Do you believe Spirit baptism replaces water baptism?

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Jn 6:27-29 does NOT refer to a work God does but is speaking of a work, the work of believing, that God has given MAN to do.

In this context, Jesus gave those people the work of believing for them to do.

"Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed."

Jesus plainly tells them to WORK for the food that endures unto everlasting life. Jesus so to WORK, He did not say have faith only.
Yet note this important point:
It says God GIVES the gift of everlasting life...."give" means it's a free gift yet one must WORK in order to receive this free gift God GIVES. Proving once again God's free gift of salvation comes with CONDITIONS and one must WORK to meet those conditions and meeting the necessary conditions cannot, does not earn the free gift.

"Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?" They asked what work THEY must do. Jesus did NOT tell them do not works just believe only as so many false teachers today would have told those people.

Instead, Jesus gave them work to do in v29, He gave them the work of believing for believing is a work it is not just a mental assent of the mind.
And this work of believing come from God, God is the source of this work that has been given to man to do for God certainly does not do the work of believing for men while men sit doing nothing.

So you are saying you can believe without Christ’s drawing?
Are you saying you can believe in Jesus without the conviction of the Spirit?
Are you saying that babies who die are not saved by God’s grace?

The order is:

1. God's work upon the heart (of which we cannot believe without this) (John 6:29).

2. Faith in Jesus as our Savior, and a belief in the gospel message that Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and He was risen the third day for our salvation (is what must happen when we first get saved). This is a process of salvation without works (Ephesians 2:8-9) (Titus 3:5).

3. Faith in God's instructions (in the New Testament) which means one does the work of faith (John 6:27). This is the eventual labor that they are to do that endures to everlasting life. The work of faith is rooted in our believing God’s Word in that He can work and operate in us. It is believing God that He can empower us to live a holy life. This is the eventual result of God's work upon the heart to believe. God gets the credit for us believing (even though we have free will choice involved because God is the initiator and illuminator of our being able to believe).​

So John 6:26-29 is describing things in reverse order.
Jesus desires them to ultimately do the work of faith, but that can only start or begin when God does the work upon their heart to illuminate them to the truth of God's Word, and to convict them of their sin whereby they are able to make the choice to first believe in the Savior and the gospel message by faith initially (Which is received as a gift). But salvation is not continually received over and over and over as a gift. Gifts come with responsibilities otherwise you can lose them if you don't take care of them.

Side Note:

In John 6:28, the Jewish crowd is asking what must they do in order to do the works of God. Jesus desires them to do the eventual work of faith, but it takes time to get there and certain things first need to happen. The first thing that needs to happen is GOD (i.e. the work of God - John 6:29). GOD needs to work upon their heart and convict them of their sin at the right moment in their life and show them the truth of His Word. Once the truth is illuminated to them under God's drawing and call, they are able to believe. But God gets the credit for a person initially believing in God for salvation. Then after a believer has first trusted in Jesus and the gospel for salvation, they then move on to laboring for the food (work of faith) that endures to everlasting life (John 6:27). Obeying God's instructions in the Bible is simply continuing in the faith. But faith does start off as a belief alone (without works). If this is not the case, then verses like Romans 11:6, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5 cannot be true. All of Scripture needs to be read in harmony together. We cannot believe one verse in the wrong way at the expense of others.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jn 6:27-29 does NOT refer to a work God does but is speaking of a work, the work of believing, that God has given MAN to do.

In this context, Jesus gave those people the work of believing for them to do.

"Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed."

Jesus plainly tells them to WORK for the food that endures unto everlasting life. Jesus so to WORK, He did not say have faith only.
Yet note this important point:
It says God GIVES the gift of everlasting life...."give" means it's a free gift yet one must WORK in order to receive this free gift God GIVES. Proving once again God's free gift of salvation comes with CONDITIONS and one must WORK to meet those conditions and meeting the necessary conditions cannot, does not earn the free gift.

"Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?" They asked what work THEY must do. Jesus did NOT tell them do not works just believe only as so many false teachers today would have told those people.

Instead, Jesus gave them work to do in v29, He gave them the work of believing for believing is a work it is not just a mental assent of the mind.
And this work of believing come from God, God is the source of this work that has been given to man to do for God certainly does not do the work of believing for men while men sit doing nothing.

Grace and peace be unto you in the Lord Jesus today.

Well, to get down to another point you made:

Well, you are preaching to the choir about telling me how there are conditions, my friend. I know full well that we have to meet certain conditions as a part of the faith. This applies both in first being initially saved by God’s grace, and ALSO in abiding in the Sanctification of the Spirit to live a holy life (cleansing ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God - 2 Corinthians 7:1).

Believers can lose their salvation by sin or if they justify sin or even if they later believe an extremely heretical false man made doctrine (or doctrines). I believe we do have to labor (work) but this stems from faith. Faith in God’s Word. Faith in God Himself and trusting in the promises. Without faith it is impossible to please Him (GOD). If we make it all about works and no faith or grace, then we have fallen into the error of the Pharisees (even if we do not keep the ceremonial aspects of the Old Law). One of the major problems with the Pharisees is they made it all about works and no grace. We see this in the parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee in Luke 18:9-14.

 

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Hello brother, God bless,

Good morning brother.
I pray the Lord Jesus is giving you power to do all things in His name to His glory today and forever more.

Anyways, to get down to the discussion at hand:

Yes, there are many things in scripture that have been overlooked by some and the situations they apply to and the circumstances. If some just assume (as many do) that if they did it in Acts then we should to", Then they would confuse many issues as we are seeing in this study and talk. They would have to have a temple for all believers to go to, as the Jew did in Acts. They would have to have sacrifices and follow the Mosaic law strictly in all areas and the customs of the Jews, have circumcision, and dietary laws and follow days and times and many aspects of the Old Testament. But if they understood the context and circumstances and the grace of God working with the two groups ( Jews and gentles), to bring them into the one body of Christ and to break down the middle wall , then they might consider what is being said about water baptism.

I would need more specific verses on this point to prove that a Jewish believer could keep the Old Law as a part of salvation during this time of reformation. I don’t exactly believe that such a thing is possible because it contradicts Galatians 5:4. Paul said there is no Jew or Gentile in Christ (Galatians 3:28). So I don’t see the Jews as being an exception to the rule on this. Yes, I am aware of Acts 15, but I believe that the Jews were temporarily able to keep those customs of the Old Law for cultural or non-salvific reasons (As we see with Timothy being circumcised to be able to move about the Jewish territory - although it was not done as a part of salvation - Acts 16:3).

And I for one never make "snap" judgements on any or the apostles. I have studied and sought Gods direction on these matters and others for many years. I have also wrestled with many things and part of the tension is the conditioning that believers have had from man made traditions and wrong doctrine for centuries. Imagine how the reformers felt when going against the Catholic churches doctrines that were contrary to scripture and the Lords leading? They would ave face similar opposition.

Christianity did not revive back to life with Protestantism. I believe there were also a small select few believers through time who did not make into the popular history books who were faithful to God and who believed the correct core doctrines (See: Matthew 16:18). The reformation or Protestantism started with Martin Luther. Reformers also Calvinists, as well (Which is a highly unbiblical view of the Scriptures). Martin Luther while it was good to rebel against the Catholic Church (because of it’s many errors), if man made history is true, Martin said he could sin a thousand times a day and still be saved.

