Do you believe Spirit baptism replaces water baptism?

[atpollard]

You are not getting the bigger scope of the picture of Bible history.
Just as the Bible talks about there being two vines (Vine of Sodom) (True Vine), there are two lines of manuscripts.

People that say crazy things like this would probably be shocked at how little the two manuscripts differ from one another.
(FYI: Absolutely NO biblical doctrines are impacted.)

So list 3 verses impacted by the TR vs MGNT manuscript traditions and we will examine them in detail.

Here is a controversial verse thrown in for free:

• John 6:44 [MGNT] οὐδεὶς δύναται ἐλθεῖν πρός με ἐὰν μὴ ὁ πατὴρ ὁ πέμψας με ἑλκύσῃ αὐτόν κἀγὼ ἀναστήσω αὐτὸν ἐν τῇ ἐσχάτῃ ἡμέρᾳ
• John 6:44 [TR] οὐδεὶς δύναται ἐλθεῖν πρός με ἐὰν μὴ ὁ πατὴρ ὁ πέμψας με ἑλκύσῃ αὐτόν καὶ ἐγὼ ἀναστήσω αὐτὸν τῇ ἐσχάτῃ ἡμέρᾳ

See the difference?
Neither do I! Both manuscript lines are IDENTICAL.

[KJV] No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
[NASB] “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
[NLT] For no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me, and at the last day I will raise them up.
[YLT] no one is able to come unto me, if the Father who sent me may not draw him, and I will raise him up in the last day;
[NIV] “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

 

[Johann]

People that say crazy things like this would probably be shocked at how little the two manuscripts differ from one another.
(FYI: Absolutely NO biblical doctrines are impacted.)

So list 3 verses impacted by the TR vs MGNT manuscript traditions and we will examine them in detail.

Here is a controversial verse thrown in for free:

• John 6:44 [MGNT] οὐδεὶς δύναται ἐλθεῖν πρός με ἐὰν μὴ ὁ πατὴρ ὁ πέμψας με ἑλκύσῃ αὐτόν κἀγὼ ἀναστήσω αὐτὸν ἐν τῇ ἐσχάτῃ ἡμέρᾳ
• John 6:44 [TR] οὐδεὶς δύναται ἐλθεῖν πρός με ἐὰν μὴ ὁ πατὴρ ὁ πέμψας με ἑλκύσῃ αὐτόν καὶ ἐγὼ ἀναστήσω αὐτὸν τῇ ἐσχάτῃ ἡμέρᾳ

See the difference?
Neither do I! Both manuscript lines are IDENTICAL.

[KJV] No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
[NASB] “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
[NLT] For no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me, and at the last day I will raise them up.
[YLT] no one is able to come unto me, if the Father who sent me may not draw him, and I will raise him up in the last day;
[NIV] “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

Absolutely correct.
J.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

And yet-the very next verse-

Jas 2:25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?
Jas 2:26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.


2:25 "Rahab the harlot" She was Judaism's ultimate proof of God's forgiveness and the power of repentance (i.e., a Canaanite prostitute, cf. Joshua 2). She also is an ancestor of Jesus (cf. Matt. 1:4). James uses two extremes, Abraham and Rahab, to prove his point.

2:26 Active love is to faith what the breath is to the human body. We could summarize James' description of lifeless faith as

demonic, James 2:19
vain, James 2:20
dead, James 2:26.

J.

Rahab worked because she had faith. Not to earn justification.

James is making the case that people who have real faith. not just a claimed faith. will work. their works show their faith was real

 

[Johann]

Rahab worked because she had faith. Not to earn justification.

James is making the case that people who have real faith. not just a claimed faith. will work. their works show their faith was real

In what sense was Rahab justified?

 

[Behold]

In what sense was Rahab justified?

"without faith it is impossible to please God".

"Its according to God's Grace we are saved, and not by works".

Jesus is Salvation, and once we have HIM as our Salvation, then our behavior, our works, will come, but not to save us, and not to keep us saved.

 

[Johann]

"without faith it is impossible to please God".

