Do you believe this statement: "Jesus is YHWH", Yes or No?

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Do you believe and agree with the following statement: "Jesus is YHWH." Yes or No?


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dak

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You should consider starting a simple poll asking “Is there more than one YHWH?”

Now that this poll is over I think we may actually already have incidentally done such a poll within this one. The preaching of the many herein, those among the professed Trinitarians, lays out for us what they claim by their own arguments and opinions. All that needs to be done is to take those arguments and opinions, their own words, and apply them to the Trinity Shield imagery.

This appears to be what they have argued when applied to the Trinity Shield:

trinityshield-2.png

How many "YHWHs" do you see?
I count four but only three of them are "persons".
 
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Matthias

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Now that this poll is over I think we may actually already have incidentally done such a poll within this one. The preaching of the many herein, those among the professed Trinitarians, lays out for us what they claim by their own arguments and opinions. All that needs to be done is to take those arguments and opinions, their own words, and apply them to the Trinity Shield imagery.

This appears to be what they have argued when applied to the Trinity Shield:

View attachment 75447

How many "YHWHs" do you see?
I count four but only three of them are "persons".
Or maybe there are seven because the one in the middle is divided into three?

In trinitarian theology the Shield of Faith represents only one Yahweh. That’s what a professional trinitarian scholar would say.

It’s not unusual to hear an average trinitarian say there is more than one Yahweh. (I encountered that assertion on the forum recently.)

What I see in the Shield of Faith is anti-Jewish monotheism.
 
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dak

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In trinitarian theology the Shield of Faith represents only one Yahweh. That’s what a professional trinitarian scholar would say.

It’s not unusual to hear an average trinitarian say there is more than one Yahweh. (I encountered that assertion on the forum recently.)

What I see in the Shield of Faith is anti-Jewish monotheism.

In Jewish monotheism neither the Living YHWH nor Father would even appear on the drawing because He is the only true El, omnipresent, beyond the heavens and the heaven of the heavens, non-corporeal, non-anthropomorphic, unbegotten, without beginning or end, Eternal Living Spirit.
 

David in NJ

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Sorry but neither statement is true.

1) YHWH is the Father and Trinitarianism does not teach that "Jesus is the Father", in fact, the exact opposite, and it is written on the Trinity Shield.
2) The Shema absolutely does not say "they are one".
3) The name of the Father absolutely is the Tetragrammaton, according to HE HIMSELF, (Exodus 6:3, "And I appeared to Abraham, to Yitzhak, and to Yaakob as El Shaddai: but by My name, YHWH, I was not known to them").

The FATHER has permanently ascribed to His SON = His OWN Name = Like FATHER Like SON

I have manifested Your Name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. - John 17:6
 

Hazelelponi

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How many "YHWHs" do you see?
I count four but only three of them are "persons".

Scripture teaches that God in His essence is invisible, and that the Father is revealed through the eternal Son, who is the image of the invisible God (John 1:18; Col 1:15).,
 
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Hazelelponi

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In Jewish monotheism neither the Living YHWH nor Father would even appear on the drawing because He is the only true El, omnipresent, beyond the heavens and the heaven of the heavens, non-corporeal, non-anthropomorphic, unbegotten, without beginning or end, Eternal Living Spirit.

Second Temple Judaism already held a complex monotheism in which YHWH was enthroned in heaven, yet could also be manifested visibly and share His authority without ceasing to be one God. Texts like Psalm 110 and Daniel 7 distinguish between YHWH and a second figure who nevertheless receives divine authority, worship, and rule.

The Angel of YHWH bears the divine Name (Exod 23:21), forgives sins, and is identified as God, while the Glory and the Word (Memra, Aramaic) function as YHWH’s own self-manifestation.