“No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day" ['Let Your Sins Be Strong, from 'The Wittenberg Project;' 'The Wartburg Segment', translated by Erika Flores, from Dr. Martin Luther's Saemmtliche Schriften, Letter No. 99, 1 Aug. 1521. - Cf. Also Denifle’s Luther et Lutheranisme, Etude Faite d’apres les sources. Translation by J. Paquier (Paris, A. Picard, 1912-13), VOl. II, pg. 404].”

~ Quote by: Martin Luther (If this indeed is a true record of what he said and he believed this way until he died).​

This is why it is good to just stick with the Bible alone and not build our faith on man made history (Although man made history can be of benefit to understanding the Bible on rare occasions as long as it does not conflict with God’s Word or replace it).

I don't see the apostles as sinning in these areas so much although we do read of some areas of blame in some verses. But some may have been sinning among the believers in Jerusalem and in a wrong understanding f the law and justification. I see Paul writing much in the NT on these matters to help others and warn some. I see God working with them in the time of reformation and transition from the Old to the New. Guided daily and yearly by the Holy Ghost as they walked with God. God will always correct believers and some things take time to see and understand.

And I mentioned how Paul seems to be saying that when a believer came out of the bondage of the law and OT requirements and was free in that respect, then they knowingly went back under the law and circumcision that he then says they are fallen from grace and Christ would profit them nothing. He mentions then they would be a debtor to do the whole law.

There are two things I keep in mind here on this topic now:

(a) It’s possible that the Jewish Christians kept the Law before 70AD for cultural or non-salvific reasons.
(b) It is not my place to condemn the Jewish apostles without clear evidence in Scripture to what was going on involving each of them.

I do not seek to judge any either. I am not even saying that Peter was wrong in many things he did. Misunderstanding or lack of discernment in a certain area is allowed as we learn from God and grow in the knowledge of Jesus Christ. Paul says that some who were weak in the faith did eat only herbs but others who were strong could eat all things (Romans 14). When he said who are we to judge another mans servant. But scripture shows clearly ( to me at least in this area) that they did have issues with the law still and the customs and the OT was slowly fading away and decaying and ready to vanish. So scripture shows us that some things are beyond a shadow of a doubt.

I do see what you mean with Romans 14. It appears that this chapter did allow for a time of reformation (Seeing God did receive those who did keep days like the Saturday Sabbath or certain dietary laws).

But this is not exactly solid biblical evidence, either.

I think another way to read Romans 14 is that we are not to make snap judgments if somebody is keeping the dietary laws or if they are keeping the Saturday Sabbath. Paul became a Jew so as to win the Jews which means he was capable of keeping the Old Law but he simply did not do so for salvific reasons. But we do see Paul condemn the keeping of the Old Law in Galatians and says he is afraid for them in that they kept days, months and years (Galatians 4:10-11).

Yes, Romans 14 does appear to teach about personal conviction of dietary laws, and what days of worship we are to partake in. But the keeping of days is condemned in Galatians 4:10-11. Galatians 5:4 says that if we seek to be justified by the Law we have fallen from grace. So either there was a paradigm shift in Paul’s thinking between Romans 14 and Galatians 4 and Galatians 5, or Paul was teaching the principle of how we are to not make snap judgments. A person may be keeping the Sabbath or dietary laws because they feel it is the right thing for them to do (that God is calling them to do), but they may not be thinking this must be done for salvific reasons.

 

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Hello brother, God bless, I believe part of the struggle in these areas is not from what the scripture clearly says rightly interpreted in the spirit, but from the traditions of man and the centuries old teachings of error that have been taught to many. Some will hear what I share about water baptism and the issues around this and they will have no scriptural correction ( except using Acts as they try to do and say we need to do what the Jewish believers did) but the argument from the number of people who don't see it. Or they will say how come all churches haven't seen this for centuries, and only a few have? they argue from numbers over the few or from the tradition of their large man made denominations etc. I hear often statement like "so you are right and all the theologians are wrong from history"that kind of stuff.

The battleground is the Word of God and not man made history.
Men can lie, but God’s Word cannot.
God’s Word teaches the truth.

Imagine how the early apostles felt when the massive weight of Jewish groups and history seemed to be against them.

The choice is clear to buck any falsehood if God is calling them to do that.
This would be a test of their faith over the course of their life.
Will they ultimately side with God in the end or will they hold on to a dead covenant?

Or how the reformers felt when they saw in scripture things that were not seen for centuries.

The reformers ran into the opposite wrong extreme when they rebelled against the Catholic Church. They went from one wrong extreme into the opposite wrong side of the spectrum making it all about a perpetual belief alone when a belief alone (lived out in our faith) will not save anyone. For even the demons believe and tremble. Today, many in the Belief Alone camp do not want Jesus to reign over them as warned in the Parable of the Minas (See: Luke 19:27). Thanks to Martin Luther and the Protestant reformation, we now have Hyper Grace Christians. We also have Partial Hyper Grace Christians (Which is makes up the majority of bible believing churches of today). As I pointed out before, a perfect example of this is in the Gotquestions article on backslidden believers.

Is a backsliding Christian still saved? | GotQuestions.org

They double speak and do not hold to a consistent standard of morality.

Partial Hyper Grace Christians deny the instructions from God in the Bible as a part of entering the Kingdom. They sneak in a reverse form of Calvinism in that God pulls you on strings to do what He wants you to do at some point. When the Bible teaches we are to continue in the faith, continue in God’s grace, keep ourselves in the love of God, continue in His goodness (otherwise we can be cut off). We are to affirm constantly good works (Titus 3:8). We are to let others learn about good works so that they do not become unfruitful (Titus 3:14). James 2:24 says we are justified by works and not by faith alone. So it’s not just automatic. We are not on autopilot. Believers must work out their salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12). Revelation 3 talks about how God did not find their works perfect before God and this was a salvation issue. Yet, Protestant Perpetual Belief Alone Salvationism teaches the exact opposite against this truth. They make it all about a belief and in doing nothing to be saved and God will just one day pull you along like a rag doll because you believe in certain truths in the Bible or if you believe in the finished work of the cross (as many Protestants falsely say).

Once you see the error of Martin Luther, you will begin to see the seed plot he has laid for many of the Bible believing churches of today. While we need to believe the Bible alone as our final word of authority, Protestants tend to not deal with those verses that talk about how we need to be faithful to God in order to enter the Kingdom. They make the excuse that God will just change them and so they wait for God to move in their life when that may never happen, and or they teach apathy towards the believer taking the initiative in being faithful (with God’s help).

 

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@LoveofTruth

The Two Sides of the Coin of Faith:

The 1st Side of the Coin of Faith:

Faith starts off as a belief or trust in Jesus Christ as one's Savior (John 3:16). We are first saved by God's grace through faith without the deeds of the law or works ALONE (Ephesians 2:8-9). We are saved initially and foundationally by God's grace and mercy like the receiving of a gift. We believe that Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and He was risen three days later for our salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). We call upon the name of the Lord seeking forgiveness with Him (Romans 10:13, Luke 18:9-14). We receive or invite Christ into our life (John 1:12, Revelation 3:20). If a believer stumbles into sin on rare occasion, they do not do a good work to redeem that sin; But they go to God's grace by confessing their sins to Jesus Christ in order to be forgiven of it (See: 1 John 1:9, 1 John 2:1, Hebrews 4:16). This is all a part of how we are saved by God's grace through faith. No man can save themselves by Works Alone without God's grace. Many people who believe in God, and yet they have not accepted Jesus as their Savior think that God will outweigh their good deeds over their bad deeds. Salvation does not work like that. For they do not realize that their bad deeds will condemn them. They need to have their past slate of sins wiped out. This is where God's grace through faith in Jesus comes in.

