Do you believe Spirit baptism replaces water baptism?

[Ferris Bueller]

This is where we disagree. Abraham was justified by works when he offered Isaac upon the altar.

He was. But not in the matter of having righteousness imputed to him, but in the matter of being shown to have that imputation of righteousness. 'Justified' means, both, to be made righteous and to be shown to be righteous. A genuine faith will, both, make a person righteous, and produce works that show them to have that righteousness. And so a man is justified by, both, faith, and works, just as James says (James 2:24).

Abraham was credited the righteousness of God when he had faith in the promise given him in Genesis 15:6. He was shown to have that faith by what he did in the offering of Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22:9, at which time the evidence of the righteousness he received earlier by faith in God's promise was revealed:

"12“Do not lay a hand on the boy or do anything to him,” said the angel, “for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your only son from me.”" Genesis 22:12
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And this is the very point that James is addressing in his discourse. He even says that:

"Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds." James 2:18​

 

[ScottA]

I believe Ephesians 4:5 is referring to the one baptism we need to be concerned with because it is our responsibility to partake of, and to do so upon others (if God grants us such opportunities) (Which is a part of the faith). Spirit baptism is something GOD does upon all believers when we first are saved by Jesus Christ (See: 1 Corinthians 12:13).

It sounds like you believe there are two (2) baptisms then, rather than only "one baptism" as the scriptures say.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

He was. But not in the matter of having righteousness imputed to him, but in the matter of being shown to have that imputation of righteousness. 'Justified' means, both, to be made righteous and to be shown to be righteous. A genuine faith will, both, make a person righteous, and produce works that show them to have that righteousness. And so a man is justified by, both, faith, and works, just as James says (James 2:24).

Abraham was credited the righteousness of God when he had faith in the promise given him in Genesis 15:6. He was shown to have that faith by what he did in the offering of Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22:9, at which time the evidence of the righteousness he received earlier by faith in God's promise was revealed:

"12“Do not lay a hand on the boy or do anything to him,” said the angel, “for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your only son from me.”" Genesis 22:12
​

And this is the very point that James is addressing in his discourse. He even says that:

"Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds." James 2:18​

Again, I disagree. 1 John 1:7 is the proof of another version of imputed righteousness that you don't like. Read it more carefully. 1 John 2:9-11 is defining walking in the light as loving our brother. So you have to love your brother for the blood of Jesus to also cleanse you from all sin and not just believing in Jesus and His blood for salvation (Romans 3:25).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It sounds like you believe there are two (2) baptisms then, rather than only "one baptism" as the scriptures say.

The context of Ephesians 4:5 if you were to reread it again more closely is focused on what we are to do and not on what God does.
So it's not a contradiction within the framework of the context. The verse is not making an absolute statement. If it did, then there would be a contradiction in Scripture and that's simply not possible.

Anyways, so then you believe there is no Spirit baptism of any kind? That would be extremely odd and unsettling to hold to such a view and it would be a bold denial of certain verses in Scripture.

 

[ScottA]

The context of Ephesians 4:5 if you were to reread it again more closely is focused on what we are to do and not on what God does.
So it's not a contradiction within the framework of the context. The verse is not making an absolute statement. If it did, then there would be a contradiction in Scripture and that's simply not possible.

Anyways, so then you believe there is no Spirit baptism of any kind? That would be extremely odd and unsettling to hold to such a view and it would be a bold denial of certain verses in Scripture.

I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which you were called, 2 with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love, 3 endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. Ephesians 4:1-6
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No, but rather I know there to be but one baptism that is by the Spirit, and one practice with water that only points to it (in which there is no contradiction).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which you were called, 2 with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love, 3 endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. Ephesians 4:1-6
​

No, but rather I know there to be but one baptism that is by the Spirit, and one practice with water that only points to it (in which there is no contradiction).

The thing is that Ephesians 4:5 has to be talking about one or the other and not both.
Why? Well, because men have been Spirit baptized before being water baptized.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Again, I disagree. 1 John 1:7 is the proof of another version of imputed righteousness that you don't like. Read it more carefully. 1 John 2:9-11 is defining walking in the light as loving our brother.

...But not for the purpose of being re-justified in salvation. When a justified/sanctified person sins they don't need a bath all over again for salvation. They just need to wash their feet/ They just need to clean up their walk:

"10Jesus told him, “Whoever has already bathed needs only to wash his feet, and he will be completely clean." John 13:10
​

A believer does not get saved over and over and over again. As we can see above, that's not necessary. Besides, that's not allowed anyway (Hebrews 6:4-6).