"Its according to God's Grace we are saved, and not by works".

Jesus is Salvation, and once we have HIM as our Salvation, then our behavior, our works, will come, but not to save us, and not to keep us saved.

See? At least we agree on works now-for we are His workmanship-created UNTO good works-as per James and Matt 25-not to KEEP us saved-naturally.
J.

 

[Titus]

Good works are the act of obeying/doing Gods commandments.
The apostle John taught that belief in Jesus is a commandment of God.

Question: Is it possible for a person to obey a commandment of God without doing a good work?
Answer: No, when one submits to God by doing His commandments that obedience is the good works that the new testament teaches all to do.

Ephesians 2:10,
- for we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus for GOOD WORKS which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

These good works are also referred to as works of righteousness by the apostles,

Acts 10:35,
- but in every nation whoever fears God and works righteousness is  accepted by Him

King David revealed that these good works of righteousness are working/doing/obeying Gods commandments,

Psalm 119: 172,
- My tongue shall speak of Your word, for all Your commandments are righteousness


Now that the Scriptures have affirmed Gods commandments when obeyed are the good works God created us to do.

With this knowledge we know that it is impossible to obey Gods commandments without doing good works.

1John 3:23-24,
- And this is Gods commandment that we should BELIEVE on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another as He gave us commandment

Conclusion: Since believing in Jesus is a direct commandment of God, it must be true that faith in Jesus is working the commandment to believe in Jesus, 1John 3:23-24.

Logically it is therefore impossible to believe in Jesus without doing a good work.

The Bible disproves salvation apart from works.
Salvation Biblically understood is a salvation by a working faith, never a faith that is void of good works.

"Faith" and no works salvation is an invention by men that were deceived by satan.

James teaches us faith without obedience/works to Jesus' new testament commandments is worthless!

James 1:22,
- but be doers(obey Gods commandments) of the word(Christ's gospel) and NOT hearers only, deceiving yourselves

James next chapter asks the question, can faith absent of good works save us?
James 2:14,
- what does it profit my brethren if someone says he has faith but does NOT have works, can faith alone SAVE him

James is asking if faith that works obedience to God or faith that has no works can save.

Now listen to James' answer on which kind of faith has the power to save(justification).

James 2:17,
- thus also faith by itself if it does not have works, is WORTHLESS

James 2:20,
- but do you want to know O foolish man that faith without works is dead(worthless)

James 2:24,
- You see then that a man is justified by works(obedience to Jesus' new testament commandments) and NOT by faith alone(a worthless faith according to James and Paul)

Paul teaches the same about faith that has no works as a faith that is worthless as Paul describes it, it is of no profit,

Galatians 5:6,
- for in Christ Jesus neither circumcision profits anything nor uncircumcision but faith working through love

Paul's knowledge of God leads him to teach that faith that obeys God is a faith that loves God,
John 14:21,
- he who has My commandments and keeps(obeys) them it is he who  loves Me and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father and I will love him and manifest Myself to him

Conclusion: Faith alone according to the Bible is a worthless faith.
Those who preach faith without works salvation
Are trying to be saved with a worthlesss dead faith!!!

Logically faith absent of works is an impossibility according to John 1John 3:23-24.
Faith only salvation in reality is savation through disobedience to Gods commandments.

This faith alone salvation(disobedience) is a false gospel that the devil uses to deceive millions!

The proponents of this religion believe you do not have to obey all of Jesus' new testament commandments to be saved.
This is the very first trick used by the great deceiver on the first man and women,

God gives a commandment that if obeyed Adam and Eve will never die!
But if this commandment is disobeyed Adam and Eve will die!
The devil twists Gods word and tells Eve that they can disobey Gods commandment and still be saved forever, live forever.
Exactly the same lie the devil is using today on those who are told you do not have to obey Jesus' commandments to be saved.

Genesis 2:16-17,
- and the Lord God commanded the man saying of every tree of the garden you may freely eat,
but of the tree of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die

Genesis 3:4,
- then the serpent said to the women, You shall not surely die(disobedience to Gods commandment)

Ask a faith onlyist if we can disobey Gods commandments like for example baptism into Christ and be saved?

