Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
I have said this so many times now I lost count
I have said this also.
so why do you think I think otherwise?
Do you believe Spirit baptism replaces water baptism?
- Thread starter Bible Highlighter
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
so why do you think I think otherwise?
Johann
Well-Known Member
Tax collector: Please cite the scripture.
Read the account of the conversion of the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8 and read Romans 10:9. Confession of belief is prior to being saved not after, so, i don't know what you did nor why, but it wasn't scriptural nor of any value.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
about what?
What do you disagree with that I am saying? can you be specific?
I have read the whole bible multiple times..
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Luke 18: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’ 13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be [d]humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”
what work did he do?
Trying to replace spirit baptism with water baptism has no scriptural value either, yet you do it.
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
Over several 100 time why do you ask ?
Did I miss some secret knowledge or revelation that was hidden ?
atpollard
Well-Known Member
I hate getting answers like that!
"WHAT???? There are 25 Chapters in Matthew! I always stopped at Matthew 24 all these years! What a fool that I have been."
I bet they have read Matthew 25 and Revelation.
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
lol I'm with ya brother.I hate getting answers like that!
"WHAT???? There are 25 Chapters in Matthew! I always stopped at Matthew 24 all these years! What a fool that I have been."
I bet they have read Matthew 25 and Revelations.
Johann
Well-Known Member
Looks like there is a communication problem-no worries!
2:10 "we are His workmanship," The English word "poem" comes from this Greek term (poiēma). This word is only used two times in the NT, here and Rom. 1:20. This is the believers' position in grace. They are paradoxically His finished product which is still in process!
"created in Christ Jesus"
This is an aorist passive participle. The Spirit forms believers through Christ's ministry by the will of the Father (cf. Eph. 1:3-14). This act of a new spiritual creation is described in the same terms used of the initial creation in Genesis (cf. Gen. 3:9; Col. 1:16).
"for good works"
Believers' lifestyles after they meet Christ are an evidence of their salvation (cf. James and 1 John). They are saved by grace through faith unto works! They are saved to serve! Faith without works is dead, as are works without faith (cf. Matt. 7:21-23 and James 2:14-26).
Salvation is a gate and a way/road. The goal of the Father's choice is that believers be "holy and blameless" (cf. Eph. 1:4).
Paul was often attacked for his radically free gospel because it seemed to encourage godless living. A gospel so seemingly unconnected to moral performance must lead to abuse. Paul's gospel was free in the grace of God, but it also demanded an appropriate response, not only in initial repentance, but in ongoing repentance. Godly living is the result, not lawlessness. Good works are not the mechanism of salvation, but the result. This paradox of a completely free salvation and a cost-everything response is difficult to communicate, but the two must be held in a tension-filled balance.
See the communication problem re completely free salvation and a cost everything response?
American individualism has distorted the gospel.
Humans are not saved because God loves them so much individually, but because God loves fallen mankind, mankind made in His image. He saves and changes individuals to reach more individuals. The ultimate focus of love is primarily corporate (cf. John 3:16), but it is received individually (cf. John 1:12; Romans 10:9-13; 1 Cor. 15:1).
"which God prepared beforehand"
This strong term (pro + hetoimos, " to prepare before") relates to the theological concept of predestination (cf. Eph. 1:4-5,11) and is used only here and in Rom. 9:23. God chose a people to reflect His character. Through Christ, the Father has restored His image in fallen mankind (cf. Gen. 1:26-27).
Here Paul gave the reason salvation is not from man or by works. Rather than salvation being a masterpiece that we have produced, regenerated believers are a masterpiece that God has produced. "Workmanship" (Gr. poieme, from which we get the word "poem"; cf. Rom_1:20) means a work of art, a masterpiece. The Jerusalem Bible translated it "work of art" here. As a master worker, God has created us in Christ Jesus. The word translated "created" here (Gr. ktizo) describes only God's activity and denotes something He alone can produce.
Good works are not the roots from which salvation grows but the fruit God intends it to bear. God has not saved us because of our works (Eph_2:8-9), but He has saved us to do good works (Eph_2:10). God saves us by faith for good works. Good works are what God intended for us to practice, with His divine enablement. He intended that we walk in them, as a pedestrian walks along a path, before He saved us (cf. Eph_1:4).
This verse reveals that God is ultimately responsible for our good works (cf. Rom_9:23; Php_2:13). Paul developed the idea of walking in good works further in chapters 4-6.
