Do you believe Spirit baptism replaces water baptism?

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Illuminator

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You do not understand nessary inference.


Mark 16:15-16,
he that believes and is baptized will be saved
The gospel of Jesus Christ infers only men are candidates for the gospel.
Babies have no faith, so it is inferred they are not included in the great commission.
If they are then the catholic church better start baptizing atheists.
You reject infant baptism because your reject the doctrine of Original Sin, a doctrine accepted by most Protestants. That places you in a fringe minority. You had better rip Romans 5 out of your Bible.
The catholic church began in Rome.
No, it began in Jerusalem. After the death of James, centrality was shifted to Rome by Peter and Paul.
You are in that ever evolving church.
The historic Church doesn't evolve, it develops.
I'm not protestant.
It is not the church Christ established.
True, Christ did not establish Protestantism that had a rather late start.
The church Christ built began in 30-33ad
The catholic church came much later in history,
Who told you that? Cite sources please.
The apostles warned of its coming,
1Timothy 4:1-3,
- Now the Spirit expressly says that in LATTER TIMES(The catholic church began after the Lord established His church) some will depart from the faith giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron. forbidding to marry and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.
For every creature of God is  good and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving.
For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
Paul is describing Gnostics who were trying to infiltrate the communities. They "forbid marriage" because they believed the flesh is evil; that had nothing to do with Jesus and Paul's teaching on marriage. Same with "abstaining from foods." The Gnostics were not fasting according to Jesus and Paul, they abstained from foods because they thought certain foods were evil.
Deceiving spirits like Ignatius of Antioch,

In recent years it has become more apparent that the statements attributed to Ignatius cannot by taken as the true picture of conditions in the church, but rather represent what he wanted them to be.
It is traditionally believed that Ignatius was ordained by the apostle Peter(appointed elder not an apostle) and for a time served as a chairman of the elders in the church at Antioch. He was arrested during a persecution under Trajan and was escorted to Rome in the care of ten soldiers to be thrown to the wild beasts in the amphitheater......
You are dead wrong about Ignatius.
It is thought that his permission to talk with Polycarp and dictate to secretaries do not harmonize with true conditions during the period of persecution. Furthermore, in a letter to the church at Rome he pleads passionately with the brethren there to make no effort to prevent his martyrdom. which seems absurd since it is not likely that the church at Rome had enough influence to have prevented his martyrdom even if they had tried. His desire for martyrdom and his attitude toward the elders of the church has led many to believe that he had a NEUROTIC WILL TO POWER and that this explains his statements that elders should be IN SUBJECTION TO THEIR BISHOPS. A consideration of external conditions surrounding the writing of these letters and statements made in the letters themselves has CAUSED ABLE SCHOLARS OF THE PAST TO DOUBT THEIR GENUINENESS.
The other writers of this period all agree that the churches were GOVERNED BY A PLURALITY OF ELDERS AND THERE WAS NO CONGREGATION WHICH HAD A MONARCHIAL BISHOP AS IGNATIUS ADVOCATES.
The Anglican J.B. Lightfoot, no great fan of Catholic (whom he terms “Romanists”) nevertheless concedes that “throughout the thirteen letters the same doctrines are maintained, the same heresies assailed, and the same theological terms employed. In this respect no difference can be traced between the two sets of epistles.” So while there may have been theological reasons (responding to the Apollinarian or Arian heresies) for the forgery of the additional 6 letters, nothing theological (between Catholics and Protestants) turns on these spurious letters. Anything that Protestants would object to in the six false letters is also found in the seven genuine letters.
You Catholics always use uninspired men as your evidence for the unbiblical practices and doctrines of your church!
If that's true, then all the reformers are uninspired men, and nobody is right, except you.
Give Scripture that teaches what Ignatius of Antioch advocated?
You cannot this is why you always use uninspired men as your "proof" for what you preach.
Give scriptures that denies what Ignatius of Antioch advocated, since you claim to have all authority to yourself.

Many Protestants make historical claims about how Christ founded the pure, Apostolic Church but that this Church slowly fell away from the truth: either after Constantine legalized Christianity in the fourth century, or during the so-called “Dark Ages,” etc., then corruption slowly crept in. The Apostolic Church, it is claimed, had a body of “presbyter-bishops,” governing the church by committee. These committees were slowly replaced by individual bishops (even though we have no record of a single church recording such a takeover!); meanwhile, superstitions like the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist crept in.