But faith does not end with being saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

The journey of faith continues with...​

The 2nd Side of the Coin of Faith:

#1. Faith manifests itself with the “work of faith” mentioned by the apostle Paul in 1 Thessalonians 1:3, and 2 Thessalonians 1:11. Protestants seem to separate works from faith in a way that goes beyond how James describes them. Yet, the apostle Paul mentions that there is a “work of faith.” The Bible talks about the “work of the Lord” (1 Corinthians 15:58) (1 Corinthians 16:10), and I imagine if I asked a Protestant Christian if the “work” within the “work of the Lord” is separate from “the Lord,” they most likely would say they are not separated. But when it comes to the “work of faith,” they will say that works and faith are separate things (Which in my view is not being consistent or honest with oneself).


#2. The word “faithful” is also mentioned 54 times in the New Testament King James Bible. The dictionary defines faithful as:

Faithful:
(adjective):

1. true to one's word, promises, vows, etc.
2. steady in allegiance or affection; loyal; constant: faithful friends.
3. reliable, trusted, or believed.
4. strict or thorough in the performance of duty: a faithful worker.
​

Source:

Definition of faithful | Dictionary.com

This definition is supported by the context in many verses in the Bible. It does not take a detective to figure out that the word “faithful” derives from the word “faith.” They are related and connected to each other. A person is loyal (or faithful) to their master based on their faith in him in what he says. For example: 2 Thessalonians 3:3 says, “But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.” So the Lord is said to be faithful in this verse. How is the Lord faithful? Is it by a belief alone? No. The Lord is faithful to strengthening us (or in establishing us) to keep us from evil. The Lord does something when He is faithful. Revelation 2:10 says to a particular church, “be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.” Many Protestants have tried to come up with tricky ways to not apply this verse to their own life. I believe they do not accept what this verse plainly says because it contradicts their “Faith Alone” teaching that was handed down to them from Martin Luther (the founder of Protestantism).

#3. Romans 10:17. It says,

“So then faith cometh by hearing,
and hearing by the word of God.”
(Romans 10:17).
​

How do we get our faith? According to Romans 10:17, we get our faith by hearing the Word of God. I believe that the “Word of God” can refer to either Jesus, and or the Bible (depending on the context) (Note: See this thread here to see the connection in Scripture between the Living Word and the Bible). Anyways, in this particular instance in Romans 10:17: I believe the “Word of God” refers to the words of Jesus (which are found in the Holy Bible). We must receive the words of Jesus because if we do not, His words will judge us on the last day (See: John 12:48). This would also include the words of His apostles, as well. For Jesus says, “He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.” (Matthew 10:40). So faith is basically everything in my New Testament because it gives us an account of the words of Jesus and His followers. We get our faith by believing and obeying what Jesus and His apostles said. Faith is everything in your New Testament, and faith is not just a belief alone in Jesus.

#4. Hebrews 11.
Hebrews 11 gives us an account of what faith does. “By faith Noah, ... prepared an ark to the saving of his house;...” (Hebrews 11:7). “By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac:” (Hebrews 11:17). “By faith Moses, ... refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;” (Hebrews 11:24-25). So by faith, the great men of God obeyed God and or put forth holy actions (or the “work of faith”). So in Hebrews 11, the word “faith” is used to represent something a believer does. This faith also rejects sin in one's life, for Moses suffered with the affliction of God's people rather than enjoying the pleasures of sin for a season.

#5. Peter failed to continue to walk on the water (Which is a work of God).
What was the reason why Peter later failed to continue to walk on the water? Jesus said, “O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?” (Matthew 14:31). This again proves that the work of God that can operate in our life is tied to our faith. For in Ephesians 2:9 it refers to Man Directed Works ALONE Salvationism (without God's grace) because it is the kind of work that a man would boast in himself by doing it. But Ephesians 2:10 talks about an entirely different kind of work. It is the work of God done through the believer. These are the works that we are created unto Christ Jesus to do. They are the works of God done through us. For Jesus said we can do nothing without Him (John 15:5). For it is God who works in us to do of His good will and pleasure (Philippians 2:13). So any good we do, all praise, glory, thanks, and honor is given to our Lord Jesus Christ and or to the glorious Trinity (or Godhead).

#6. Paul also mentions that there is an “obedience to the faith" (or obedience of faith) at the beginning and end of the book of Romans (See: Romans 1:5, Romans 16:26). Romans 6 says,

“Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?” (Romans 6:16).
​

So we have to have obedience unto righteousness. For Romans 6 also says, “But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22). So our obedience unto righteousness is being servants of God and having fruit unto holiness with having the end of everlasting life. This is all a part of the obedience to the faith. There is no such thing as the disobedience of the faith. For Ephesians 5 says, “But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.” (Ephesians 5:3-6).​

(Continued in next post):

 

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#7. John 3:36 (The Greek word “apeitheō” used in John 3:36 for the English words: “believeth not” (KJB) is translated as “obey not” or “disobedient” in other English bible verses. For example: 1 Peter 3:1, and 1 Peter 3:20 translates apeitheō as “obey not” or “disobedient” and it is used context to being disobedient in regards to one’s righteous conduct (Whereas John 3:36 is translated as believeth not” in the King James Bible). Some translations render the KJB’s John 3:36 “believeth not" as “obey not” in other Translations (NLT, ESV, BLB, NASB, ASV, EXB, GNT). In other words, sometimes the words “believeth not” is synonymous with “obey not” (depending on the context). In fact, you can check this Greek word for yourself and it's usage here at BlueLetterBible.

G544 - apeitheō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV)
​

#8. Works makes a person’s faith perfect (James 2:22).

This connects in with 2 Timothy 3:16-17. Doctrine and instruction in righteousness is profitable so that the man of God may be perfect unto all good works. Anyways, the point here is that your faith is perfected by works. Thus, this shows us that there is a symbiotic relationship between faith and works that cannot be separated.

#9. 2 Corinthians 5:7 says: “We walk by faith.” So faith is not something whereby you do nothing but believe. We are to walk by faith. Walking is an action.

#10. Examine whether you be in the faith - 2 Corinthians 13:5. How do we do this? Well, this is by proving Christ is in you. How can we show that we know the Lord? By keeping His commandments (1 John 2:3). However, the person who says they know the Lord and they do not keep His commands is a liar and the truth is not in them (1 John 2:4). So keeping His commands is tied to knowing the Lord, and knowing the Lord is in us is a part of our examination of whether we are in the faith or not (2 Corinthians 13:5).

#11. Galatians 5:6 says, “faith which worketh by love.”
Paul says in context within Galatians:

“For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Galatians 5:13-14).
​

So faith works by love. It works in love by loving one another. Faith is not just a belief alone.

#12. Philippians 2:17 talks about “the service of your faith.” Service is a form of work. So our faith will have service or work attached. So there is no faith that is alone or remains as a belief alone. True faith will have its service.