The answer is always Yes, you shall surely not die!!!!
The works of the devil blind men will do.

 

[Johann]

Amen and well said brother! In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

"justified by works"

This is the Greek verb dikaioō. The semantic field (possible meanings and connotations) of this term is interesting:

From Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, and Danker, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament (p. 196-197)
"Show justice" or "do justice to someone"
"Justify, vindicate, treat as just"
Paul uses the term for God's judgment
of men
"be acquitted"
"be pronounced and treated as righteous"
of God's activity ‒ "make upright"
"to make free or pure" (active) or "to be made free or pure" (passive)
"God is proved to be right"
From Louw and Nida, Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains, 2nd edition (vol. 2 p. 64).
"to put right with" (vol. 1, 34:46, p. 452)
"show to be right" (vol. 1, 86:16, p. 744)
"acquit" (vol. 1, 56:34, p. 557)
"set free" (vol. 1, 37:138, p. 489)
"obey righteous commands" (vol. 1, 36:22, p. 468)

When one compares these lexical usages it becomes clear how Paul could use this term in one way (specialized forensic sense of "made righteous") and James in another (shown to be righteous by one's godly living).

The term is fluid enough to allow both. But please remember it is a "both/and" situation, not an "either/or." Also be careful of a set theological definition of this term (or any term) which is then read into every usage of the word in Scripture. Words only have meaning in specific contexts!

J.

 

[Johann]

Good works are the act of obeying/doing Gods commandments.
The apostle John taught that belief in Jesus is a commandment of God.

Question: Is it possible for a person to obey a commandment of God without doing a good work?
Answer: No, when one submits to God by doing His commandments that obedience is the good works that the new testament teaches all to do.

Ephesians 2:10,
- for we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus for GOOD WORKS which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

These good works are also referred to as works of righteousness by the apostles,

Acts 10:35,
- but in every nation whoever fears God and works righteousness is  accepted by Him

King David revealed that these good works of righteousness are working/doing/obeying Gods commandments,

Psalm 119: 172,
- My tongue shall speak of Your word, for all Your commandments are righteousness


Now that the Scriptures have affirmed Gods commandments when obeyed are the good works God created us to do.

With this knowledge we know that it is impossible to obey Gods commandments without doing good works.

1John 3:23-24,
- And this is Gods commandment that we should BELIEVE on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another as He gave us commandment

Conclusion: Since believing in Jesus is a direct commandment of God, it must be true that faith in Jesus is working the commandment to believe in Jesus, 1John 3:23-24.

Logically it is therefore impossible to believe in Jesus without doing a good work.

The Bible disproves salvation apart from works.
Salvation Biblically understood is a salvation by a working faith, never a faith that is void of good works.

"Faith" and no works salvation is an invention by men that were deceived by satan.

James teaches us faith without obedience/works to Jesus' new testament commandments is worthless!

James 1:22,
- but be doers(obey Gods commandments) of the word(Christ's gospel) and NOT hearers only, deceiving yourselves

James next chapter asks the question, can faith absent of good works save us?
James 2:14,
- what does it profit my brethren if someone says he has faith but does NOT have works, can faith alone SAVE him

James is asking if faith that works obedience to God or faith that has no works can save.

Now listen to James' answer on which kind of faith has the power to save(justification).

James 2:17,
- thus also faith by itself if it does not have works, is WORTHLESS

James 2:20,
- but do you want to know O foolish man that faith without works is dead(worthless)

James 2:24,
- You see then that a man is justified by works(obedience to Jesus' new testament commandments) and NOT by faith alone(a worthless faith according to James and Paul)

Paul teaches the same about faith that has no works as a faith that is worthless as Paul describes it, it is of no profit,

Galatians 5:6,
- for in Christ Jesus neither circumcision profits anything nor uncircumcision but faith working through love

Paul's knowledge of God leads him to teach that faith that obeys God is a faith that loves God,
John 14:21,
- he who has My commandments and keeps(obeys) them it is he who  loves Me and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father and I will love him and manifest Myself to him

Conclusion: Faith alone according to the Bible is a worthless faith.
Those who preach faith without works salvation
Are trying to be saved with a worthlesss dead faith!!!