Ignatius shows that all of these historical claims are pure fiction. Ignatius isn’t inventing belief in the Real Presence or in the distinction between the bishop and presbyters, or about the necessity to be in union with the visible Church (in the person of the bishop) for salvation. He’s speaking to people who already believe this, and speaking to them within a few years of the death of the Apostle John.

For Protestants to be right on these questions, we would have to assume that
(a) the Church fell into heresy almost immediately and universally after the death of St. John, and
(b) that modern Protestants and @Titus understands Apostolic theology better than the men who sat at the feet of the Apostles.

But those assumptions beggar belief. So we now know what Calvin and @Titus did not:
that his beliefs about the early Church are demonstrably false,
and point to the fact that his theology is demonstrably false.


 
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Marymog

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Jesus replied, "I am the way, the truth, and the life". John 14:6 That is as clear as it gets, and no Pope, Catholic doctrine, etc. will ever change that.
Jim B,

Your "response", which is an interjection into a conversation between Titus and I, does not address my question. It only begs me to ask the same question: The truth according to WHO'S interpretation of His words? The Baptist? Lutherans? Methodists? They all preach a different "truth". Which one is the "truth"?

You made it clear that you don't agree with Catholic interpretation......so who's interpretation do you agree with? Your own, I suspect!
 
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Marymog

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LOL!!! I am not the one who follows the unScriptural teachings of the Pope, a position that is not mentioned anywhere in Scripture. The Catholic church has lied to you and you are the one who has fallen for the unScriptural teachings.

Obviously you're not aware, Jesus defeated Rome, not vice-versa.
Dear Jim B,

You have decided that The Churches teaching is unscriptural. Since you KNOW that what The Church teaches is unscriptural then you must KNOW who's teaching is not unscriptural.

Please tell me who's teaching is Scriptural.

patient Mary
 

Grailhunter

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What is apostolic succession?

The Catholics would like to believe they are the sole heir to the uninterrupted transmission of spiritual authority from the Apostles through successive popes and bishops, that is the Roman Catholic Church but that is denied by Protestants and history.

Terms have been hoodwinking people from the very beginning. Apostolic Succession....what is it?.....Lets try to sort out the truth….what is and what is not….and a lot of it has to do with time periods.

At the end of the biblical era….lets call it 65 AD….to the end of the 1st century.

There are two distinctly different Christian beliefs and various personal beliefs. You have the Jewish-Christians that are more or less messianic Jews. They are practicing a lot of Jewish things. They are still centered on the Temple and are observing the Saturday Jewish Sabbath. They are more or less loosely observing the 613 Mosaic Laws….I say loosely because there are things they can not do in that period because they are not self ruled. But they are still observing the Law on circumcision and strict dietary restrictions and still practicing polygamy and probably concubinage. Most of the Jewish-Christian Apostles are not married, but they are not requiring Jewish converts to Christianity that have multiple wives to divorce all except one. The “central authority” for the Jewish-Christians was James, the brother of Christ and not an Apostle.

Then you have the Gentile Christians that are made up of Pagan converts, called Gentiles in the Bible. Of the twelve Apostles only one converted to the Gentile teachings of Paul….That was Peter. Peter did not write a Gospel that we know of. Matthew and John were the only Apostles to write Gospels. Mark and Luke were not among the twelve chosen Apostles. Mark was a disciple of Peter and Luke was a disciple of Paul.

The Gentile-Christians do not center on the Temple. Of the 613 Mosaic Laws they are observing the Laws on abstaining from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from sexual immorality. If there is anything else, the Bible and history does not document it. All moral guidance came from Christ and the Apostles.

A letter from James the Christian leader at the time, to the congregations of Christianity.
Acts 15:19-29
Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from sexual immorality and from what is strangled and from blood. For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath.” Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them to send to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas—Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren, and they sent this letter by them, “The apostles and the brethren who are elders, to the brethren in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia who are from the Gentiles, greetings. “Since we have heard that some of our number to whom we gave no instruction have disturbed you with their words, unsettling your souls, it seemed good to us, having become of one mind, to select men to send to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. “Therefore we have sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will also report the same things by word of mouth. “For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials: that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from sexual immorality; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell.”

( You may notice that your Bibles use the word fornication instead of sexual immorality. The word fornication and its definition is not biblical and no Greek equivalent appears in the actual scriptures. So there ya are for sola scriptura. )

The Gentile-Christians are the branch of Christianity that was increasing and spreading rapidly. Pagans converting from different regions of the Middle East and Asia Minor and North Africa. They converted their religious beliefs but did not abandon their regional cultures. They have various seasonal holidays that they continue to celebrate and they are the ones that brought the custom of wedding ceremonies into Christianity and it catches on slowly.