#13. 2 Thessalonians 3:2 says, “And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.” This is suggesting that faith is not a belief alone whereby we can live wickedly. For it says that we may be delivered from wicked men for (because) all men have not faith. So the opposite of wickedness is holiness. So this verse is implying indirectly that our good and moral conduct is tied to the faith.

#14. 1 Timothy 5:8 says, “But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.” An infidel is an unbeliever. If faith is exclusively a belief alone then how can a person deny the faith by their misconduct?

#15. 1 Timothy 6:12 says, “Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life,” We have to FIGHT the good fight of faith in order to lay hold on eternal life. So faith is something we have to fight for and it is not a belief alone.

#16. 2 Timothy 3:1-9 describes those who have a form of godliness but deny the power thereof. They are lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God. These types are said to be reprobate concerning the faith (See: 2 Timothy 3:8). So faith is not a belief alone in Jesus whereby one’s conduct is not in line with true godliness.

#17. James 2:1 says, “My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.” This means faith is not a belief alone in Jesus, but it also includes one’s actions in not neglecting to love the poor brethren while one shows favor to the rich brethren.

#18. Jude says:

“Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.” (Jude 1:3-4).
​

Verse 3 says that we are to contend for the faith and verse 4 says there are certain ungodly men who turn the grace of our God into lasciviousness. Meaning, they are teaching that a person can sin and still be saved by God’s grace. But we are told to contend for the faith.

#19. Revelation 13:10 says,

“Anyone who is destined for prison will be taken to prison.
Anyone destined to die by the sword will die by the sword.
This means that God’s holy people must endure
persecution patiently and remain faithful.”
(Revelation 13:10) (NLT).

“He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity:
he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword.
Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.”
(Revelation 13:10 (KJB).
​

In other words, this is saying that believers can sometimes go to prison and or be killed as a part of the faith (or in being faithful, i.e. the faith).

#20. Faith without works is dead (James 2:17). Can a dead faith save anyone?

#21. We are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24). The same word “justified" is used for both faith and works. Most Christians will not argue against how we are justified by faith in regards to salvation. But this same word “justified" is used in reference for works, too.

#22. James says he will show you his faith by his works (James 2:18).
For James says,

“Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith,
and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works,
and I will shew thee my faith by my works.”
(James 2:18).
​

James appears to criticize the person who has faith without works by saying show me your faith without works, and I will show my faith by my works. This means faith and works are tied together because works is how one shows their faith.

​

So in conclusion:

Faith is like a coin that has two sides to it. The first side of the coin of faith is trusting or believing in God's grace and seeking forgiveness with the Lord Jesus and believing the gospel, and the second side (or other side) of the coin of faith is the “work of faith.” (that is a part of the Sanctification Process of the Holy Spirit that helps us to live a holy life).

“Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:" (Hebrews 12:14).

“And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;" (Hebrews 5:9).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

“They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.” (Titus 1:16).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

@LoveofTruth

If my memory serves me correctly, you suggested that Acts 19:1-7 is solely a Spirit baptism and no water baptism is involved.
However, we see that there are three occurrences or events of others who were clearly water baptized in the name of Jesus.

#1. Pentecost (Acts 2:38).
#2. People in Samaria received the gospel by Philip (Acts 8:12) (Acts 8:16).
#3, Cornelius and his household (Acts 10:48).

In Acts 19:5, we see that Paul baptizes certain disciples of John the Baptist who are in Ephesus. Paul baptizes them in the name of Jesus. Yet, we know three other times in Scripture, others were baptized in the name of Jesus in water. So to say that Acts 19:1-7 is a Spirit baptism only (with no water) is not being consistent in regards to Scripture. There is no other place in Scripture where there is a Spirit baptism done (with no water) in the name of Jesus. Baptism in the name of Jesus according to the other verses in Scripture always show that it was in water. So we have to conclude that when Paul was about to water baptize these disciples of John (with him laying his hands on them), they then received the Spirit. This shows that the Spirit can potentially come upon a person before they are water baptized. However, we must keep in mind that Paul did not refuse to water baptize them, either. This is simply the best way to view this passage in Acts 19:1-7 honestly (When comparing Scripture with Scripture).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Acts 2 the Apostles were baptized with the HS and Peter ties it directly with Joel's prophecy..."this (apostles baptized with the HS) is that (Joel's prophecy)". Joel prophesied Gods' Spirit would be poured out upon ALL FLESH. All flesh does not mean every single person universally but they saw all flesh.mankind in 2 groups, Jew and Gentile. The only 2 places in the NT baptism with the HS occurs is with the apostles Acts 2 who were Jews and Cornelius Acts 10 a Gentile, therefore all flesh, Jew and Gentile had God's spirit poured out fulfilling, ending Joel's prophecy.
Therefore Joel's prophecy is NOT connected to anyone today. If Joel's prophecy was not fulfilled by the Lord, then the ENTIRE OT Law of Moses is still in effect today, right now, every jot and tittle of it.


People today make CLAIMS they have been baptized with the HS and perform miraculous signs but not according to the Bible can they back those baseless claims.

Actually, in Acts 19, the disciples of John were also baptized and when Paul laid his hands on them in the process of baptizing them… the Holy Spirit came upon them and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.

As for jots and tittles involving the Law in Matthew 5:

Jesus was referring to the Law OR THE PROPHETS.
The word “law” in verse 18 is referring back to, “the law, or the prophets” in verse 17 (KJB).

There is much in OT Prophecy (speaking about our future last days) that has not been fulfilled yet. Daniel, Isaiah, Amos, Joel, and Zechariah all speak of the upcoming end times.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No,

The Corinthians were divided over who had baptized them in chapter 1. And now in the context of 1 Corinthians chapter 12, the Corinthians were dividing themselves over the various miraculous gifts they received from the Spirit and some were claiming some gifts were superior to other gifts. But Paul brought unity to them showing that all miraculous gifts come from the same ONE Spirit so there should be no divisions, rivalries over the gifts among the Corinthians. Just as Paul brought unity by showing how they had all been baptized by ONE Spirit (agent) Who had instructed them through inspired teachers as Paul to be water (element) baptized into one body.

No one today has any miraculous gift given them by the HS nor has anyone today been baptized with the HS.

Not everyone in the early church spoke in tongues (1 Corinthians 12:29-31). Yet, 1 Corinthians 12:13 says all believers were baptized into the Spirit and made to drink of one Spirit. Baptism is just another name for washing. 1 Corinthians 6:11 says we are washed by the Spirit of our God.

1 Corinthians 6:11
“And such were some of you: but ye are washed,
but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in
the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.”

So we are washed (baptized) by the Spirit of our God in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.
This generally happens in our water baptism. But this may not always be the case because we see the Spirit come upon others before they are water baptized (Acts 10), and we see at another time when the Spirit came a good while later after they were water baptized (Acts 8).

The baptism of the Spirit in the early church many times included one speaking in tongues and prophesying.
But this was not said of everyone who was water baptized. This shows that tongues and prophecy were for specific individuals and not for everyone. While I believe tongues and prophecy have most likely ceased, I will not speak against anyone who claims to do so (Unless I see them barking, rolling on the floor, screaming, and or looking as if they are possessed). But I believe prophecy has most likely ceased do to the fact that the Bible has closed the book on any other future prophecies. For we are not to add to God's words without their being serious consequences (as mentioned in Revelation).