Logically faith absent of works is an impossibility according to John 1John 3:23-24.
Faith only salvation in reality is savation through disobedience to Gods commandments.

This faith alone salvation(disobedience) is a false gospel that the devil uses to deceive millions!

The proponents of this religion believe you do not have to obey all of Jesus' new testament commandments to be saved.
This is the very first trick used by the great deceiver on the first man and women,

God gives a commandment that if obeyed Adam and Eve will never die!
But if this commandment is disobeyed Adam and Eve will die!
The devil twists Gods word and tells Eve that they can disobey Gods commandment and still be saved forever, live forever.
Exactly the same lie the devil is using today on those who are told you do not have to obey Jesus' commandments to be saved.

Genesis 2:16-17,
- and the Lord God commanded the man saying of every tree of the garden you may freely eat,
but of the tree of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die

Genesis 3:4,
- then the serpent said to the women, You shall not surely die(disobedience to Gods commandment)

Ask a faith onlyist if we can disobey Gods commandments like for example baptism into Christ and be saved?

The answer is always Yes, you shall surely not die!!!!
The works of the devil blind men will do.

Excellent summation-in full agreement brother.
J.

 

[atpollard]

Question: Is it possible for a person to obey a commandment of God without doing a good work?
Answer: No, when one submits to God by doing His commandments that obedience is the good works that the new testament teaches all to do.

Yes.
I never murdered anyone ... so that was one "commandment of God" that I kept. However, I was an atheist, so "obeying god (the invisible unicorn)" never entered my mind as a motivation. In addition, I hated a great many people, so as Jesus later explained, I am still "guilty of murder in my heart" (even if I obeyed that one command, written in stone). Thus, NO GOOD WORK.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Good works are the act of obeying/doing Gods commandments.
The apostle John taught that belief in Jesus is a commandment of God.

Question: Is it possible for a person to obey a commandment of God without doing a good work?
Answer: No, when one submits to God by doing His commandments that obedience is the good works that the new testament teaches all to do.

What about an unbeliever.

when he/she honors their parents. is it a good work?

 

[Titus]

Excellent summation-in full agreement brother.
J.

Thank you. The power of Gods word will always expose the darkness with light to those who are seeking the truth.

 

[ChristisGod]

Rahab worked because she had faith. Not to earn justification.

James is making the case that people who have real faith. not just a claimed faith. will work. their works show their faith was real

ditto faith without works is an oxymoron and its a dead faith not a living faith. Paul agrees since we are saved by grace through faith with the purpose of good works which God has prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:10.

hope this helps !!!

 

[DJT_47]

And yet-the very next verse-

Jas 2:25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?
Jas 2:26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.


2:25 "Rahab the harlot" She was Judaism's ultimate proof of God's forgiveness and the power of repentance (i.e., a Canaanite prostitute, cf. Joshua 2). She also is an ancestor of Jesus (cf. Matt. 1:4). James uses two extremes, Abraham and Rahab, to prove his point.

2:26 Active love is to faith what the breath is to the human body. We could summarize James' description of lifeless faith as

demonic, James 2:19
vain, James 2:20
dead, James 2:26.

J.

To all those who erroneously claim baptism is a "work". A work of what? Is teaching others a work? Is/was preaching a "work"? Was the laying on of the apostle's hands a "work"? Is believing with the fleshly mind or confessing with the mouth a "work"? Is praying a "work"?

Everything done with the physical body requires effort, a "work" of some kind. God left his "work" on earth to be done by man and all these "works" so-called are necessary and required.

 

[Johann]

Thank you. The power of Gods word will always expose the darkness with light to those who are seeking the truth.