At this point Christianity exists as a ragtag group of outcasts in the Roman Empire, that are in hiding and meet in secret places to worship, underground in catacombs, out in wilderness, small groups meet in homes. Any large group out in the open is susceptible to attack by the Romans or harassment by the Jews. There are no church buildings until after the Edict of Milan by Emperor Constantine in 313 AD and the 1st Nicene council in 325 AD.

Who can claim apostolic succession to these groups? Answer; Nearly every Christian in history and today. Why is that? Apostolic succession is not a bloodline, it’s not a baton that is handed to each succession of leadership. There is no proclamation or certificate. Christian leadership as a central authority is a very loose concept in this period. At this point Christianity exists as a set of core beliefs, but still beliefs vary from region to region. Actually authoritative apostolic succession to this period is really a misnomer. You really cannot have a succession of authority in a belief system until that set of beliefs becomes organized and its authority agreed upon and that information distributed.....which takes a while in this time period.

Besides that, which group would you want to try to claim succession of authority to? Do you want to be a Jewish-Christian and join the Jews in their synagogues? Do you want to observe the 613 Mosaic Laws…which you couldn’t do even if you wanted to because you end up in prison or in an insane asylum. And observing the so called “Ten Commandments”? It is strictly forbidden to separate ten laws from the 613 Mosaic Laws and according to the Mosaic Law anyone that does that should be stoned to death at their earliest opportunity. Besides that the Jewish-Christians had pretty much died out by the end of the first century. How do we know that? Well mostly history and there are no early Christian writings by Jewish- Christians.

So the Gentile-Christians would be the more logical choice even though it is still impossible. Besides Christ, Paul and Peter more closely represent modern Christian beliefs and there is no reason to focus on Peter. Paul is the leader of the Gentile-Christians and Peter join him as part of the team…so to speak. But still Paul and Peter are both very influential as to the beliefs of modern Christianity. But who can claim a lineage back to them?….Christians….the Catholics have no more right to claim a lineage back to the Apostles than any other Christian. We are talking about a set of beliefs that we hold in common with Christ and the Apostles and that is our connection. But Christ is the one to focus on, not Peter or any other Apostle. Focusing on the authority of men is a bad idea and wrong thinking. The Catholic Church's lust for power lead it astray and ruined it. The only leader we know of in this time period is James. Despite what Christ said to Peter, he never took a leadership role.

So then we move on to when the Catholic Church was formed. We can look back in history and say certain people were Catholic…. but when did they start calling themselves Catholic, when was someone called Pope when he was alive? For all practicality the Ecumenical Councils standardized and organized the Catholic Church and the power of the Roman Empire enforce it and protected it. All of the primary Churches of Christianity were represented at the councils and set the standard for the Catholic Church.
 
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Marymog

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Paul and Peter did not preach the same identical Gospel....it made no difference....BOTH were initiated by God Himself and both depended upon Jesus....Peter preached the Crucification as a terrible thing that the Jews did to their Messiah and they needed to realize that and Reoent for what they had done....Paul preached that same Crucifixion as the way if Salvation....he claimed to preach NOTHING but “ Christ Crucified”...
I don't see in your response you addressing what we were discussing....baptism...but I digress.
 

Marymog

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My faith did not come from the reformation of the catholic church.
Nor does my faith come post catholicism
That is a dodge and a non-answer.....
 

Marymog

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I reject all reformation doctrine as well as the catholic church.

I am seperate and apart from the reformation of the catholic church.

So I dont need any lessons on history of the church or the apostles doctrine, Acts 2:42 from you
You make your own doctrine. You have already made that clear.
 

BreadOfLife

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You do not understand nessary inference.
Mark 16:15-16,
he that believes and is baptized will be saved
The gospel of Jesus Christ infers only men are candidates for the gospel.
Babies have no faith, so it is inferred they are not included in the great commission.
If they are then the catholic church better start baptizing atheists.
Onca AGAINN:

- The 8 day-old babies in the OT entered into a Covenant with God based on the faith of their parents.

- Peter and Paul Baptized entire HOUSEHOLDS based on the faith of the heads of those households (Cornelius, Philippian Jailer, Stephanas -
Acts 10:1-49, 11:13-14, Acts 16:23-33, 1 Cor. 1:16).
The catholic church began in Rome.
You are in that ever evolving church.
No – it began in Jerusalem.