But the baptism into the Spirit is simply the receiving of the Spirit or being immersed into the Holy Spirit.
This should be obvious. A Christian should receive a love, joy, and a peace that they have never known before.
They should be radically changed when they accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior.

 

[Illuminator]

Not everyone in the early church spoke in tongues (1 Corinthians 12:29-31). Yet, 1 Corinthians 12:13 says all believers were baptized into the Spirit and made to drink of one Spirit. Baptism is just another name for washing. 1 Corinthians 6:11 says we are washed by the Spirit of our God.

1 Corinthians 6:11
“And such were some of you: but ye are washed,
but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in
the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.”

Yes, as Jesus plainly stated in John 3:5: "...water AND spirit.

So we are washed (baptized) by the Spirit of our God in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.
This generally happens in our water baptism. But this may not always be the case because we see the Spirit come upon others before they are water baptized (Acts 10), and we see at another time when the Spirit came a good while later after they were water baptized (Acts 8).

The baptism of the Spirit in the early church many times included one speaking in tongues and prophesying.
But this was not said of everyone who was water baptized. This shows that tongues and prophecy were for specific individuals and not for everyone. While I believe tongues and prophecy have most likely ceased, I will not speak against anyone who claims to do so (Unless I see them barking, rolling on the floor, screaming, and or looking as if they are possessed). But I believe prophecy has most likely ceased do to the fact that the Bible has closed the book on any other future prophecies. For we are not to add to God's words without their being serious consequences (as mentioned in Revelation).

But the baptism into the Spirit is simply the receiving of the Spirit or being immersed into the Holy Spirit.
This should be obvious. A Christian should receive a love, joy, and a peace that they have never known before.
They should be radically changed when they accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior.

Agreed. I believe water baptism is an essential fundamental doctrine whereas many believe it's just an ordinance and some believe it's not even a requirement. We are instructed to accept all baptized in Christ, with respect and affection, as brothers and sisters in the Lord.

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

read CCC817-820 for more context.

BH, I read page 1 of this thread. 95% of what you think about the Catholic Church is false, but I think you are a good Christain.
We are not your enemy.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Not everyone in the early church spoke in tongues (1 Corinthians 12:29-31). Yet, 1 Corinthians 12:13 says all believers were baptized into the Spirit and made to drink of one Spirit. Baptism is just another name for washing. 1 Corinthians 6:11 says we are washed by the Spirit of our God.

1 Corinthians 6:11
“And such were some of you: but ye are washed,
but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in
the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.”

So we are washed (baptized) by the Spirit of our God in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.
This generally happens in our water baptism. But this may not always be the case because we see the Spirit come upon others before they are water baptized (Acts 10), and we see at another time when the Spirit came a good while later after they were water baptized (Acts 8).

The baptism of the Spirit in the early church many times included one speaking in tongues and prophesying.
But this was not said of everyone who was water baptized. This shows that tongues and prophecy were for specific individuals and not for everyone. While I believe tongues and prophecy have most likely ceased, I will not speak against anyone who claims to do so (Unless I see them barking, rolling on the floor, screaming, and or looking as if they are possessed). But I believe prophecy has most likely ceased do to the fact that the Bible has closed the book on any other future prophecies. For we are not to add to God's words without their being serious consequences (as mentioned in Revelation).

But the baptism into the Spirit is simply the receiving of the Spirit or being immersed into the Holy Spirit.
This should be obvious. A Christian should receive a love, joy, and a peace that they have never known before.
They should be radically changed when they accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior.

Baptism with the HS occurs just 2 times in the NT, with the Apostles in Acts 2 and Gentiles Acts 10 fulfilling Joel's prophecy. This baptism had NOTHING to do with the personal salvation of the Jews or Gentiles. Instead it is the water baptism of the great commission that saves, that is commanded and this water baptism is how Jews and Gentiles are saved in a "like manner" way, Acts 15:11.

The Apostles, and only the Apostles, had the ability to lay hands upon another person and pass to that person an apostolic (2 Cor 12:12) miraculous gift. The Apostles did not lay hands upon all Christians, hence all Christians did not possess a miraculous gift, as you point out some had no gift at all, (1 cor 12:29-31). This laying on of hands by an Apostles is NOT baptism with the HS for 1) no where does the Bible call it baptism with the HS and 2) from Matt 3:11 only the Lord would baptize with the HS. After the Apostles died, no one was left to pass on miraculous gifts and when the last person died who possessed an Apostolic gift, then miracles ceased as Paul said they would having fulfilled their purpose in bringing about the inspired word of God and confirmation of that word, (Mk 16:19-20). Therefore there is no baptism with the HS today, no one today has been given an Apostolic gift for no obviously no Apostle is alive today to lay hands on anyone though there be many people who falsely claim to be an Apostle.

You cite 1 Cor 6:11
--the verb 'washed' is in the middle voice showing those Corinthians actively chose for themselves to obey God's command by being water baptized. Nowhere was anyone ever commanded to be baptized with the HS so it is not something one can actively obey.
--Paul water baptized some of those Corinthians himself being under the great commission which has humans water baptizing men.
--1 Cor 6:11 is the water baptism of the great commission where one is baptized "into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" meaning this baptism is by the authority of the Christ and HS, hence Paul water baptized those Corinthians by the authority of Christ and the HS, the HS did not baptize any Corinthians Himself.
--those who obeyed by being "washed" were sanctified and justified. Nowhere ever in the Bible is sanctification/justification associated with baptism with the HS. Hence the Gentiles were not saved/sanctified/justified when they were baptized with the HS but were still lost.
--so there is no verse that associates obedience in submitting oneself in being washed to baptism with the HS but with water baptism making water baptism the one baptism of Eph 4 that is commanded therefore can be obeyed, that saves/sanctifies/justifies/, that is administered by humans, that is for every creature, that lasts till the end of time...NONE of which is true with baptism with the HS.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Actually, in Acts 19, the disciples of John were also baptized and when Paul laid his hands on them in the process of baptizing them… the Holy Spirit came upon them and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.

As for jots and tittles involving the Law in Matthew 5:

Jesus was referring to the Law OR THE PROPHETS.
The word “law” in verse 18 is referring back to, “the law, or the prophets” in verse 17 (KJB).

There is much in OT Prophecy (speaking about our future last days) that has not been fulfilled yet. Daniel, Isaiah, Amos, Joel, and Zechariah all speak of the upcoming end times.

Joel's prophecy had to do with baptism with the HS, which was fulfilled.

--Apostles laying hands upon another is not in the Bible called baptism with the HS,
--only the Lord would baptize with the HS (Mt 3:11) hence no man can administer baptism with the HS for the great commission has men administering water baptism.
--if HS baptism is the one baptism of Eph 4 that makes one a disciple, that saves, then that means those whom the Lord has not baptize with the HS are lost due to the Lord's culpability in failing to baptize them with the HS and the Lord is showing respecter of person with whom He does and does not baptize with the HS contrary to Acts 10:34-35.

Mt 5:18
"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

Law here refers to the OT law of Moses of which Joel was one of the prophets. If Joel's prophecies were not fulfilled by Christ then all that OT law is still in effect including the animal sacrifices. the purifications, etc, etc. Of course Christ did fulfill all the OT law taking it out of the way replacing it with His NT, Col 2:14-16; Eph 2:14-16). The word "till" being a time limiting word, that is, the OT would last TILL Christ took it out of the way by fulfilling it. So if has not been taken out of the way through fulfillment then it must still ALL be in effect.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Grace and peace be unto you in the Lord Jesus today.

