Doctrinal Clarity or vagueness?

[Episkopos]

I had this thought that I thought to share with the forum.

Imagine you had the choice between 3 things...a parachute, scuba gear, and a jug of water. And you made this choice without being told clearly what the situation you were in as to what you might need.


So the one chooses a parachute, and ends up dying in the desert for lack of water.

Another grabs the scuba gear and ends up falling to his death from a burning plane.

And another grabs the water jug and dies drowning in the sea.

Had there been more clarity, each of these could have been informed to make a wiser choice. And we see this with the wise and foolish virgins.

There are variables so that a person might indeed choose correctly (at least for that time) and think that there is no danger in the vagueness. But sooner or later that vagueness that caused so many to fail, may one day also cause a disastrous situation.

Better to make wise decisions based on clear choices.

If we are walking in our own strength, the fear of the Lord is a better choice than to rely on an assurance that we are saved. The"perfect love that casts out all fear" is out of reach for the flesh. That is reserved for those who walk in the power of the Spirit.

 

[Mr E]

I had this thought that I thought to share with the forum.

Imagine you had the choice between 3 things...a parachute, scuba gear, and a jug of water. And you made this choice without being told clearly what the situation you were in as to what you might need.


So the one chooses a parachute, and ends up dying in the desert for lack of water.

Another grabs the scuba gear and ends up falling to his death from a burning plane.

And another grabs the water jug and dies drowning in the sea.

Had there been more clarity, each of these could have been informed to make a wiser choice. And we see this with the wise and foolish virgins.

There are variables so that a person might indeed choose correctly (at least for that time) and think that there is no danger in the vagueness. But sooner or later that vagueness that caused so many to fail, may one day also cause a disastrous situation.

Better to make wise decisions based on clear choices.

If we are walking in our own strength, the fear of the Lord is a better choice than to rely on an assurance that we are saved. The"perfect love that casts out all fear" is out of reach for the flesh. That is reserved for those who walk in the power of the Spirit.

I generally enjoy your musings, but this one's too much a reach.

The virgins went out knowing that they would be waiting an undetermined amount of time. The foolish ones took no extra oil. The wise ones prepared themselves for the scenario that came to be, where extra oil was needed. It's nothing like the picture you paint, where they lacked information. They lacked foresight. They didn't plan ahead for the potential situation that was possible, not that 'anything' was possible as in your scenario. They didn't plan ahead for what a real possibility based on what they knew.... it wasn't a vague possibility, but a real one.

There is no mention of the five who brought scuba gear. Now if that had been part of the parable, you'd be on to something. Five brought oil, and five brought scuba gear. ---Why did you bring oil? ummmm.... in case his coming is delayed and we have to wait longer. Why did you bring scuba gear? ummmm.... in case Episkopos thinks he's discovered something deep.

 

[Episkopos]

I generally enjoy your musings, but this one's too much a reach.

The virgins went out knowing that they would be waiting an undetermined amount of time. The foolish ones took no extra oil. The wise ones prepared themselves for the scenario that came to be, where extra oil was needed. It's nothing like the picture you paint, where they lacked information. They lacked foresight. They didn't plan ahead for the potential situation that was possible, not that 'anything' was possible as in your scenario. They didn't plan ahead for what a real possibility based on what they knew.... it wasn't a vague possibility, but a real one.

There is no mention of the five who brought scuba gear. Now if that had been part of the parable, you'd be on to something. Five brought oil, and five brought scuba gear. ---Why did you bring oil? ummmm.... in case his coming is delayed and we have to wait longer. Why did you bring scuba gear? ummmm.... in case Episkopos thinks he's discovered something deep.

OK Maybe you didn't get the gist of my musings.

The foolish virgins were sure of their salvation...based on a doctrine that said they were as saved as they could be. Even though they were sinful they thought they had God's righteousness "inputed" to them ....when they didn't understand such things. So they were worthy of condemnation. They missed the scale of their calling. So they were not ready when the time came. I would think that most modern Western believers are in exactly the same boat. How many think that their sins are covered based on proper beliefs?