The Church at Rome BECAME the preeminent See because of all of the work Peter and Paul did there. Peter, being the leader was Bishop of that Church.
It’s called the Catholic Church – not the “Roman” Catholic Church.

I'm not protestant.
It is not the church Christ established.
The church Christ built began in 30-33ad
The catholic church came much later in history,
The apostles warned of its coming,
1Timothy 4:1-3,
- Now the Spirit expressly says that in LATTER TIMES(The catholic church began after the Lord established His church) some will depart from the faith giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron. forbidding to marry and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.
For every creature of God is  good and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving.
For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

Deceiving spirits like Ignatius of Antioch,
WOW.
Now, you’ve entered into the realm of abject ignorance.

The passage above is about the Gnostic heretics on Paul’s time – not come “future” sect. The Gnostics forbade marriage, the eating of certain foods and condemned all possessions as evil.
That’s a real novice mistake . . .

And, I’ve got news for you –
If you are a Christian and you’re NOT Catholic or Orthodox – you are a PROTESTANT by definition.

In recent years it has become more apparent that the statements attributed to Ignatius cannot by taken as the true picture of conditions in the church, but rather represent what he wanted them to be.
It is traditionally believed that Ignatius was ordained by the apostle Peter(appointed elder not an apostle) and for a time served as a chairman of the elders in the church at Antioch. He was arrested during a persecution under Trajan and was escorted to Rome in the care of ten soldiers to be thrown to the wild beasts in the amphitheater......

It is thought that his permission to talk with Polycarp and dictate to secretaries do not harmonize with true conditions during the period of persecution. Furthermore, in a letter to the church at Rome he pleads passionately with the brethren there to make no effort to prevent his martyrdom. which seems absurd since it is not likely that the church at Rome had enough influence to have prevented his martyrdom even if they had tried. His desire for martyrdom and his attitude toward the elders of the church has led many to believe that he had a NEUROTIC WILL TO POWER and that this explains his statements that elders should be IN SUBJECTION TO THEIR BISHOPS. A consideration of external conditions surrounding the writing of these letters and statements made in the letters themselves has CAUSED ABLE SCHOLARS OF THE PAST TO DOUBT THEIR GENUINENESS.
The other writers of this period all agree that the churches were GOVERNED BY A PLURALITY OF ELDERS AND THERE WAS NO CONGREGATION WHICH HAD A MONARCHIAL BISHOP AS IGNATIUS ADVOCATES.


You Catholics always use uninspired men as your evidence for the unbiblical practices and doctrines of your church!

Give Scripture that teaches what Ignatius of Antioch advocated?
You cannot this is why you always use uninspired men as your "proof" for what you preach.
A TRULY idiotic theory.

You actually believe that the Church at Rome had some kind of “pull” with the pagan Romans in the 2nd century – when Christianity is OUTLAWED??

Revisionism
on
STEROIDS . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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Again, your argument is fallacious because it depends on an equivocation of "office." Peter is talking about the role Judas was to play as one of the twelve. That is one definition of "office." Another, related definition of "office" denotes an official and essential function within an organization. And the absence of someone in that position is detrimental to the organization.

So then, whereas Peter intends the first meaning, you assign the second meaning to his words. Consider the office of priest, for instance. The priest plays a vital role in the Catholic church because a priest is necessary to perform the Sacraments. In this case, the office of the priest is necessary and essential to Catholic praxis and can not remain vacated for long.

If I see a Catholic priest, wearing a black shirt and a white collar, I respect his office as a priest, even though I no nothing at all about the character or the heart of the man. We all expect each and every man who holds the office of Catholic priest to be a man beyond reproach, men of dignity, men of integrity, not insincere, not prone to drink much wine, not greedy for money, and etc. And we also expect that an organization dedicated to teaching and faith to excommunicate a man who touches a kid in an inappropriate manner.

But the Catholic church did not excommunicate these men; the Catholic church moved them to a different location. These men were relocated, not to protect kids, but to protect the "office" of Pastor. These boys trusted the man with the white collar because such men are typically beyond reproach and dedicated to service and ministry. But some of the men were not. For this reason I say that the man himself, not the office is important. And if the man is above reproach, a man of good character and trustworthy, then he deserves my respect and my honor -- not because he is a priest but because he is a lover of God.

The point is, what good does the office of priest do for the church if the men who were appointed to that office violate the trust of those whom he serves? And what good is a religious organization if it fails to represent the will of God?
That was quite a diatribe. I especially like the part about the “predator priests” – although is has absolutely NOTHING to do with Apostolic Succession.