Well, to get down to another point you made:

Well, you are preaching to the choir about telling me how there are conditions, my friend. I know full well that we have to meet certain conditions as a part of the faith. This applies both in first being initially saved by God’s grace, and ALSO in abiding in the Sanctification of the Spirit to live a holy life (cleansing ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God - 2 Corinthians 7:1).

Believers can lose their salvation by sin or if they justify sin or even if they later believe an extremely heretical false man made doctrine (or doctrines). I believe we do have to labor (work) but this stems from faith. Faith in God’s Word. Faith in God Himself and trusting in the promises. Without faith it is impossible to please Him (GOD). If we make it all about works and no faith or grace, then we have fallen into the error of the Pharisees (even if we do not keep the ceremonial aspects of the Old Law). One of the major problems with the Pharisees is they made it all about works and no grace. We see this in the parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee in Luke 18:9-14.

My point is beliff is a work God gave to man to do contrary to those who think man is saved doing nothing, that is, saved by faith only.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

So you are saying you can believe without Christ’s drawing?
Are you saying you can believe in Jesus without the conviction of the Spirit?
Are you saying that babies who die are not saved by God’s grace?

The order is:

1. God's work upon the heart (of which we cannot believe without this) (John 6:29).

2. Faith in Jesus as our Savior, and a belief in the gospel message that Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and He was risen the third day for our salvation (is what must happen when we first get saved). This is a process of salvation without works (Ephesians 2:8-9) (Titus 3:5).

3. Faith in God's instructions (in the New Testament) which means one does the work of faith (John 6:27). This is the eventual labor that they are to do that endures to everlasting life. The work of faith is rooted in our believing God’s Word in that He can work and operate in us. It is believing God that He can empower us to live a holy life. This is the eventual result of God's work upon the heart to believe. God gets the credit for us believing (even though we have free will choice involved because God is the initiator and illuminator of our being able to believe).​

So John 6:26-29 is describing things in reverse order.
Jesus desires them to ultimately do the work of faith, but that can only start or begin when God does the work upon their heart to illuminate them to the truth of God's Word, and to convict them of their sin whereby they are able to make the choice to first believe in the Savior and the gospel message by faith initially (Which is received as a gift). But salvation is not continually received over and over and over as a gift. Gifts come with responsibilities otherwise you can lose them if you don't take care of them.

Side Note:

In John 6:28, the Jewish crowd is asking what must they do in order to do the works of God. Jesus desires them to do the eventual work of faith, but it takes time to get there and certain things first need to happen. The first thing that needs to happen is GOD (i.e. the work of God - John 6:29). GOD needs to work upon their heart and convict them of their sin at the right moment in their life and show them the truth of His Word. Once the truth is illuminated to them under God's drawing and call, they are able to believe. But God gets the credit for a person initially believing in God for salvation. Then after a believer has first trusted in Jesus and the gospel for salvation, they then move on to laboring for the food (work of faith) that endures to everlasting life (John 6:27). Obeying God's instructions in the Bible is simply continuing in the faith. But faith does start off as a belief alone (without works). If this is not the case, then verses like Romans 11:6, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5 cannot be true. All of Scripture needs to be read in harmony together. We cannot believe one verse in the wrong way at the expense of others.

The Bible teaches God draws men but not in some mysterious, unknown miraculous way apart from the word of God. For Jn 6:45 shows HOW God draws;
"It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me."

God/HS draw men by the word when men have be "taught", have "heard" and "learned" them men of their own free will obediently "cometh unto me".

Again, my point from Jn 6:27 is to show that belief is a work, that faith itself is a work that God has given man to do, therefore faith is not something God capriciously gives to some men apart from man hearing the word (Rom 10:17) as Calvinism claims. Since salvation is impossible apart from faith AND God has given man the opportunity to have faith, then in that sense it can be said God has credit for salvation for without God "giving" men the opportunity to a have working faith, then salvation would be impossible.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

All believers obey the gospel by daily dying with Christ and being buried with him and rising with him to walk in the Spirit in the newness of life as God works in them to will and to do and to make them perfect unto every good work, working in them that which is well pleasing through Jesus Christ. to obey the gospel is to walk inwardly with the Lord and to as Paul says, picking up your cross daily, denying ungodliness and worldly lust to live soberly righteously and godly. This is what the grace of God working in us teaches us. This is not a ceremonial; type that we are bound in. But the liberty of the Spirit.

The gospel is 1 Cor 15:1-4, that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, that he was buried and rose again the third day according to the scriptures.

This gospel is how we are saved. But when we believe we enter into the power of the gospel and we are crucified with Christ , buried with him and risen with him. This is a real spiritual reality in our new life in Christ. not a outward ceremony. This is how we obey the gospel. Paul touches on this here and in other places, consider,


4:10 "Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body."
4:11 "For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh."

The obedience of faith and yielding to the leading of the Spirit is part of the new creation in Christ we walk in the spirit and the fruit of the spirit is manifest in our life. It is spiritual which reflects in our daily life. This is not water baptism.

Foe example one of the fruit of the Spirit is love. But love can be shown in endless ways. It is not just one thing we do. Also the work is worked by love. Faith which worketh by love. This love of God is shed abroad in our heart by the Holy Ghost. Paul says by faith we enter into this grace and then the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts. This entering INTO the grace is as I understand the immersion INTO Christ and the grace that saves. By faith we enter into this.

To abide in Christ is by faith. Then the Lord works in us and we will him in the new creation. Yes we do things, for we can do all things through Christ. But the works are from the Spirit and reflect in our life. It is not a dead work r a type or shadow or ceremony that is the fruit. Water baptism was part of the Old Testament and particularly emphasized with John who baptized with water. This was to pass away and fade away with the OT. But it took time do do so and many clung to these things for a long time and even today do. They do not see the Jewish issue and the struggle of the OT and Mosaic law that they were dealing with.

consider this kind of obedience

Rom 16:26 "But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:"

Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love."

5:2 "By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
5:4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

You posted:
"All believers obey the gospel by daily dying with Christ and being buried with him and rising with him to walk in the Spirit in the newness of life..."

Yet 2 Thess 1:8 is NOT speaking about believers but speaks about LOST UNBELIEVERS who are lost and the REASON they are lost for they have "OBEYED NOT" the gospel of Christ.
The Jews in Rom 10:1-3 were lost for they would not obey the righteous commands of God.

Hence salvation is IMPOSSIBLE from obedience to God eliminating faith only.

Those in Acts 2 and Acts 10 were commanded to be water baptized, hence salvation would for them was IMPOSSIBLE apart from obedience to God's righteous commands. Only those who obey God's righteousness are accepted with God Acts 10:35. Obedience is not something just thought about but something one does in obedience to God's will.

Therefore salvation is IMPOSSIBLE apart from OBEYING the gospel of Christ per 2 Thess 1:8. And the only way the Bible teaches the gospel of Christ can be obeyed is by obediently submitting to water baptism where the old man of sin DIES, is BURIED and then RESURRECTED from that watery grave to walk in newness of life. Hence water baptism is a form of the gospel of Christ's death burial and resurrection which is the gospel.