 

[Ferris Bueller]

because men have been Spirit baptized before being water baptized.

And vice versa.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

...But not for the purpose of being re-justified in salvation. When a justified/sanctified person sins they don't need a bath all over again for salvation. They just need to wash their feet/ They just need to clean up their walk:

"10Jesus told him, “Whoever has already bathed needs only to wash his feet, and he will be completely clean." John 13:10
​

A believer does not get saved over and over and over again. As we can see above, that's not necessary. Besides, that's not allowed anyway (Hebrews 6:4-6).

It's not about being saved again, but it's about maintaining our salvation and continuing in the faith.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

...But not for the purpose of being re-justified in salvation. When a justified/sanctified person sins they don't need a bath all over again for salvation. They just need to wash their feet/ They just need to clean up their walk:

"10Jesus told him, “Whoever has already bathed needs only to wash his feet, and he will be completely clean." John 13:10​

​

A believer does not get saved over and over and over again. As we can see above, that's not necessary. Besides, that's not allowed anyway (Hebrews 6:4-6).

Update:

I had to remove these videos from Alan Ballou (that I posted before).

While I liked Alan Ballou’s videos before on Sanctification and putting away sin and they were really helpful, the problem is he is a false accuser of the brethren. In the YouTube comment section in this video here, Alan Ballou falsely accused me of several things that I are not actually true. I said that while I agreed with his viewpoint on how there are two aspects of salvation, I told him that I disagree with his view on “obeying the gospel.” I told him “obeying the gospel“ is defined for us in Romans 10 in that it is believing the gospel message. He also implied there was no free will when we come to the Lord (Which is Calvinism), and he used John 6 as an example. I explained to him why this is not Calvinism and instead of disagreeing in love and respect, he started to falsely accuse me (as if I had teachers, and I went to bible college - when that is not the case). I tried to tell him in love that he was falsely accusing me here, and he never replied back. You can see the conversation under the same username I use here (Bible Highlighter) with there being 16 replies to my comment to him. I refuse to watch somebody who falsely accuses other Christians

 

[Ferris Bueller]

It's not about being saved again, but it's about maintaining our salvation and continuing in the faith.

Being justified over and over and over again maintains salvation???
I just showed you, you don't have to start all over again every time you sin.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Being justified over and over and over again maintains salvation???
I just showed you, you don't have to start all over again every time you sin.

No. It's a continuous justification by faith. One faith that manifests itself as starting off as a belief alone in Jesus to be saved, and then that same faith continues to manifests itself as doing the work of faith (Just like Noah - See: Hebrews 11:7 again). We are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24). Yet, we are not justified by works alone (without God's grace, either). It's neither one extreme or the other.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Being justified over and over and over again maintains salvation???
I just showed you, you don't have to start all over again every time you sin.

As for sinning: Whatever is not of faith is sin. Sin is not a part of the faith. God does not want us to ever sin. That's not his will for our lives. Nor does God want to think we must sin or we will sin (Because God cannot agree with sin).

The faith...(Which is the Bible and not your thinking) teaches that if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins (1 John 1:9). Forgiveness of sins is dealing with salvation. He that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy (Proverbs 28:13). This is the proper way to deal with sin. If not.. you have made your own path or way.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins (1 John 1:9). Forgiveness of sins is dealing with salvation.

Not for the believer.
The ONLY sin that hits directly at your salvation is the sin of UNBELIEF.
For the believer every time they sin the blood of Christ they believe in instantly atones for that sin. The blood is constantly on the altar in heaven doing that for the believer. Their sin is a matter of their behavior, NOT THEIR SALVATION.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

As for sinning: Whatever is not of faith is sin.

Read the passage.
He's not talking about not having faith in Jesus for salvation.
He's talking about the person who's conscience won't let him partake of something. And so if he does partake he is not being faithful to his own conviction, and so for him he is sinning. He's not being faithless and unbelieving about salvation!

 

[Ferris Bueller]

It's a continuous justification by faith.