You guys ALWAUS sink down into the mud on this topic when you’re arguments run out of steam – but you ALWAYS seem to forget that the problem is far worse in your own congregations . . .

How Protestant Churches Hid Sexual Abuse ...

Blogger Who Exposed Protestant Sex Abuse Cover Up Sued By Her Pastor

Denial About Sexual Abuse In Evangelical Churches

Southern Baptists Apologize For Sex Abuse Coverups

Confronting Evangelical Enabling of Sexual Abuse

Bombshell: sex abuse, coverup in America's largest Protestant ...

Southern Baptist leaders covered up sex abuse, kept secret ...


Clergy Abuse Coverup within the Protestant Church
I don't really care about what Irenaeus said. I don't.
I know you don’t.
It’s history – and most Protestant turn a completely BLIND EYE to history.

I heard you the first time.
And it’s STILL true that Episkopay translates as “Bishopric”.
No, I persist in my pursuit of relevant facts. What do I care about the etymology of the term "Bishop"? It isn't relevant. You claim, incorrectly that an episkopos is an office to hold and must be filled when vacated. I see no evidence of such an "office." What I see is the role of the overseer appointed to individuals of good reputation and character.
Then show me an example of a of a leadership office that doesn’t have successors.
I don't see that.
Of course you don’t.

You’re just another anti-Catholic, living in
denial . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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The point is, Peter appointed the man to act as an overseer. Peter felt no need to fill an office of Bishop.
Ignatius succeeded Peter as Bishop of Antioch.
Like I said – it’s a matter of history – and YOU can’t handle history . . .

Yes, that's right. And who among you can do this?
ONE more time –

The ORIGINAL group needed to have been with Jesus from the beginning.
This is NOT true for successors - or ANY convert to the faith.

You and I have a different concept of "successor."
Yes.
I say a successor continues the work of a predecessor.

YOU claim successors doesn’t exist . . .

We are led by the Bible and the Holy Spirit. Where do your leaders obtain what they believe?
From the Bible and the constant living Tradition of 2000 years of Apostolic teaching.
Does it matter where your religion got its paganism? Give us a break.
Gee – another impotent, hit-and-run jab.
What a surprise . . .
 
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Bible Highlighter

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Please stay on topic to the thread please. This thread is about baptism.

Thank you.
 

Jim B

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Jim B,

Your "response", which is an interjection into a conversation between Titus and I, does not address my question. It only begs me to ask the same question: The truth according to WHO'S interpretation of His words? The Baptist? Lutherans? Methodists? They all preach a different "truth". Which one is the "truth"?

You made it clear that you don't agree with Catholic interpretation......so who's interpretation do you agree with? Your own, I suspect!
You are correct! I believe what the Lord has shown me to be true, not what some unScriptural hierarchy of paid priests has told me is true.

In your list of "WHO's" interpretation -- World Health Organization? -- you forgot to include the Catholic denomination. Gee, I wonder why!

BTW, you are in a discussion forum. If you want to have a discussion with Titus then PM him.
 

Jim B

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Dear Jim B,

You have decided that The Churches teaching is unscriptural. Since you KNOW that what The Church teaches is unscriptural then you must KNOW who's teaching is not unscriptural.

Please tell me who's teaching is Scriptural.

patient Mary
This is total nonsense (and full of grammatical errors).

When you say "The Churches [sic] teaching is unscriptural" are you referring to the Catholic denomination? If you are, you're spiritually blind, as the Catholic denomination is not the church.

The Bible is God's word. If any teaching adheres to what the Bible says, then it is Scriptural.
 

CadyandZoe

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That was quite a diatribe. I especially like the part about the “predator priests” – although is has absolutely NOTHING to do with Apostolic Succession.
The point relates to the difference between an "office" and a "man." Do you understand.
You guys ALWAUS sink down into the mud on this topic when you’re arguments run out of steam – but you ALWAYS seem to forget that the problem is far worse in your own congregations . . .
The point remains. YOU claim that the RCC is a reliable source for faith and practice. Evidence proves otherwise. Wake up and smell the coffee. This isn't a "Catholic vs Protestant" argument. If you thought that, then you misjudged the debate. This is a Religion vs Faith argument. I reject Protestantism as much as I reject Catholicism. As I say often, Jesus didn't come to start a new religion.
I know you don’t.
It’s history – and most Protestant turn a completely BLIND EYE to history.
Don't assume anything about me.
And it’s STILL true that Episkopay translates as “Bishopric”.
And so what? Why should I care how a word is translated. Anyone can invent a translation to suit their paradigm.
Then show me an example of a of a leadership office that doesn’t have successors.
There is no such thing as a leadership office in the Christian ecclesia. There are only leaders.
Of course you don’t.