Those in Rome had 'obeyed from the heart that FORM of doctrine". Rom 6:17. The word form, typos, means a figure, pattern, a mirror image, a figure form by a blow or impression. And water baptism is the only pattern, figure, mirror image of the gospel's death burial and resurrection of Christ. Not one verse shows that faith only, a sinner's prayer or baptism with the HS is a FORM of doctrine one obeys in order to be freed from sin/justified.

Rom 6:17 "that form of doctrine" - (my emp)
"Christians are said to have obeyed and which delivered them into a state of freedom from sin can be nothing if not a reference to baptism mentioned by Paul only a moment before. The great features of the Christian gospel are the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 (NAS)..and Paul had already shown in this chapter that by the means of believers' baptism into Christ, they were therefore dead with him, buried with him, and risen with him. This, together with the overtones of the confession in this verse, makes it a certainty that Paul here had reference to baptism. Let it be considered that the only way in which the gospel (death, burial and resurrection of Christ) can be obeyed is through obedience to some distinctive FORM of it, or PATTERN of it. People deny this implication in vain; for it is not merely in this passage, but constitutes the burden of Paul's teaching here. This conclusion is also supported by the words of Christ himself, who did not hesitate to use "baptism" and "gospel" as synonyms thus: `Go preach the gospel to the whole creation. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" (Mark 16:15,16 (NAS)

If baptism is not used in this passage as synonymous, in a sense, with gospel, how could Christ have commanded the gospel to be preached and something else to be obeyed? Thus, baptism indeed is a form of the gospel, and precisely "that form of teaching" Paul spoke of here." Coffman Commentaries.

In the great commission, Christ commanded the disciples to go, preach the gospel, baptizing them thereby making "gospel" synonymous with "baptizing". As the point is made above, how could Christ command the "gospel" to be preached but something else to be obeyed? That means water baptism must be that FORM of the gospel that is to be obeyed. Meaning those who have not obeyed the gospel have not been water baptized. Hence when the true gospel is preached, that means water baptism must also be taught since it is "that form" of the gospel/doctrine of Christ.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Not true, again, consider your correction from scripture here,

"8:14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
8:17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
8:18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,"(Acts 8:14-18 KJV)


Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."

"Utter most part of the Earth" shows the future extent of the Holy Ghost power and gifts given. This is for all believers.


Act 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost."


Act 13:52 And the disciples were filled with joy, and with the Holy Ghost."


Act 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

This was many years after Pentecost.



I, and many believers have experienced these wondrous things. The testimonies would be too long to speak of here. But all things are still among the saints today, in various measures.

Acts 2 with the Apostles and Acts 10 with the Gentiles are the only 2 places in the Bible where the Lord baptized men with the HS.

In Acts 1:1-8 Jesus was speaking with His Apostles promising them alone baptism with the HS for only the Apostles were promised the Comforter that would by inspiration teach them all things, bring all things to their remembrance.

None of the other verses you cite are baptism with the HS nor is it called baptism with the HS. The Apostles could lay hands upon another and pass on a miraculous apostolic gift (2 Cor 12:12) but that is not baptism with the HS which only the Lord would administer per Matt 3:11.

Water baptism therefore can only be the one baptism of Eph 4:5 that is in effect today, water baptism of the great commission administered by men, commanded. saves, how Christians are made and lasts till the end of time totally eliminating baptism with the HS.

People today can only make unsubstantiated claims about being baptized with the HS then performing miraculous signs for they have no biblical basis behind those claims nor performed any miraculous sign as confirmation of having been given miraculous signs.

Miraculous signs were for a particular time and purpose in bring about the word of God and confirmation of that word (Mk 16:19-20) and they fulfilled their purpose back in the 1st century therefore ceased, passed away as Paul said they would.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

The prophecy began at Pentecost and will continue to be ongoing until Christ return. There are other parts of the prophecy that have not happened yet, as we read

"And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
2:29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call."

None of these things after verse 39 have happened yet, so they are future which brings the prophecy into the future and an ongoing fulfillment in a broader way. This would mean that none of the gifts given are to end until Christ comes back. We read of sons and daughter prophesying. We see prophecy all through the Book of Acts and in Corinthians and other places. Paul even encourages all believers to seek to prophesy. if it was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost and none were to do any more after that then you confound your doctrine by many other scriptures where all are encouraged to prophesy.

"Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy." (1 Corinthians 14:1 KJV)

Peter also said "And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh..."(Acts 2:17 KJV). The "last days" we are still in. These last days refer to the last days before Christ comes. John the apostle also uses a similar an expression saying we are in the last time. He wrote this way after pentecost and the words of Peter, consider

"Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time."(1 John 2:18 KJV)

We read of the last days in other places which are removed in time from the day of pentecost

2 Tim 3:1 "This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come."

2 Pet 3:3 "Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,"

Joel 2:11 is still future also as part of the prophecy

"And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?"(Joel 2:11)

We also read of Israel being converted gathered and other things, which had not happened yet

"2:12 Therefore also now, saith the LORD, turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning: 2:13 And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil.
2:14 Who knoweth if he will return and repent, and leave a blessing behind him; even a meat offering and a drink offering unto the LORD your God?
2:15 Blow the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly:
2:16 Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet.
2:17 Let the priests, the ministers of the LORD, weep between the porch and the altar, and let them say, Spare thy people, O LORD, and give not thine heritage to reproach, that the heathen should rule over them: wherefore should they say among the people, Where is their God?"(Joel 2:13-17 KJV)

So the fulfillment of the prophecy began at Pentecost and is ongoing to the future.



I don't agree with you here according to scripture. We see the Holy Ghost poured out on all believing Jews and gentiles and Samaritans also in Acts. We see pPaul encourage all believers to seek to prophesy and other spiritual gifts. We see the expression all flesh used in ways that can only mean every human being. Now when I say all flesh having the Spirit poured upon them, I am referring to those who have faith. Jesus said the Holy Ghost is given to those who ask (in faith).

Consider the "all flesh" expression as it has been used. Snd God does not contradict himself or say one thing and mean a different thing. God is the one who gave prophecy .

Gen 6:12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth."

Was "all flesh" here only a small number or a certain select group? No

Gen 6:17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die."

Was "all flesh" here only a select group and not referring to all humanity (the faithful in the ark excluded)

Num 27:16 Let the LORD, the God of the spirits of all flesh, set a man over the congregation,"

Job 34:15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.

Nothing in the context says Joel's prophecy would last till Christ returns but all was fulfilled by Christ to being to an end of the OT law and prophets else all the OT law is still in effect today with is animal sacrifices, purification, etc (Mt 5:18). Therefore water baptism administered by men can be the one baptism of EPh 4:5 in effect today as clearly seen in Acts 8 where the Spirit did NOT baptize the eunuch Himself, but sent for a man, Phillip, to teach and water baptize the eunuch. No water baptism with the HS, no miraculous knowledge given the eunuch apart from Phillip teaching him and no miraculous signs were done by the eunuch.