No, not in regard to the imputation of God's righteousness. That's a one time event that does not need repeating:

"12...this Priest (Jesus) had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, He sat down at the right hand of God. 13Since that time, He waits for His enemies to be made a footstool for His feet, 14because by a single offering He has made perfect for all time those who are being sanctified." Hebrews 10:12-14​

But the justification that is ongoing is when you are justified by your works, for you are continually doing works that show you have the imputation of God's righteousness. You will continue to be justified that way, over and over and over again until the day you die. That has nothing to do with, or has any effect on, the imputation of God's righteousness you received one-time, for all time when you first believed. That remains despite your sinning. Only the matter of continuing to believe in Christ's forgiveness can touch that. And that's assuming the truly born again person can stop believing. But that's a debate I find meaningless so I rarely indulge it.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No, not in regard to the imputation of God's righteousness. That's a one time event that does not need repeating:

"12...this Priest (Jesus) had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, He sat down at the right hand of God. 13Since that time, He waits for His enemies to be made a footstool for His feet, 14because by a single offering He has made perfect for all time those who are being sanctified." Hebrews 10:12-14​

But the justification that is ongoing is when you are justified by your works, for you are continually doing works that show you have the imputation of God's righteousness. You will continue to be justified that way, over and over and over again until the day you die. That has nothing to do with, or has any effect on, the imputation of God's righteousness you received one-time, for all time when you first believed. That remains despite your sinning. Only the matter of continuing to believe in Christ's forgiveness can touch that. And that's assuming the truly born again person can stop believing. But that's a debate I find meaningless so I rarely indulge it.

Verse 12 is talking about the Provisional Atonement. For when Jesus offered Himself as one sacrifice for sins for all and sat down at the right hand of God does not mean everyone is saved (Unless you are a Universalist).

Verse 14 is referring to present tense Sanctification in living holy, i.e. “being sanctified” (Modern Translations) or “them that are sanctified” (KJB) (Which is looking at things from a future perspective (looking back); Meaning it is in reference to those saints who have successfully went through the Sanctification Process in living holy and until the end of their faith). Meaning, they had to have lived holy in this life to be forever perfected by Jesus. This again ties into the blood of Jesus cleansing us from all sin in 1 John 1:7 by walking in the light.

Besides, if you were to skip down to verse 26, it says this:

Hebrews 10:26
“For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,”

So your idea that sin is forever taken away is merely an illusion or fiction.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Read the passage.
He's not talking about not having faith in Jesus for salvation.

That's a misconnect. All things in your Bible is in regards to the faith.
Every word and every story, and every doctrine, and every truth, and every instruction by God in the New Testament is a part of the faith.
You have to believe all of it by faith. If not, that is unbelief in what God's Word says.
Not believing the Bible (the faith) is sin. For faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17).

He's talking about the person who's conscience won't let him partake of something. And so if he does partake he is not being faithful to his own conviction, and so for him he is sinning. He's not being faithless and unbelieving about salvation!

Romans 14:23 NLT
“But if you have doubts about whether or not you should eat something, you are sinning if you go ahead and do it. For you are not following your convictions. If you do anything you believe is not right, you are sinning.”

Romans 14:23 GNT
“But if they have doubts about what they eat, God condemns them when they eat it, because their action is not based on faith. And anything that is not based on faith is sin.”

It's says they are in sin.

When a believers sins, they need forgiveness (salvation). For the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23). For if we willfully sin after we receive the knowledge of the truth there remains no more sacrifice for sin (Hebrews 10:26). Therefore, they must confess and forsake those sins (1 John 1:9) (1 John 1:7) (Proverbs 28:13) to be restored.

God's grace is not a license for immorality.

Jude 1:4
“For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.”

For God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins (1 John 1:9). Forgiveness of sins is dealing with salvation.

Not for the believer.
The ONLY sin that hits directly at your salvation is the sin of UNBELIEF.

Ah, yes. The classic Free Will Baptist belief. Notice that there is no actual Bible verse that says this, though.
This is just what they teach, and not the Bible.
The Bible teaches that repentance is necessary for salvation.
For Jesus says, “I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.” (Luke 13:3) (NKJV).

A Biblical Case For Repentance

At the heart, I believe the Bible teaches that "Repentance" means, "Asking God for forgiveness" or the Sinner’s Prayer (Which of course naturally then leads to the "fruits of repentance", i.e. obedience to the Lord):

Important Note: While I may believe "Repentance" does involve to a certain degree a "change of mind" (like a person changing their mind about their old life of sin), I do not think "Repentance" exclusively means a “change of mind.”