You’re just another anti-Catholic, living in
denial . . .
I am anti-Religion, all religions.
 

CadyandZoe

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Ignatius succeeded Peter as Bishop of Antioch.
Like I said – it’s a matter of history – and YOU can’t handle history . . .
Wrong, Ignatius did NOT succeed Peter. It isn't a matter of history; its a matter category. Ignatius did not fill the vacant office of Apostleship. Ignatius wasn't an apostle. Peter was.
ONE more time –

The ORIGINAL group needed to have been with Jesus from the beginning.
This is NOT true for successors - or ANY convert to the faith.
Duh. So no one alive can take the place of Judas.
Yes.
I say a successor continues the work of a predecessor.
So what? There are no successors.
YOU claim successors doesn’t exist . . .
That's right.
From the Bible and the constant living Tradition of 2000 years of Apostolic teaching.
Your view of succession is based on a faulty interpretation of the scriptures.
Gee – another impotent, hit-and-run jab.
What a surprise . . .
Get used to it.
 

BreadOfLife

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The point relates to the difference between an "office" and a "man." Do you understand.

The point remains. YOU claim that the RCC is a reliable source for faith and practice. Evidence proves otherwise. Wake up and smell the coffee. This isn't a "Catholic vs Protestant" argument. If you thought that, then you misjudged the debate. This is a Religion vs Faith argument. I reject Protestantism as much as I reject Catholicism. As I say often, Jesus didn't come to start a new religion.

Don't assume anything about me.

And so what? Why should I care how a word is translated. Anyone can invent a translation to suit their paradigm.

There is no such thing as a leadership office in the Christian ecclesia. There are only leaders.

I am anti-Religion, all religions.
Wrong, Ignatius did NOT succeed Peter. It isn't a matter of history; its a matter category. Ignatius did not fill the vacant office of Apostleship. Ignatius wasn't an apostle. Peter was.

Duh. So no one alive can take the place of Judas.

So what? There are no successors.

That's right.

Your view of succession is based on a faulty interpretation of the scriptures.

Get used to it.
This is an idiotic conversation.
I supply you with historical and Scriptural facts – and YOU offer a litany of denials and rejections

Let me know when you’re ready to have a GROWN-UP conversation where you actually have to provide some substance . . .


Relatives
of your??


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Titus

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You reject infant baptism because your reject the doctrine of Original Sin, a doctrine accepted by most Protestants. That places you in a fringe minority. You had better rip Romans 5 out of your Bible
Your interpretation of Romans 5 is eisegesis. No need to tear anything out of the Bible.
Your Bible however does need much tore out of it for it contains unbiblical uninspired books that God did not write.
Heretical books in the catholic bible,
Tobit
Judith
Esther
1Maccabees
2 Maccabees
Wisdom
Sirach
Baruch

Catholicism perverts Gods word, obvious why it is not Gods church nor should be trusted as a source of authority.

The historic Church doesn't evolve, it develops
Homosexuality acceptance is growing in the catholic church.
This is an evolution in catholic "moral" teachings.
Catholicism has never taught or agreed with the apostles teachings.

True, Christ did not establish Protestantism that had a rather late start.
Protestant belief of Babies being totally depraved wicked sinners came from the catholic churches false doctrine of orginal sin.
Both came too late in history.
Christ church was established before Catholicism or Protestanism.

is describing Gnostics who were trying to infiltrate the communities. They "forbid marriage" because they believed the flesh is evil; that had nothing to do with Jesus and Paul's teaching on marriage. Same with "abstaining from foods." The Gnostics were not fasting according to Jesus and Paul, they abstained from foods because they thought certain foods were evil.
Fact is catholic doctrine took from gnostic beliefs.
That is how these verses are including both gnostics and catholics.
Show me in the Scriptures were foods and marriage is not allowed as you Catholics have taught and bound on your congregations.
You cannot.

You are dead wrong about Ignatius
Ignatius was wicked. He left the pattern of the Lords church to create a new church later known as the catholic church.