These patterns gave rise to what later rabbis called the “Two Powers in Heaven,” a belief only condemned after Christianity because Jesus was identified as that second divine figure. The Jews knew exactly what Jesus was saying, it's why they wanted him killed for blasphemy

The New Testament does not invent a new God; it identifies Jesus within the already-existing identity of YHWH.
 

dak

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The FATHER has permanently ascribed to His SON = His OWN Name = Like FATHER Like SON

I have manifested Your Name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. - John 17:6

One word that has been stated at least twice now: AGENCY.
But apparently Trinitarians find that they must ignore the principle for some reason.

Deuteronomy 18:17-19 RNKJV
18:17 And YHWH said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
18:19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

Peter affirms the above, quoting from it in Acts 3:22-23, and applies it to the Meshiah.

And again, this is my little Creed from the Gospel of John, and following below the Creed, concerning what the following bold, plain, emphatic statements from the Meshiah himself compel me to logically conclude by simply believing every word.

John 5:22
22 for the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment unto the Son:

John 8:15
15 You judge after the flesh: I judge no one.

John 8:50
50 And I seek not mine own glory: there is One who seeks out and judges.

John 12:47-50
47 And if anyone hears my words, (rhema), and believes not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
48 The one rejecting me, and receiving not my words, (rhema), has One that judges him: the Logos that I have spoken, that One* (He) shall judge him in the last day.
49 For I have not spoken of myself: but the Father who sent me, He gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
50 And I know that His commandment is life eternal: whatsoever therefore I speak, even as the Father has said unto me, so I speak.

* "that One" = G1565 εκεινος ~ literally that one or that thing, which some minimize by rendering it here as he, (while others even go so far as to omit this word entirely for rather obvious reasons). The basic flow of the logic in the above emphatic statements of the Meshiah is easy to see and understand: the only thing to blind the eyes is preconceived dogma and an unwillingness to believe the Testimony of the Meshiah, which was not eve his own but given to him from the Father, (YHWH).

The Father judges no one, (John 5:22).
The Father has committed all judgement unto the Son, (John 5:22).
The Meshiah himself, (the Christos, or Anointed One), judges no one, (John 8:15, John 8:50, John 12:47).
The Logos which the Meshiah has spoken: that One alone is the Judge, (John 12:48).

Therefore:

The Father is not the Judge, (John 5:22).
The Son is the only Judge, (John 5:22).
The Meshiah himself says that he is not the Judge, (John 8:15, John 8:50, John 12:47)
The Logos spoken through the Meshiah which the Father gave to him is the only Judge, (John 12:48-50).
The Meshiah or Christos, (Anointed One), is not the eternal Logos Son who is the Word of the Father.

For those who refuse to hear the Testimony and teachings of the Meshiah: it shall be required, (Deu 18:19 quoted above), which according to the quote in Acts 3:23 means utter destruction.
 

David in NJ

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One word that has been stated at least twice now: AGENCY.
But apparently Trinitarians find that they must ignore the principle for some reason.

Deuteronomy 18:17-19 RNKJV
18:17 And YHWH said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
18:19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

Peter affirms the above, quoting from it in Acts 3:22-23, and applies it to the Meshiah.

And again, this is my little Creed from the Gospel of John, and following below the Creed, concerning what the following bold, plain, emphatic statements from the Meshiah himself compel me to logically conclude by simply believing every word.

John 5:22
22 for the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment unto the Son:

John 8:15
15 You judge after the flesh: I judge no one.

John 8:50
50 And I seek not mine own glory: there is One who seeks out and judges.

John 12:47-50
47 And if anyone hears my words, (rhema), and believes not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
48 The one rejecting me, and receiving not my words, (rhema), has One that judges him: the Logos that I have spoken, that One* (He) shall judge him in the last day.
49 For I have not spoken of myself: but the Father who sent me, He gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
50 And I know that His commandment is life eternal: whatsoever therefore I speak, even as the Father has said unto me, so I speak.

* "that One" = G1565 εκεινος ~ literally that one or that thing, which some minimize by rendering it here as he, (while others even go so far as to omit this word entirely for rather obvious reasons). The basic flow of the logic in the above emphatic statements of the Meshiah is easy to see and understand: the only thing to blind the eyes is preconceived dogma and an unwillingness to believe the Testimony of the Meshiah, which was not eve his own but given to him from the Father, (YHWH).