"Asking God for forgiveness of sin" can either refer to: The "Sinner's Prayer" (Initial Salvation) (Romans 10:13), and or the seasoned believer "Confessing one's sin" (Continued Salvation) (See 1 John 1:9, 1 John 2:1).


Anyways, here are my ten points using Scripture showing that "repentance" means "asking God for forgiveness of sin.”

#1. Acts 2:38
The New Living Translation says in Acts 2:38 to "repent of your sins."
Douay Reheims says in Acts 2:38 to "Do penance."
New Life Version says in Acts 2:38 to "Be sorry for your sins"

#2. Luke 17:3 says, "Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him." This doesn't make any sense if "repent" means believe in Jesus (as some teach) or to have a change of mind about sin (as others teach) or to exclusively forsake sin. Yes, we are to forsake sin as a part of repentance but that comes later after repentance (Which is to ask God for forgiveness of our sin). For how can we reconcile with a brother if we do not say we are sorry vs. just going on about life as if we did nothing wrong?

#3. Jesus said in Matthew 12:41 that the Ninevites will rise up in Judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah. If you were to turn to Jonah chapter 3, you would be able to see in Jonah 3:6-10 that the King of the Ninevites had told his people to:

(a) Cry out to God (i.e. Repentance) (See Jonah 3:8).
(b) Turn from their sins or evil ways (i.e. The Natural Fruits of Repentance).

#4. Matthew 3:6 (which then lines up with Matthew 3:8). Also, in Mark 1:4-5, it says John preached the "baptism of repentance" for the remission of sins (verse 4), and it then defines this "baptism of repentance" by saying they confessed their sins when they were baptized (verse 5).

#5. We see in Acts of the Apostles 8:22 a clear example of Peter telling Simon to "repent" of his wickedness in trying to pay for the Holy Spirit. Peter is telling Simon to make a prayer towards God. For Peter says that he should pray that God might forgive him. In other words, Peter is telling Simon to repent of a one time event of wickedness by way of prayer to GOD. This only makes sense if "repent" means to "ask for forgiveness."

#6. Ezekiel 14:6 says,
"Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols;" Repent makes the most sense here if a person is asking God for forgiveness by way of prayer instead of a person just believing in God. Naturally a person believes in God as their Savior if they are planning on forsaking their idols.

#7. We see repentance is the topic of discussion in Luke 15 (Luke 15:6) (Luke 15:10); This is then followed up by the "Parable of the Prodigal Son" with the son desiring to be reconciled with his father. We learn the WAY the Prodigal Son desired to be reconciled with his father when he said,

"I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee, And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants." (Luke 15:18-19).

In other words, the Prodigal Son was seeking forgiveness. This ties into the point of repentance in Luke 15:6 and Luke 15:10.

#8. Luke 10:13 says,
"Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes." This rules out the theory that repentance is exclusively forsaking sin. Granted, forsaking sin always follows true repentance (Asking God for forgiveness of one's sins) but forsaking sin is not repentance. The word "repented" here is describing a one time event because they "repented", sitting in sackcloth and ashes. In Jonah 3:6 we learn that the King of Nineveh sat in sackcloth and ashes. In Jonah 3:8, the King of Nineveh tells people to put on sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God (i.e. repentance): and then turn from their evil way (i.e. the fruits of repentance).

#9. John the Baptist says we are to bring forth fruits worthy of repentance (Luke 3:8). Fruits are deeds (or obedience to God). How can repentance be the same thing as the fruit? Is the fruit the same thing as the tree?

#10. Jeremiah 8:6 says, "I hearkened and heard, but they spake not aright: no man repented him of his wickedness, saying, What have I done? every one turned to his course, as the horse rusheth into the battle." Here we see the word "repented of wickedness" tied with the words, "What have I done?" This is an acknowledgement of one's sin to God as a part of asking His forgiveness.


Notable Additional Verses that Deal with Repentance
(But They Do Not Use The Word "Repent" or "Repentance"):

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Romans 10:13).

13 "And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. (Luke 18:13-14).

Proverbs 28:13 says whosoever confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy.

For the believer every time they sin the blood of Christ they believe in instantly atones for that sin. The blood is constantly on the altar in heaven doing that for the believer. Their sin is a matter of their behavior, NOT THEIR SALVATION.

That's purely imaginary. That would be turning God's grace into a license to sin (Jude 1:4).
That's not how things work. Sorry.

 

[Bible Highlighter]