Prove me wrong.
Ignatius of Antioch taught,
Where in the new testament was the church ruled by a monarchial bishop as Ignatius advocated?
Give book, chapter and verse.
You cannot, this is why you must use uninspired men like Ignatius as your proof for the practices of the corrupt catholic church.

I'll be waiting for some Biblical evidence.

If that's true, then all the reformers are uninspired men, and nobody is right, except you.
Reformers are teaching calvinism, which is unbiblical.
Where did the reformers get Orginal sin doctrine from? Answer catholicism.
The reformers never went back to the bible.
They took what teachings they liked from Catholicism and incorporated those into their new revised version of the catholic church.

During this time in history Gods people were still only following the Bible.
Tracing the history of christians only not sectarians is nearly impossible because sectarian groups pervert history. Look at what leftist liberals are doing today to American history. Our younger generations are no longer taught true American history in public schools.
History is tampered with by the wicked.

Paul is describing Gnostics who were trying to infiltrate the communities. They "forbid marriage" because they believed the flesh is evil; that had nothing to do with Jesus and Paul's teaching on marriage. Same with "abstaining from foods." The Gnostics were not fasting according to Jesus and Paul, they abstained from foods because they thought certain foods were evil
Catholicism has always been involved in paganism.
The Catholics incorporated gnostic teachings, this is why catholics had celibate "priests" and monks.
Also abstain from meats on certain days of the week. All unbiblical practices by the catholic church.
The bible condemns catholic doctrine as well as gnostic.

A more modern day practice of paganism in the catholic church in Mexico is their observance of the day of the dead.
Show me in the Bible were Christian's took part in pagan beliefs?
The Bible condemns these practices.

The day of the dead is traced back to an Aztec festival dedicated to a goddess called Mictecascihvatl.
This festival held beginning at October 31 to November 6.
The participants in this pagan festival welcome back deceased relatives as they offer them food and drink.
Catholicism involves its church in pagan practices. No apostle would take part in paganism.

For Protestants to be right on these questions, we would have to assume that
(a) the Church fell into heresy almost immediately and universally after the death of St. John, and
Catholicism nor the protestant 1000's of denominations know who the true church is.
Why else would there be all this sectarian division if they understood there is only one church.
Catholicism is just another sect among other sects. It is an older sect that the 1500-1600 sectarian divisions but not even the oldest sect as we read sects were already forming in the 1st. Century.
1Corinthians 1:11,
- For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren by those of Chloes household, that there are contentions among you.
- Now I say this that each of you says I am of Paul or I am of Apollos or I am of Cephas or I am of Christ.
- Is Christ DIVIDED, was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul,
I thank God I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius.

1Timothy 1:3,
- As I urged you when I went into Macedonia remain in Ephesus that you may charge some that they teach no other doctrine.

Philippians 2:2,
- fulfill my joy by being like minded having the same love of one another, of one mind.

Paul was correcting and encouraging brethren to not form contentions, divisions, because it had ALREADY BEGUN.

But those assumptions beggar belief. So we now know what Calvin and @Titus did not:
that his beliefs about the early Church are demonstrably false,
and point to the fact that his theology is demonstrably false.
I'll be waiting for your book, chapter and verse on the apostles teaching a monarchical bishop ruling over all the local churches as Ignatius endorsed.

This is why you do not use scripture but uninspired men to "prove" your heretical catholic doctrine.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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Many of your posts have nothing to do with baptism. For example #862, #869.
Yes. I am aware of that. We all go off topic now and then. I am trying to get it back on topic.
To my memory (Which may be in error): You are the first person in my 12 years of talking on Christian forums to argue with me over trying to get back on topic (in situations like these). It seems like you just want to argue or disagree with just about anything. Generally it is considered courteous to respect the wishes of the person who created the thread in getting back on topic if they are expressing that desire (even if they did go off topic themselves - which naturally happens at times because we are human).

The problem arises when folks express the desire to get back on topic and people just ignore it (Thereby being rude and or unloving).
 
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Illuminator

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Please stay on topic to the thread please. This thread is about baptism.

Thank you.

Apostolic and Early Church Teaching on Baptism​

I think the choices with regard to the history of the doctrine of baptism really boil down to:

1) belief that the apostles had one teaching on the subject, and

2) belief that the apostles contradicted each other,
and/or that the Bible is internally incoherent on baptism,
and/or that several contradictory positions can be legitimately, simultaneously held by Christians, which absolutely guarantees the presence of outright falsehood in the Church (by the law of contradiction).