We are rich and we think we lack nothing. Jesus warns the rich. But we would rather misunderstand Paul to justify a rich smug lifestyle. If we knew the truth...would we not act differently? Would we not prepare differently. Hence the idea of grabbing the wrong equipment for the situation.

Rather than rest on our laurels we ought to seek the Lord for the full measure of grace...where the oil never runs out.

I could also have used the idea of bringing a knife to a gunfight....but that may have sounded a little too violent.

People have abandoned the fear of the Lord. Why? Because they think they are in a position of "perfect love casts out ALL fear". People on this forum have said that they never fear the Lord...because He is such a pal...I suppose. But this is NOT the wise choice. To be accepted by God we need to fear Him. It has to do with having no confidence in the flesh.

 

[Episkopos]

How important is doctrinal clarity?

Well, very important. People may not realize that doctrinal vagueness allows for putting an opinion above scripture. We see this ALL the time. How many critics use opinion whereas the scripture is clear if you allow for multiple reference points?

On another thread a poster assumed his opinion mattered more than the Bible. The reasoning seemed sound...until it was discovered that human opinion doesn't count. We can justify what we do by measuring against our own logic and feelings...based on vague doctrines...but that course is not wise.

“Take heed unto yourself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this you shall both save yourself, and them that hear you.” 1 Tim. 4:16

 

[Mr E]

I had this thought that I thought to share with the forum.

Imagine you had the choice between 3 things...a parachute, scuba gear, and a jug of water. And you made this choice without being told clearly what the situation you were in as to what you might need.


So the one chooses a parachute, and ends up dying in the desert for lack of water.

Another grabs the scuba gear and ends up falling to his death from a burning plane.

And another grabs the water jug and dies drowning in the sea.

Had there been more clarity, each of these could have been informed to make a wiser choice. And we see this with the wise and foolish virgins.

There are variables so that a person might indeed choose correctly (at least for that time) and think that there is no danger in the vagueness. But sooner or later that vagueness that caused so many to fail, may one day also cause a disastrous situation.

Better to make wise decisions based on clear choices.

If we are walking in our own strength, the fear of the Lord is a better choice than to rely on an assurance that we are saved. The"perfect love that casts out all fear" is out of reach for the flesh. That is reserved for those who walk in the power of the Spirit.

I generally enjoy your musings, but this one's too much a reach.

The virgins went out knowing that they would be waiting an undetermined amount of time. The foolish ones took no extra oil. The wise ones prepared themselves for the scenario that came to be, where extra oil was needed. It's nothing like the picture you paint, where they lacked information. They lacked foresight. They didn't plan ahead.

There is no mention of the five who brought scuba gear.

OK Maybe you didn't get the gist of my musings.

The foolish virgins were sure of their salvation...based on a doctrine that said they were as saved as they could be. Even though they were sinful they thought they had God's righteousness "inputed" to them ....when they didn't understand such things. So they were worthy of condemnation. They missed the scale of their calling. So they were not ready when the time came. I would think that most modern Western believers are in exactly the same boat. How many think that their sins are covered based on proper beliefs?

We are rich and we think we lack nothing. Jesus warns the rich. But we would rather misunderstand Paul to justify a rich smug lifestyle. If we knew the truth...would we not act differently? Would we not prepare differently. Hence the idea of grabbing the wrong equipment for the situation.

Rather than rest on our laurels we ought to seek the Lord for the full measure of grace...where the oil never runs out.

I could also have used the idea of bringing a knife to a gunfight....but that may have sounded a little too violent.

People have abandoned the fear of the Lord. Why? Because they think they are in a position of "perfect love casts out ALL fear". People on this forum have said that they never fear the Lord...because He is such a pal...I suppose. But this is NOT the wise choice. To be accepted by God we need to fear Him. It has to do with having no confidence in the flesh.