". . . God has prepared a path of good works for believers which He will perform in and through them as they walk by faith. This does not mean doing a work for God; instead, it is God's performing His work in and through believers . . ." [Note: Hoehner, "Ephesians," p. 624.]
Still difficult to comprehend?
J.
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
Johann
Well-Known Member
28 Chapters-Lol! 18,346 words.I hate getting answers like that!
"WHAT???? There are 25 Chapters in Matthew! I always stopped at Matthew 24 all these years! What a fool that I have been."
I bet they have read Matthew 25 and Revelation.
Three to go.
J.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
paul called the galation church fools. because they claimed they began in the spirit 9through grace) but then tried to perfect their salvation (keep it) by works.
Does that confuse you?
People who have true living faith are saved, and they will produce fruit.
people who have a false or fake faith may appear to do works. But their faith is dead inspite of these works. because their faith (as in the jews) was in their works. Not in the grace of God.
Johann
Well-Known Member
Right-I can discern we have a serious communication problem here-I believe my post answered all your questions but you haven't read it?
Also-now you bring in Galatians-and we are still dealing with Eph_2:10-?!
created: Eph_4:24, Psa_51:10, 2Co_5:17, Gal_6:15, Col_3:10
good: Mat_5:16, Act_9:36, 2Co_9:8, Col_1:10, 2Th_2:17, 1Ti_2:10, 1Ti_5:10, 1Ti_5:25, 1Ti_6:18, 2Ti_2:21, 2Ti_3:17, Tit_2:7, Tit_2:14, Tit_3:1, Tit_3:8, Tit_3:14, Heb_10:24, Heb_13:21, 1Pe_2:12
which: Eph_1:4, Rom_8:29
ordained: or, prepared
walk: Eph_2:2, Eph_4:1, Deu_5:33, Psa_81:13, Psa_119:3, Isa_2:3-5, Act_9:31, Rom_8:1, 1Jn_1:7, 1Jn_2:6
Reciprocal: Gen_1:27 - in the image Psa_4:3 - that the Psa_15:2 - worketh Psa_102:18 - the people Psa_119:17 - I may live Isa_26:7 - way Isa_26:12 - for Isa_35:8 - The way Isa_43:1 - created Isa_43:7 - for I Isa_45:8 - I the Lord Isa_45:11 - concerning the work Isa_64:8 - all are Eze_36:26 - new heart Eze_37:24 - they shall Hos_8:14 - Maker Mat_26:10 - a good Mar_14:6 - a good Luk_1:75 - General Luk_8:8 - other Luk_15:5 - he layeth Joh_14:20 - ye in Joh_15:16 - ordained Rom_9:23 - might Rom_14:20 - the work Rom_16:7 - were 1Co_1:30 - in Eph_1:19 - exceeding Eph_2:8 - that Eph_4:23 - be Php_1:11 - are Col_2:11 - by 1Th_1:5 - but 1Th_4:7 - God
@Titus also explained it well, so simple, so profound even a child could understand.
Now-I am NOT saying you are a teknon or a huios or a Ben brother-just a misunderstanding-hence the need for the body to come together without strife.
Shalom
J.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
I did not know I asked you any questions
You keep shoving verses in my face and asking me if I read them.
do you believe we are saved by grace through faith and that all who are saved will have works. that works have no part in us being saved or keeping saved..
or do you believe a person can be saved and lose salvation because they do not have enough works?
This is why the faith alone doctrine is false!!!
You rightly defined faith when you said
Rahab could only have true faith if she obeyed!!!!
THAT IS WHAT I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO OPEN YOUR EYES TO THE ENTIRE TIME IVE BEEN ON THIS FORUM ETERNALLY GRATEFUL
Now that you said what true Biblical faith is i.e. faith that is always obedient to God.
Examine the unbiblical definition of faith that faith onlyist use to define saving faith.
Use Rahab,
Faith only has Rahab's saving faith as without works(obedience to Gods commandments)
Therefore you have admitted by your statement below that True faith is Rahab having a faith that believes and obeys God!!! Congratulations you just condemned faith alone as a DEAD, WORTHLESS FAITH and you did not even realize it friend!
Look you said it yourself here,
Yes!!!!
You need to understand that the faith that saves is a faith that obeys!!!
No one who just believes without obedient works is justified before God.