As for the view of the early Church (first two centuries) on baptism, respected Protestant Church historian J. N .D. Kelly writes:

It was always held to convey the remission of sins . . . the theory that it mediated the Holy Spirit was fairly general . . . The early view, therefore, like the Pauline, would seem to be that baptism itself is the vehicle for conveying the Spirit to believers; in all this period we nowhere come across any clear pointers to the existence of a separate rite, such as unction or the laying on of hands, appropriated to this purpose.
(Early Christian Doctrines, San Francisco: Harper Collins, rev. ed., 1978, 194-195)
Likewise, The New International Dictionary of the Christian Church (ed. J. D. Douglas, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan, rev. ed., 1978, 100, “Baptism”), another respected Protestant reference work, which shows no inclination for Catholicism at all, in its tone or content, states:

Doctrinally, baptism very early came to be understood as a means of grace or a sacrament, in the sense of an instrumental means of regeneration . . . Infant baptism was practiced in the second century, but only with the aid of an adult sponsor.

The Nicene Creed includes the phrase: “We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.”

The second century is not late at all for a doctrine to be fairly developmentally “mature,” when we stop to recognize something like, e.g., the canon of Scripture. Before 160, the New Testament itself was not always clearly distinguished from other Christian writings. Justin Martyr’s “gospels” contained apocryphal material (he also did not accept Philippians, 1 and 2 Timothy, Titus, and Philemon as Scripture); Acts was scarcely known or quoted. Hebrews, James, 1 and 2 Peter, 1, 2, 3 John, Jude, and Revelation were not considered part of the canon, and many of these books weren’t even yet quoted.

Therefore, if infant baptism must go due to lack of early enough attestation (as if the 2nd century were too “late”), then the New Testament canon goes with it. Since Protestants will not relinquish the New Testament canon on these grounds, then the argument against infant baptism on the same grounds must collapse, lest a double standard be applied.

Moreover, original sin is accepted by Protestants, yet it, too, was a late development, and was not even included in the Nicene Creed. That doesn’t stop Protestants from accepting it, despite its “lateness.” Ditto for infant baptism. The patristic and biblical evidences for infant and regenerative baptism are quite good.

Scripture is not unclear about baptismal regeneration. I think it is quite clear, with a number of unambiguous and strong proof texts. Secondly, since regeneration is a power conferred in the water (ex opere operato, as we say; literally, “in working, it works” – i.e., it has inherent sacramental power to give grace), it can be applied to a baby just as to an adult. If one believes that it takes away original sin, and all people have original sin, including babies, and that knowledge of what is happening is not essential to the practice (and sacrament) then infant baptism follows straightforwardly).

I would contend, therefore, that the evidence for baptismal regeneration is strong in Scripture. Strong deductive reasoning leads to infant baptism as a result of that conclusion. Infant baptism is also suggested in Scripture, though far less directly. The patristic consensus was uniform on this matter. There is a reason for that. We say it is because it is true in the first place. God guides His Church, and such a consensus is the outward, objective indication of that, and the means of apostolic succession.

If one claims that the early Church on baptism is like current Protestantism, then why not be like them with regard to the canon of Scripture in the 2nd century? If doctrinal diversity on baptism in the early Church suggests the same should accrue today, then why not canonical diversity? Why not diversity on the nature of the Godhead (Arians didn’t emerge till the 4th century, Nestorianism in the 5th, and Monophysitism even later)? Why not allow all that diversity? If we are going to establish principles and analogies on one doctrine, then why just one and not others? How do we decide which ones to choose to compare to the situation in the early Church?

Well, I think when all is said and done, the argument becomes a circular one: Protestants choose those things that fit into the Protestant thinking and reject those that do not. Why? Because Protestants claim to go by the Bible alone, and history is never determinative. So it is used selectively, wherever it seems to “fit” the Protestant mold. Scripture supposedly, in theory, settles every major issue, since it is “perspicuous.” Yet with central, important issues like baptism and Eucharist, Protestants can’t figure out what the Bible teaches. Thus, they are forced to relativize and (in effect) trivialize those things and assert that whatever one believes about them is fine. I think that is a thoroughly unbiblical attitude, and irrational as well.

Catholics think consensus through history is important because we look at doctrine incarnationally. God preserves His Church, His Body. The Church is the living embodiment of God’s truth, in the apostolic doctrine, passed down. We are not determining truth by a “head count,” yet we think that whatever is true will be seen to have achieved a consensus among Christians throughout history (what we Catholics call the sensus fidelium), precisely because God so ordained it and preserved His truth.

 
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