Where does scripture say-- or even suggest that the virgins were sure of their salvation, sinful, or thought that they had God's righteousness 'inputed' to them? Those are your ideas. I think you completely missed the meaning of the parable. It's not about you, or us. It's told in reference to 'the Kingdom of God' and what that is like.

The context given in the preceding verses associates the parable to the signs of the end of the age, and the idea of preparedness. It's about being ready-- because you do not know...

--then the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not foresee,

--At that time, the kingdom of heaven will be like.....


Just take the L on this one, Jean.

 

[Episkopos]

Where does scripture say-- or even suggest that the virgins were sure of their salvation, sinful, or thought that they had God's righteousness 'inputed' to them? Those are your ideas. I think you completely missed the meaning of the parable. It's not about you, or us. It's told in reference to 'the Kingdom of God' and what that is like.

The context given in the preceding verses associates the parable to the signs of the end of the age, and the idea of preparedness. It's about being ready-- because you do not know...

--then the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not foresee,

--At that time, the kingdom of heaven will be like.....


Just take the L on this one, Jean.

Actually, I get my ideas by looking at the whole counsel of God.

Look at the Laodicean church. It is the final church in the list in Revelation.

Now compare the musings of that church with the musings of modern believers...and you get a perfect match!

The imputing ideas are Luther's not mine. Its' what makes people feel rich when they are poor...clothed when they are naked.

This is about repentance (a complete change of direction) not just thinking ahead to stock up on preserves.

Why is this the case? When you justify the entire person...you avoid the cross of Christ.

So this is about cross avoidance. No fear, only smug assurances. How else could a person who is poor think they are rich?

You need to think harder to get this one!

 

[ScottA]

How important is doctrinal clarity?

Well, very important. People may not realize that doctrinal vagueness allows for putting an opinion above scripture. We see this ALL the time. How many critics use opinion whereas the scripture is clear if you allow for multiple reference points?

On another thread a poster assumed his opinion mattered more than the Bible. The reasoning seemed sound...until it was discovered that human opinion doesn't count. We can justify what we do by measuring against our own logic and feelings...based on vague doctrines...but that course is not wise.

“Take heed unto yourself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this you shall both save yourself, and them that hear you.” 1 Tim. 4:16

Yes, there are many threads here on Christianity Board that are opinion or only part of the scriptures and little more than dangerous half truth and error.

Example: One thread author recently argued that the temple of prophecy was indeed "stone" with pages of partial data to support it. After years of study and perhaps false information going out to untold thousands of victims of his error, there was still a missing piece--a major hole in his thereby false doctrine, which he had obviously overlooked: "But He was speaking of the temple of His body." John 2:21

But let's not make this about the above example of doctrinal error, for the topic of this thread is rather stated as doctrinal clarity vs. vagueness.

 

[Mr E]

Actually, I get my ideas by looking at the whole counsel of God.

Look at the Laodicean church. It is the final church in the list in Revelation.

Now compare the musings of that church with the musings of modern believers...and you get a perfect match!

The imputing ideas are Luther's not mine. Its' what makes people feel rich when they are poor...clothed when they are naked.

This is about repentance (a complete change of direction) not just thinking ahead to stock up on preserves.

Why is this the case? When you justify the entire person...you avoid the cross of Christ.

So this is about cross avoidance. No fear, only smug assurances. How else could a person who is poor think they are rich?

You need to think harder to get this one!

Ha! I love you man, but you can't make a point about the need for clarity versus vagueness while employing "the whole counsel of God" principle as a generality, to then go on to discussing a specific example (the parable of the virgins). Intellectual honesty dictates a better effort. I don't need to think harder in order to make your point for you. You need to make a better point.

The parable you introduced as an example has nothing to do with the stretched point you were trying so hard to make. The point you were trying to make itself was extremely vague and the scripture stands alone with clarity apart from your attempt to make it something unrelated based not on the text itself, but 'the whole counsel of God.' Concede this for the sake of your integrity.