Only Jesus will give eternal life to those whose faith moves them to obey His commandments,
Hebrews 5:8-9,
- and having been perfected, Jesus became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him
Biblical faith without works is WORTHLESS friend,
James 2:20,
- but do you want to know O foolish man that faith without works is dead(worthless)
Could Rahab been saved by a faith that was belief only and never put her belief into action?
You know the answer Eternally Grateful.
So stop trying to be saved by a dead worthless faith
Jesus' gospel plan of salvation requires a working faith that acts by obeying Gods commandments.
Repentance is a act or work of faith,
Confession that Jesus is God is an act/work of faith
Baptism into Christ is faith in action!!!
No one does these things without their faith moving them to obey.
Dont think of works and faith as two opposite things.
True Biblical faith is never alone that is never is without acting on your beliefs
Before salvation faith must be a working obedient faith never belief that has no action.
After salvation true faith is always accompanied with our works.
Every single person in the Bible that was said to be men and women of faith always had a faith that obeyed God.
Read all of Hebrews chapter 11 as proof of what true saving faith is.
Faith without works = dead
Faith that works through love= living saving faith
atpollard
Well-Known Member
John 3:16 [with context]
- [John 3:14-21 ESV] "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God."
John 1:12 [with context]
- [John 1:9-14 ESV] "The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth."
Romans 10:9-13 [with context]
- [Rom 10:8-13 ESV] But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, "Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame." For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
1 Corinthians 15:1 [with context]
- [1 Corinthians 15:1-11 ESV] Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you--unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me. For I am the least of the apostles, unworthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me. Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.
I do not see the "primarily corporate" love in any of this. "For God so loves the world" in John 3:16 does not abrogate the message of the verses that surround it [God loved "whoever believes" as a cherished individual] ... collectively forming a great multitude of His children that no man can count from every nation, tribe and tongue [the whole world].
Johann
Well-Known Member
Brother-we are saved by grace-
Eph_2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Eph_2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
I get blasted for posting relatively "long" posts-of the which you haven't read -and now you are blasting me for quoting verses and asked you IF you read them.
If you didn't asked me a question-then there is no need to answer, now is there?
Shalom
These verses are pretty self explanatory-
J.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Luke 18:9-14 [ESV]
Ephesians 2:8-10 [ESV]
- He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: "Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.' But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, a sinner!' I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted."
What work did the Tax Collector do to "prove" his faith and earn his righteousness?
Ephesians 2:8-10 [ESV]
- 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
- 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
It is not for nothing that we are saved in verses 8-9, and only then do the works come in verse 10.
1st of all, it's a parable nor does it mean he was saved. Jesus was alive. The requirement for baptism as part of the salvation process didn't come into being until after his death at which point the new testament began.
Spirit baptism (not sure what you mean by that term) doesn't replace water baptism. In fact, you receive the gift of the Holy Ghost/Spirit upon being baptized. It's at the point of baptism that your sins are forgiven, you receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, and are added to the body of Christ.
Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 2:47
And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
Johann
Well-Known Member
Did I say or quote anything contradictory? I don't think so and I stand by --
"for good works" Believers' lifestyles after they meet Christ are an evidence of their salvation (cf. James and 1 John). They are saved by grace through faith unto works! They are saved to serve! Faith without works is dead, as are works without faith (cf. Matt. 7:21-23 and James 2:14-26). Salvation is a gate and a way/road. The goal of the Father's choice is that believers be "holy and blameless" (cf. Eph. 1:4).
Paul was often attacked for his radically free gospel because it seemed to encourage godless living. A gospel so seemingly unconnected to moral performance must lead to abuse. Paul's gospel was free in the grace of God, but it also demanded an appropriate response, not only in initial repentance, but in ongoing repentance. Godly living is the result, not lawlessness. Good works are not the mechanism of salvation, but the result. This paradox of a completely free salvation and a cost-everything response is difficult to communicate, but the two must be held in a tension-filled balance.
American individualism has distorted the gospel.
Humans are not saved because God loves them so much individually, but because God loves fallen mankind, mankind made in His image. He saves and changes individuals to reach more individuals. The ultimate focus of love is primarily corporate (cf. John 3:16), but it is received individually (cf. John 1:12; Romans 10:9-13; 1 Cor. 15:1).
There is nothing wrong with primarily corporate BUT received INDIVIDUALLY brother.
J.
Similar threads
