Doctrinal Clarity or vagueness?

[stunnedbygrace]

I was commending you for that approach. I asked you where you got the idea, apart from him. You had no answer to that other than to say I'd need to ask him.

Yes, because I wasn’t answering your real question, I saw, right before I was about to hit post, so I added to it, and there I did answer your question.

So…are you saying…unless I hear the same understanding by many, many men, it has to be untrue? Because I would actually reckon about the opposite of that.

 

[Mr E]

Epi was here a moment ago and then left without saying anything. Either he’s busy or…do you think he’s waiting for us to come to something in particular until he speaks…?

I shared some doctrines I find vague and sort of like…because I said so, that’s why!
Anybody else find some are a bit vague anywhere?

He knows he doesn't know what he's talking about.

 

[Mr E]

Yes, because I wasn’t answering your real question, I saw, right before I was about to hit post, so I added to it, and there I did answer your question.

Great! What "scripture" informed you that half of the ten virgins had less information than the other half?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

He knows he doesn't know what he's talking about.

Well, once again, not helpful. You want anyone to listen to you? Explain. Teach. Expound. Share what the Spirit has illuminated for you. You are supposed to be sharing for our building up and then others speak about what they’ve been given to add, to build.
Ive really only seen you tear down. I mean, you did at one point say, read this verse, then that verse, then if you have any questions, ask, but don’t ask him.
You had no real explanation for the parable, you just knew he couldn’t be right, he couldn’t be speaking with any wisdom.
You go about it wrong. I know, I know, that’s how most men act in here, but that’s why we were earlier asking, where is the God of Paul and why are we so weak and lacking in power if our teachers have led us right??? Read that question again. If we have been taught well, where is the God of Paul? Where??!

 

[Mr E]

Well, once again, not helpful. You want anyone to listen to you? Explain. Teach. Expound. Share what the Spirit has illuminated for you. You are supposed to be sharing for our building up and then others speak about what they’ve been given to add, to build.
Ive really only seen you tear down. I mean, you did at one point say, read this verse, then that verse, then if you have any questions, ask, but don’t ask him.
You had no real explanation for the parable, you just knew he couldn’t be right, he couldn’t be speaking with any wisdom.
You go about it wrong. I know, I know, that’s how most men act in here, but that’s why we were earlier asking, where is the God of Paul and why are we so weak and lacking in power if our teachers have led us right??? Read that question again. If we have been taught well, where is the God of Paul? Where??!

I asked you if you 'searched the scriptures for understanding' -- you said that's what you do. Did you?

Did you read those passages I pointed you to?

 

[Cassandra]

I heard it was this way.

They were brides--so they were all members of the church, but church membership does not guarantee salvation.
The lamps they carried were the Word of God.
Ps 119:105 "Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path."

The oil, of course is the Holy Spirit.
.

Both groups are asleep. (Are we sleeping?)
But at midnight There was a cry that the Bridegroom was coming
Those who had a relationship with Jesus and were grounded in the Word were allowed into the wedding

The 5 foolish virgins could not receive oil from the others, even if they wanted to. You cannot give the Spirit to another, only God can. So their outside garments hid their lack of relationship with Jesus.the Spirit cannot be bought or sold.

We need to know Jesus, and we need to study the word of God.

 

[Mr E]

I heard it was this way.

They were brides--so they were all members of the church, but church membership does not guarantee salvation.
The lamps they carried were the Word of God.
Ps 119:105 "Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path."

The oil, of course is the Holy Spirit.
.

Both groups are asleep. There was a cry that the Bridegroom was coming
Those who had a relationship with Jesus and were grounded in the Word were allowed into the wedding

The 5 foolish virgins could not receive oil from the others, even if they wanted to. You cannot give the Spirit to another, only God can. So their outside garments hid their lack of relationship with Jesus.the Spirit cannot be bought or sold.

We need to know Jesus, and we need to study the word of God.

You need the word IN you. You need the flame burning IN you. It's not about your effort, it's what He gives you.

 

[Mr E]

You need the word IN you. You need the flame burning IN you. It's not about your effort, it's what He gives you.

Love that shoebill by the way. I just love it. Unique. Special.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Great! What "scripture" informed you that half of the ten virgins had less information than the other half?