The Father judges no one, (John 5:22).
The Father has committed all judgement unto the Son, (John 5:22).
The Meshiah himself, (the Christos, or Anointed One), judges no one, (John 8:15, John 8:50, John 12:47).
The Logos which the Meshiah has spoken: that One alone is the Judge, (John 12:48).

Therefore:

The Father is not the Judge, (John 5:22).
The Son is the only Judge, (John 5:22).
The Meshiah himself says that he is not the Judge, (John 8:15, John 8:50, John 12:47)
The Logos spoken through the Meshiah which the Father gave to him is the only Judge, (John 12:48-50).
The Meshiah or Christos, (Anointed One), is not the eternal Logos Son who is the Word of the Father.

For those who refuse to hear the Testimony and teachings of the Meshiah: it shall be required, (Deu 18:19 quoted above), which according to the quote in Acts 3:23 means utter destruction.
BIG Difference between the OT prophets and THE PROPHET who Eternally Bears the Name of His FATHER

Why does Genesis chapter 1 begin with the first Definition of Elohim being PLURAL = if Elohim is not plural???

Have you never read: "It is IMPOSSIBLE for God to lie" - Hebrews 6:18

Have you ever read: "Go dis not the author of confusion" - 1 Corinthians 14:33

Have you never read that the angels worship/sing: HOLY HOLY HOLY = 3 Times = Isaiah 6:3 and Revelation 4:8

SHALOM
 

dak

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Scripture teaches that God in His essence is invisible, and that the Father is revealed through the eternal Son, who is the image of the invisible God (John 1:18; Col 1:15).,

Agreed, up to the point where you left off, but the Eternal Son is the Word-Memra-Logos of the Father who is ever in the bosom of the Father, and therefore he is not a man, and therefore not the Meshiah or Christos. He is the very Anointing whom the Father placed upon the Meshiah-Anointed One at his immersion. You've turned the Eternal Son into a God-Man and thereby took that property away from the one and only one-of-a-kind Eternal Son and gave it all to Jesus instead.
 

dak

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BIG Difference between the OT prophets and THE PROPHET who Eternally Bears the Name of His FATHER

Why does Genesis chapter 1 begin with the first Definition of Elohim being PLURAL = if Elohim is not plural???

Have you never read: "It is IMPOSSIBLE for God to lie" - Hebrews 6:18

Have you ever read: "Go dis not the author of confusion" - 1 Corinthians 14:33

Have you never read that the angels worship/sing: HOLY HOLY HOLY = 3 Times = Isaiah 6:3 and Revelation 4:8

SHALOM

No need to squirm, as I just showed you, I am certainly not the Judge: it is him you need to worry about, and I strongly suggest that you pray and study out my previous response to you on your own for your own benefit. My little creed is all scripture, even bold, emphatic, clear-as-day statements from the Meshiah himself. There is not going to be any getting around those statements: and those words of the Master shall not pass away.
 

David in NJ

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No need to squirm, as I just showed you, I am certainly not the Judge: it is him you need to worry about, and I strongly suggest that you pray and study out my previous response to you on your own for your own benefit. My little creed is all scripture, even bold, emphatic, clear-as-day statements from the Meshiah himself. There is not going to be any getting around those statements: and those words of the Master shall not pass away.
you guys never quit - but it makes for good lol

If you do not believe ELOHIM/Plural at His Word = you will come to a erroneous creed

Learn to Count to THREE = "I am the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE"

3 is the Signature of ELOHIM = and no man, in his intellectual unbelief, will ever change that
 

David in NJ

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Now that this poll is over I think we may actually already have incidentally done such a poll within this one. The preaching of the many herein, those among the professed Trinitarians, lays out for us what they claim by their own arguments and opinions. All that needs to be done is to take those arguments and opinions, their own words, and apply them to the Trinity Shield imagery.