Moving on.

 

[Enoch111]

If we are walking in our own strength, the fear of the Lord is a better choice than to rely on an assurance that we are saved.

Here is another straw man argument from Guru Episkopos (who is in fact a false teacher).

Genuine Christians know that (a) they are justified by grace through faith, (b) they are not to walk in their own strength since they have the indwelling Holy Spirit, (c) they are to walk in the Spirit and mortify the flesh, and (d) it is God Himself who is their Salvation, therefore they have full assurance of salvation.

So if anyone does not have full assurance of their salvation after having believed on Christ, then you do have a serious problem. But to suggest that those who have assurance of their salvation are delusional is in fact to do the work of the devil. The devil hates to have people believe God and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. The devil wants everyone to doubt their salvation, as though it depended on their merits or goodness instead of the grace of God and the finished work of Christ.

 

[amigo de christo]

Here is another straw man argument from Guru Episkopos (who is in fact a false teacher).

Genuine Christians know that (a) they are justified by grace through faith, (b) they are not to walk in their own strength since they have the indwelling Holy Spirit, (c) they are to walk in the Spirit and mortify the flesh, and (d) it is God Himself who is their Salvation, therefore they have full assurance of salvation.

So if anyone does not have full assurance of their salvation after having believed on Christ, then you do have a serious problem. But to suggest that those who have assurance of their salvation are delusional is in fact to do the work of the devil. The devil hates to have people believe God and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. The devil wants everyone to doubt their salvation, as though it depended on their merits or goodness instead of the grace of God and the finished work of Christ.

Notice it says the five were wise and five were foolish . FIVE did not follow Christ . thems the foolish ones .

 

[Enoch111]

Notice it says the five were wise and five were foolish . FIVE did not follow Christ . thems the foolish ones .

Correct. The parable of the Ten Virgins represents Christendom. There are hundreds of thousands who are nominally Christians but do not have the indwelling Holy Spirit (the oil that was missing). They believe they are saved because (a) they were baptized as babies, (b) born in a Christian home, or (c) made a profession of faith without genuine repentance and conversion. They are represented by the foolish virgins. Which means that every person must examine themselves carefully to see whether or not they have truly believed on the Lord Jesus Christ and turned away from all sins and idols.

At the same time, the Holy Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are indeed children of God, heirs of God, and joint heirs with Christ. So the assurance of salvation is something which God gives to the genuine believer.

 

[amigo de christo]

Correct. The parable of the Ten Virgins represents Christendom. There are hundreds of thousands who are nominally Christians but do not have the indwelling Holy Spirit (the oil that was missing). They believe they are saved because (a) they were baptized as babies, (b) born in a Christian home, or (c) made a profession of faith without genuine repentance and conversion. They are represented by the foolish virgins. Which means that every person must examine themselves carefully to see whether or not they have truly believed on the Lord Jesus Christ and turned away from all sins and idols.

At the same time, the Holy Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are indeed children of God, heirs of God, and joint heirs with Christ. So the assurance of salvation is something which God gives to the genuine believer.

yes indeed my friend .

 

[amigo de christo]

Correct. The parable of the Ten Virgins represents Christendom. There are hundreds of thousands who are nominally Christians but do not have the indwelling Holy Spirit (the oil that was missing). They believe they are saved because (a) they were baptized as babies, (b) born in a Christian home, or (c) made a profession of faith without genuine repentance and conversion. They are represented by the foolish virgins. Which means that every person must examine themselves carefully to see whether or not they have truly believed on the Lord Jesus Christ and turned away from all sins and idols.

At the same time, the Holy Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are indeed children of God, heirs of God, and joint heirs with Christ. So the assurance of salvation is something which God gives to the genuine believer.