I am always seeking after truth-as I am very reclusive, not by choice-and about a month ago stumbled upon Dr. Utley-a Baptist minister in hermeneutics, and since then realized how little I know.
But again, thank you @Titus we are never too old to learn with likeminded brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus-online-since we are all in this race, clothed with the full armor of God-and when one stumble-the others are there to give a helping hand.
Johann.

 

[Johann]

To all those who erroneously claim baptism is a "work". A work of what? Is teaching others a work? Is/was preaching a "work"? Was the laying on of the apostle's hands a "work"? Is believing with the fleshly mind or confessing with the mouth a "work"? Is praying a "work"?

Everything done with the physical body requires effort, a "work" of some kind. God left his "work" on earth to be done by man and all these "works" so-called are necessary and required.

Works done in the sphere of the Holy Spirit is diametrically opposed to those done IN the body-void of the Spirit.
J.

 

[ChristisGod]

To all those who erroneously claim baptism is a "work". A work of what? Is teaching others a work? Is/was preaching a "work"? Was the laying on of the apostle's hands a "work"? Is believing with the fleshly mind or confessing with the mouth a "work"? Is praying a "work"?

Everything done with the physical body requires effort, a "work" of some kind. God left his "work" on earth to be done by man and all these "works" so-called are necessary and required.

Amen. better become a monk and live in a cave lol. But that must also be a work too.

 

[mailmandan]

And yet-the very next verse-

Jas 2:25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?
Jas 2:26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

2:25 "Rahab the harlot" She was Judaism's ultimate proof of God's forgiveness and the power of repentance (i.e., a Canaanite prostitute, cf. Joshua 2). She also is an ancestor of Jesus (cf. Matt. 1:4). James uses two extremes, Abraham and Rahab, to prove his point.

2:26 Active love is to faith what the breath is to the human body. We could summarize James' description of lifeless faith as

demonic, James 2:19
vain, James 2:20
dead, James 2:26.

J.

Yes and the comparison of the human spirit and faith converge around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life.

 

[ChristisGod]

Yes and the comparison of the human spirit and faith converge around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life.

ditto !

 

[Titus]

What about an unbeliever.

when he/she honors their parents. is it a good

Doing good works when they are in accordance with Gods commandments like obedience to parents or telling the truth is a good work.
But doing good works never can save a person, Ephesians 2:8-9.
The only works that are involved in ones salvation is when one does those good works as their motive of belief in Jesus and a desire to submit to Gods will, Matthew 7:21-23.

The wicked or lost alien sinners do good works sometimes but doing good cannot get one to heaven.

This also is a false gospel known as meriting salvation by doing more good in this life than wrong(sin).

Many also believe that if they just live a "good enough" life that God will allow them into heaven.

That would be earning your salvation by doing God works.

Only when one completely chooses to submit his life to God by forsaking all willfull sin.
And give His life to Christ by believing in all that Jesus is and taught in His gospel can then recieve Gods grace and mercy.

Doing good works can be for yourself or others and have nothing to do with giving God glory, serving God. The Bible never teaches one can be saved by faith alone nor does the Bible teach one can be saved by good works alone.

An atheist can do good works but his good works cannot earn him Gods saving grace.

The Bible teaches Gods plan for saving man is as follows,

Ephesians 2:8-9,
- For by grace(Gods part) you have been saved through faith(mans part) and NOT of yourselves(cannot be earned through good works) it is the gift(cannot be earned) of God,
not of works(meritorious works) lest anyone should boast(men when boast of their works if they earned themselves salvation)

Grace is conditional based upon an OBEDIENT faith!!! James 2:24, Acts 10:35, 1John 2:2-5

- now by this we know God IF we keep His commandments, he who says I know God and does not keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him
but whoever obeys His word truly the love of God is perfected in him, by this(doing good works) we know that we are in God

Therefore no amount of good works without belief in Jesus can be effective in receiving Gods grace.
Likewise no amount of belief apart from obedience to Gods commandments can be effective in receiving Gods grace.

God requires both in His plan of saving mankind.

I have never taught or believed that my obedience to God saved me by merit.
The Bible teaches against this.
That is just another false gospel from the devil!