If the man of the house knew what day his Lord would come, he would not have let himself suffer loss. Because people are generally wise enough to see to their best interests. So if the 5 virgins who weren’t wise had known what they needed to know to protect their best interests, they would have shrewdly protected their interests.

Also,
8 “The master commended the dishonest manager because he had acted shrewdly. For the people of this world are more shrewd in dealing with their own kind than are the people of the light. 9 I tell you, use worldly wealth to gain friends for yourselves, so that when it is gone, you will be welcomed into eternal dwellings.

Even the dishonest manager was shrewd enough to protect what was in his best interests. But the children of the light are not shrewd in protecting their best interests? Why not? THEY have the Holy Spirit, for crying out loud!
Shouldnt they have MORE understanding so as to protect their best interests? So why DONT they? What happened that they aren’t shrewd? Aren’t they to be shrewd as snakes but innocent as doves? There is way, way more to the parables than the children of light have seen. So what on earth has caused that? Why don’t THEY have the information and knowledge to protect their best interests? How has THAT happened?
Answer - Bad and vague doctrines, just as the op wanted to open a discussion on. Bad information.






,

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I asked you if you 'searched the scriptures for understanding' -- you said that's what you do. Did you?

Did you read those passages I pointed you to?

I search the scriptures for understanding.
I also search them to see if a man is telling the truth.
If you told me anything, I would do the same with what you said. But YOU haven’t said anything that I would need to check them about.

 

[Nancy]

If I go collect and and store winter coats for the homeless for when winter comes, would you tell me I did a bad thing? Or if I work in a soup kitchen to help feed hungry people? Of course not. Because I DIDNT do a bad or wrong thing, and you would not say I did.

But I have begun to see that touch of selfishness, of pride, of pettiness, arrogance, still IN me. Because I now see this and am bothered by it, NOW does it make my collecting of coats a bad thing? No. At no point is my collecting of coats a despicable thing. But I HAVE seen I am not holy and completely pure and I have begun to hunger for true righteousness in my inner man.
I WANT to be spotless, but I do what I don’t want. I do what I agree is not good and snap at the other lady who helps me with the coats because she’s going on and on about how this one has a little fraying at the cuffs or that one has a small spot on the pocket. I snap at her, we are trying to keep them from FREEZING to death, not dressing them for a job interview!! NOW is my collecting of the coats a despicable thing? No. It is still a good thing to do to care that homeless men don’t freeze to death in their tent in the woods.

Now do you see that the righteousness a man is capable of (caring that the homeless not freeze) is not a bad thing? Just because I am not perfect, holy, it is still not a bad thing.

And,
35 but in every nation the one who [a]fears Him and [b]does what is right is acceptable to Him.

So using me and coats, would you say my collecting of coats is not acceptable to God? Does He see I have done a bad thing to collect them? Haven’t I cared that my brother not freeze at least as much as I care that I don’t freeze? Would you say my collecting of coats is a foul and dirty thing, like a mildewed and mustering sponge in the sink? no. You would not.

Now if I compared the righteousness/the right thing I have done with the coats against the righteousness and holiness of our Lord, THEN what I did would appear as the filthy sponge in the sink.

That’s the comparison of the righteousness a man can do against holiness.

As Epi taught us in zoom, some verses concern the righteousness men are capable of and some concern the holiness of God. Remember when he compared Annais and Saphira with the man God told to go to Paul and asked why, although he argued with God, why wasn’t HE struck dead?

"If I go collect and and store winter coats for the homeless for when winter comes, would you tell me I did a bad thing? Or if I work in a soup kitchen to help feed hungry people?
Of course not. Because I DIDNT do a bad or wrong thing, and you would not say I did."

No, wouldn't say that.

"But I have begun to see that touch of selfishness, of pride, of pettiness, arrogance, still IN me. Because I now see this and am bothered by it, NOW does it make my collecting of coats a bad thing? No. At no point is my collecting of coats a despicable thing. But I HAVE seen I am not holy and completely pure and I have begun to hunger for true righteousness in my inner man."

Did one not see this selfishness, of pride, pettiness and arrogance in oneself before collecting coats for the homeless and disadvantaged, or was it only after? Sounds like a matter of "motive" to me. Although, the act of doing right, collecting/delivering the coats...despite snapping at at "helper", was a righteous thing to do! But then my thoughts go back to motive...


