This would be an empty utterance, well known in the modern day, but you are saying that these men spoke that we to Jesus?

You ARE alive! OMG!!

Much love!