"All flesh" as used by Joel cannot be universally inclusive nor does it mean animals since animals also have flesh. Hence not every person nor animals are baptized with the HS meaning the word all flesh is limited in sense. We know from 1 Cor 12:29-31 that even in the first century when they could perform signs, not all Christians had signs so all flesh cannot even be applied to ALL Christians. And we know every person universally is not baptized with the HS. Therefore it is used to describe all making being divided into Jew or Gentile as that is how they viewed mankind back at that time. In the context of Romans chapters 1-3 Paul says 'all have sinned' he was referring to the two groups Jew and Gentiles.....Jews have sinned and Gentiles have sinned.....therefore ALL (Jew and Gentile) have sinned. He is not speaking about every single person universally for that would include Christ, infants and those born with severe mental disabilities who have no sins.

So no one today has been baptized with the HS nor given miraculous signs.

 

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My point is beliff is a work God gave to man to do contrary to those who think man is saved doing nothing, that is, saved by faith only.

Paul seemed to think a person can be saved by God’s grace through faith without works in Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, Romans 4:3-5, Romans 11:6. So your argument is not with me but with Paul. In other words, you are guilty of the same thing that Perpetual Belief Alone Salvationists make in that they are not believing various sets of verses at face value in what they plainly say. There has to be a way to believe the words of Paul and also Jesus & James. We must harmonize the words of both Jesus and Paul. I believe the best way is to understand that Paul was talking many times about being initially saved vs. Jesus, & James who clearly referred many times to living out our faith (in the Sanctification Process as a secondary aspect of salvation) after we were initially saved by God’s grace. This is the only logical conclusion in believing the whole counsel of God’s Word vs. going down one wrong end of the spectrum (Making it either an abuse of God’s grace vs. Making it all about works and no grace ever).

Protestant Perpetual Belief Alone Salvationists generally fall into abusing His grace (whereby the warnings of Jesus about sin potentially destroying our souls is nonexistent).

Works Alone Salvationists (like the Catholic Church and the Church of Christ) falsely teach faith can never exist without works when we see that Hebrews 11:3 says,

“Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.” (Hebrews 11:3).

Yes, faith is described as something we also do like Noah preparing an ark to the saving of his house (Hebrews 11:7), but faith is also a belief, too; For Abraham believed in the promise of God’s words in that his descendants will be as the stars of the sky (See: Romans 4:3, Romans 4:5, Genesis 15:3-6). This belief (which is a belief alone) was imputed to him as righteousness.

 

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The Bible teaches God draws men but not in some mysterious, unknown miraculous way apart from the word of God. For Jn 6:45 shows HOW God draws;
"It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me."

God/HS draw men by the word when men have be "taught", have "heard" and "learned" them men of their own free will obediently "cometh unto me".

Again, my point from Jn 6:27 is to show that belief is a work, that faith itself is a work that God has given man to do, therefore faith is not something God capriciously gives to some men apart from man hearing the word (Rom 10:17) as Calvinism claims. Since salvation is impossible apart from faith AND God has given man the opportunity to have faith, then in that sense it can be said God has credit for salvation for without God "giving" men the opportunity to a have working faith, then salvation would be impossible.

First, I am against all five points of Calvinism.

Second, this drawing by the Father was before the cross (that applied to the Jew at that time).

John 12:32 says,

“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.”

Jesus opened up the Scriptures to the two disciples who were on the road to Emmaus (Luke 24:13-35). This means it is not just our will alone that makes the understanding of God’s Word possible.

 

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Yes, as Jesus plainly stated in John 3:5: "...water AND spirit.


Agreed. I believe water baptism is an essential fundamental doctrine whereas many believe it's just an ordinance and some believe it's not even a requirement. We are instructed to accept all baptized in Christ, with respect and affection, as brothers and sisters in the Lord.

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

read CCC817-820 for more context.

BH, I read page 1 of this thread. 95% of what you think about the Catholic Church is false, but I think you are a good Christain.
We are not your enemy.

In John 3:5:

We must be born of water and the Spirit to enter the Kingdom.

Being born again by the Spirit is obvious in the fact that we are changed by the Spirit on a radical level. Before I came to Christ, I was an atheist at one point in my life. But when I accepted Jesus Christ as my Savior in 1992, I felt a love, joy, and peace I had never known before. I was spiritually and radically changed by the Lord Jesus Christ. Being born again or becoming a son of God happens when we receive Christ or we truly believe properly in the name of Jesus for salvation (John 1:12).

While being born of water can be referring to being born of the washing of the Spirit, I take this to mean primarily as being born by the Word of God (i.e. Scripture). How so? Well, faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17). In the parable of the sower we learn that the seed is the Word of God (Luke 8:11). By another parable, we know that the sower of that seed is Jesus (Matthew 13:37). So Jesus sows God’s words for us to have eternal life. For Jesus says His words are spirit and they are life (John 6:63). Ephesians 5:25-27 basically says how Christ gave Himself for us so that He might sanctify us with the washing of “the WATER of the Word” so that He might present to Himself a church that is holy, and without blemish. This means the Word of God (the Bible) is to cleanse us in the Sanctification Process by the Spirit so that we may be holy in our conduct to the point of blamelessness before our Lord Jesus. Peter says “Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God,” (1 Peter 1:23). This is referring to the communicated Word of God like audible spoken words of God or Scripture. For the context supports this in the fact that we are told: “As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:” (1 Peter 2:2). Meaning, you had a major radical spiritual change and or experience by the Bible itself alone. The Bible is no longer a dead book but it has come alive to you personally (Whereby you do not need other men to ultimately teach you - See: 1 John 2:27). By this birth by the Word, you realize that no other words but the Bible alone can satisfy or be ultimately trusted. In short, the Bible becomes your sole lifeline in spiritual guidance by the Lord GOD (the blessed Creator and Savior).

You are most likely deeply sucked into Catholicism. No offense, but if this is the case, then I see this type of situation as sort of like a drunkard who cannot see how his alcoholism is killing him. He is in too deep into his sin to think clearly or rationally. But with the Lord our God, nothing is impossible to break the chains of deception, sin, and or false religion (See also: 1 Thessalonians 5:7).

While the Catholic Church may like to try and change the Scriptures, with an honest plain reading of the Bible we know: Idolatry has always been characterized as bowing down to statues and or kissing them (Which is what Catholics do). Yeah, I know of the Catholic’s ark excuse and it does not hold water. Then there is the praying to dead people (Mary and the saints) when prayer is only an honor giving to God alone. Nowhere do we see in the Bible this kind of unholy practice of praying to dead people with it being okay with God. Contacting the dead is necromancy. Catholics also make Mary to be some kind of co-redeemer when that is not what is clearly taught in God’s Word. Catholics even killed their own people for even having the Scriptures. Catholics even killed others like William Tyndale for translating the Bible into English. Then Catholics tried to kill King James and the KJB translation with a super bomb. There is no doubt that the King James Bible was the most poplar bible for hundreds of years that went out to the common man that the Catholics did not want to see happen. Why? Because of this…

So before 1943, you would not even be allowed to study the Scriptures and reply back to me. You would just be a blind follower of whatever your leaders say.

In other words, the Catholic agenda was always to take the Bible away from people. It’s what we see throughout history and even today. There are many unbiblical things and moral problems with the Catholic Church that I could write about for days, but this is not really the topic of this thread. Lord willing, and if this forum will allow it, I would like to create a thread on why the Catholic Church is unbiblical.

While I love you in Jesus Christ, I abhor your religion, and I believe it is profane in the eyes of the one true God (violating tons of Scripture verses and attempting to re-write history to make them appear good when that is clearly not the case).