"Now do you see that the righteousness a man is capable of (caring that the homeless not freeze) is not a bad thing? Just because I am not perfect, holy, it is still not a bad thing."

Your motive here is "caring" and delivering warmth to someone who may be destitute for reasons we will probably never know. This is living righteously through your compassion. I think there are going to be a lot of short, and to the point people who some see as hard and un-caring, in heaven and if we end up in the other place...will see many nice and kind folks! Albeit, miserable as all get out...

"And,
35 but in every nation the one who [a]fears Him and does what is right is acceptable to Him."

Yes...and to fear OR love Him, we must know HIS character I would think. How to rightly fear without compromising our boldness approaching His throne...?

"So using me and coats, would you say my collecting of coats is not acceptable to God? Does He see I have done a bad thing to collect them? Haven’t I cared that my brother not freeze at least as much as I care that I don’t freeze? Would you say my collecting of coats is a foul and dirty thing, like a mildewed and mustering sponge in the sink? no. You would not."

Even if you were doing this with ulterior motives, it is still a good thing to do. OTOH, if claiming Christ as our savior, our motives would count for everything, JMO :)


"Now if I compared the righteousness/the right thing I have done with the coats against the righteousness and holiness of our Lord, THEN what I did would appear as the filthy sponge in the sink."

Bacteria soaked sponges for sure.


"That’s the comparison of the righteousness a man can do against holiness."

Agreed our righteousness is "as filthy rags" compared to His Holiness and our righteousness is as His. Yet, outside of His righteousness is the Law...?
Our righteousness is "imputed" on us and we build on His righteousness...Ahhh, not getting words out well or in order, sry but, you should be able to follow my kooky posts by now, lol. Anyhow still working on FULLY "getting" this but, will diligently continue to seek!

"As Epi taught us in zoom, some verses concern the righteousness men are capable of and some concern the holiness of God. Remember when he compared Annais and Saphira with the man God told to go to Paul and asked why, although he argued with God, why wasn’t HE struck dead?"

Yes, I do remember the comparison...but I have not looked up the verse so, my recall of the comparison is off. I'll check it out after I send this off and let the dogs out and call my sister and answer several texts...all or, not a thing...

 

[Mr E]

I search the scriptures for understanding.
I also search them to see if a man is telling the truth.
If you told me anything, I would do the same with what you said. But YOU haven’t said anything that I would need to check them about.

So you haven't bothered to search those scriptures I pointed you to, and you haven't found any scriptures that inform you that one group of five virgins had any more clarity (information) than the other. But you choose to believe the Episkopus doctrine that leads you in that direction. You reap your reward.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Did one not see this selfishness, of pride, pettiness and arrogance in oneself before collecting coats for the homeless and disadvantaged, or was it only after?

If I love and care about my neighbor at least as much as I love and care about myself, that’s righteous. It’s righteous before I start seeing what I still lack and it remains righteous after I’m given to see what I still lack so that I can ask for what I lack.

If a man does the right thing but he has not yet ever walked in the Spirit in holiness, it doesn’t change that he did a good and right thing.

Men teach that God does not accept men who do righteously. They seem to think God only accepts holy men. It’s because of bad doctrines. 22 You have discouraged the righteous with your lies, but I didn’t want them to be sad. And you have encouraged the wicked by promising them life, even though they continue in their sins.

There is a lot more to see than we’ve been taught.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

So you haven't bothered to search those scriptures I pointed you to, and you haven't found any scriptures that inform you that one group of five virgins had any more clarity (information) than the other. But you choose to believe the Episkopus doctrine that leads you in that direction. You reap your reward.

I gave you scriptures. You just don’t think they show that the 5 virgins would have been wise if they had all the information they needed to not do foolishly.

 

[Nancy]

If I love and care about my neighbor at least as much as I love and care about myself, that’s righteous. It’s righteous before I start seeing what I still lack and it remains righteous after I’m given to see what I still lack so that I can ask for what I lack.

If a man does the right thing but he has not yet ever walked in the Spirit in holiness, it doesn’t change that he did a good and right thing.

Men teach that God does not accept men who do righteously. They seem to think God only accepts holy men. It’s because of bad doctrines. 22 You have discouraged the righteous with your lies, but I didn’t want them to be sad. And you have encouraged the wicked by promising them life, even though they continue in their sins.