This appears to be what they have argued when applied to the Trinity Shield:

View attachment 75447

How many "YHWHs" do you see?
I count four but only three of them are "persons".
oh boy = the intellect of man
 

dak

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Second Temple Judaism already held a complex monotheism in which YHWH was enthroned in heaven, yet could also be manifested visibly and share His authority without ceasing to be one God. Texts like Psalm 110 and Daniel 7 distinguish between YHWH and a second figure who nevertheless receives divine authority, worship, and rule.

The Angel of YHWH bears the divine Name (Exod 23:21), forgives sins, and is identified as God, while the Glory and the Word (Memra, Aramaic) function as YHWH’s own self-manifestation.

These patterns gave rise to what later rabbis called the “Two Powers in Heaven,” a belief only condemned after Christianity because Jesus was identified as that second divine figure. The Jews knew exactly what Jesus was saying, it's why they wanted him killed for blasphemy

The New Testament does not invent a new God; it identifies Jesus within the already-existing identity of YHWH.

Yes, I agree for the most part, but please understand that in that response I was speaking to a Jewish monotheist believer in Meshiah. Thus believer is the key and what I meant when I responded to him. Ask him and he will no doubt confirm to you that he believes not only John but all the apostles were believing Jewish monotheists, which I myself also affirm, and which is why I brought up Memra in the first place with you in a previous post.

Moreover they say Memra is Aramaic, and that part is true: however no one seems to notice that the Masoretes wrongly pointed the name Mamre in the Torah, (Genesis), and you have already revealed the most likely and blatant reason for doing so. Mamre is Memra, the Word, which is a Hebrew word, not just Aramaic. If you are willing to see this the background scenery comes into view: the oaks of Mamre are the Mighty Ones of Memra, Abraham dwelt with-among the Mighty Ones of Memra just as Henok and Noah walked with the Elohim, (the Seven Malakim-Elohim-Angels).
 

dak

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you guys never quit - but it makes for good lol

If you do not believe ELOHIM/Plural at His Word = you will come to a erroneous creed

Learn to Count to THREE = "I am the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE"

3 is the Signature of ELOHIM = and no man, in his intellectual unbelief, will ever change that

You should already know that I am not the type to form doctrine based on numerology.
 

rvmb

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You should already know that I am not the type to form doctrine based on numerology.
Though not numerology, how fascinating is this ? :)
Maths Pi RATIO in Gen 1:1
Maths e RATIO in John 1:1

1765671256034.png
1765671276592.png
 

David in NJ

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You should already know that I am not the type to form doctrine based on numerology.
Abba FATHER Says you should believe My WORD, for if you do, the HOLY SPIRIT will be your Guide

Eternal Doctrine
from Above Says: without THREE no one can be Saved = Genesis/Gospel/Revelation
 

dak

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Though not numerology, how fascinating is this ? :)
Maths Pi RATIO in Gen 1:1
Maths e RATIO in John 1:1

View attachment 75460
View attachment 75461

Hmmm... the first one is interesting. However the second, in the earliest Greek Uncial texts, contains the nomen sacrum for Theon/Theos instead of full plene spellings.

John 1:1
1 εν αρχη ην ο λογος και ο λογος ην προς τον Θ̅Ν και Θ̅C ην ο λογος
 

Prycejosh1987

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Jesus is the King of the Jews in a divine sense. God is the first King of Israel.
 

David in NJ

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Jesus is the King of the Jews in a divine sense. God is the first King of Israel.
You almost got it right.

But the LORD is the true Elohim; he is the living Elohim and the everlasting King.
At his wrath the earth quakes, and the nations cannot endure his indignation. - Jeremiah 10:10

Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He [e]had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

KING OF KINGS AND
LORD OF LORDS.
 

rvmb

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Hmmm... the first one is interesting. However the second, in the earliest Greek Uncial texts, contains the nomen sacrum for Theon/Theos instead of full plene spellings.

John 1:1
1 εν αρχη ην ο λογος και ο λογος ην προς τον Θ̅Ν και Θ̅C ην ο λογος
Think of it this way :-
Does the Mathematical coding embedded into the text show the correct version ? :)