There is a lot more to see than we’ve been taught.

Righteousness is as righteousness does...

the only thing I am going to toss in here right now is that no matter how righteousness a human being IS...his righteousness is as that sponge without...Jesus Christ.

 

[Mr E]

I gave you scriptures. You just don’t think they show that the 5 virgins would have been wise if they had all the information they needed to not do foolishly.

They don't. They weren't foolish for a lack of information. They just dismissed what was right in front of their faces.


You may say I'm a dreamer... it's how He speaks to me.

 

[Nancy]

I gave you scriptures. You just don’t think they show that the 5 virgins would have been wise if they had all the information they needed to not do foolishly.

The virgins, like ourselves have been forewarned enough to be held responsible. To actually be ready no matter the hour, and in the meantime, not to take for granted the "taste", the "Ernest" of the spirit. Not going to get out of my depth here...

 

[Nancy]

They don't. They weren't foolish for a lack of information. They just dismissed what was right in front of their faces.


You may say I'm a dreamer... it's how He speaks to me.

Maybe they were just...lazy?
BTW Love lot's of old John L's songs yet this one always gets me just at the title as, I simply cannot Imagine No Heaven...And to any who want to remind me that John Lennon was not a Christian and had some young, ignorant ang arrogant tings to say at the height of their career...he was still very talented and...he wasn't a preacher, he was a singer songwriter period... :)

 

[Triumph1300]

Really? i think even an unbeliever could understand it then. What of, it’s given you to understand the parables, but not everyone. Has that now changed to, it’s given to the whole world to understand the parables? Every human on earth can now quite simply understand, have the eyes to see?

I never mentioned "unbelievers", I assumed we were talking "Christians".
But anyhow....since you mention unbelievers.... looking at this thread, unbelievers would run away thinking they would have to be super intelligent brain surgeons to understand scripture and the many different opinions about it.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Agreed our righteousness is "as filthy rags" compared to His Holiness and our righteousness is as His. Yet, outside of His righteousness is the Law...?

Yes! Yes!
You are either learning righteousness, what it is, (which is loving your neighbor, which is law) practicing it, eventually seeing what you still lack and asking out of your poverty for what you lack,

Or you are in a middle place of more grace/power to overcome your flesh, prayer answered that you asked for when you saw your lack, weaned from the flesh, no longer murdering in your heart every day, not controlled mercilessly by your flesh as before, actually loving your neighbor not just outwardly but inwardly too and even when he is being quite nasty, loving even when he is unlovable, wanting so badly for him to have what you’ve been given so he doesn’t have to live in that miserable tyranny of his flesh because you know how miserable it was. So you even begin to pray for those who treat you despitefully and now, you truly mean it.
How did you receive this righteousness in your inner man that you were hungering for? You asked, in trust, and you received. Is that not the righteousness that is by trust/faith? It’s not some vague imputed thing. It’s a REAL thing.

And Then,
Remember when the man asked, what must I do to obtain eternal life. Jesus said, follow the commandments. He asked, which ones? Jesus answered with the tablet that concerns the commandments about loving your neighbor and treating him as you would want to be treated. The man says, I’ve done these. What do I still lack?
Jesus says, well, if you want to be PERFECT, sell all you have and follow Me. That’s the second tablet, which is holiness. It costs you everything you have, your whole life. The man walked away sad because he was not ready to sell all he had.

But what was the answer to what must I do to obtain eternal life? Wasn’t it the first tablet? Did He say it took holiness to be accepted into eternal life? No. So why do the doctrines teach us to claim things we have not yet obtained - imputed righteousness, holiness?

Is there a covering for sin and repentance and forgiveness before your prayer for true righteousness in the inside of your cup is answered and while you are still in that awful struggle With your flesh? Do we have an advocate if we sin? Yes and yes. And even afterwards, if we stumble. We ALWAYS have an Advocate who will never leave us through ALL of it if we stay humble and fear God and refuse to judge and take the lowest seat. Those are how we remain in safety, not by some vague and imputed thing. But by the covering of the Blood as we learn and grow and trust and hope and ask.

So why are we taught doctrines that teach us to claim things we aren’t and don’t yet have? Why on earth is that necessary…? He is so merciful and forgiving and patient. Isn’t that enough?.