Yes indeed . They need to examine to see whether or not they have truly believed on the LORD JESUS CHRIST
or was it another jesus . What starts with a B and ends with an E and folks need to get dug into it . BIBLE .
Too many are leading folks astray .

 

[Wrangler]

Imagine you had the choice between 3 things...a parachute, scuba gear, and a jug of water. And you made this choice without being told clearly what the situation you were in as to what you might need.

I'm sorry if this sounds harsh but I cannot imagine an OP so hell bent on relying on ones own understanding, in direct opposition to the Word of God @ Proverbs 3:5-6. You are again pushing gnosticism, special knowledge, foisting your own understanding as the basis for action.

OK Maybe you didn't get the gist of my musings.

<sigh> A pattern observed today with you. It's always the other person's short coming. Not very humble there @Episkopos. Not very humble at all.

 

[Wrangler]

Ha! I love you man, but you can't make a point about the need for clarity versus vagueness while employing "the whole counsel of God" principle as a generality, to then go on to discussing a specific example (the parable of the virgins). Intellectual honesty dictates a better effort. I don't need to think harder in order to make your point for you. You need to make a better point.

I made a similar point in a different thread. He said he invited scrutiny of what he says, then disregarded all my questions. Intellectual honesty, indeed.

How important is doctrinal clarity?

Well, very important.

Where is this in Scripture? No where!

Still pushing idolatry. Another pattern observed today with you is how your threads today are void of Scriptural foundation. Notice how you do not ground your thesis in God's Word? It's because your thesis is not found in Scripture.

There is no doctrinal purity test for salvation in Scripture. There is no doctrinal clarity requirement. Although you mean well, you are like the Pharisee's adding a burden to people that God does not. When Peter says in 1 Peter 3:15, to always be ready to offer a defense for the hope you have, it is personal. Your testimony. Your witness. It is unimpeachable.

What I tell atheists, I tell you. The failure of your position is not recognizing while you have an argument, we have experience. My experience with God is a relationship rooted in my obedience to his will. What is important - dare I say, very important - is doing what he says, including fulfilling your purpose in life, which is not doctrinal clarity! Notice how the verse below does not say that our mission is doctrinal clarity?


All of this is a gift from our Creator God, who has pursued us and brought us into a restored and healthy relationship with Him through the Anointed. And He has given us the same mission, the ministry of reconciliation, to bring others back to Him.
2 Corinthians 5:18 VOICE

 

[Wrangler]

How important is doctrinal clarity?

Well, very important.

A 2nd bite at this apple.

This is a fellowship lounge, not a doctrinal study or debate lounge. This means relationships.

In the other thread, I mentioned my devout Catholic grandmothers. (Which you also ignored) While devout, theologians they weren't. These 2 women modeled the Christian life for over 150 combined years. They didn't have anything like 'doctrinal clarity.'

When I read your threads, they read to me as an impeachment against such simple Christians, living as the word of God commands. What seems missing from your threads is heart knowledge. When I read your threads, I feel you have a god complex and are letting me (us) know I am not measuring up to your made up expectations. I feel such a lack of humility in the premise of your threads today, it's really shocking.

One can be wrong while eloquently defending the error. Another can be doctinally correct but wholly inadequate in terms of elocution. Let me end by giving you this to ponder.


The mission given to me by the Anointed One is not about baptism, but about preaching good news. The point is not to impress others by spinning an eloquent, intellectual argument; that type of rhetorical showboating would only nullify the cross of the Anointed.
1 Corinthians 1:17 VOICE

 

[ScottA]

Ha! I love you man, but you can't make a point about the need for clarity versus vagueness while employing "the whole counsel of God" principle as a generality, to then go on to discussing a specific example (the parable of the virgins). Intellectual honesty dictates a better effort. I don't need to think harder in order to make your point for you. You need to make a better point.

The parable you introduced as an example has nothing to do with the stretched point you were trying so hard to make. The point you were trying to make itself was extremely vague and the scripture stands alone with clarity apart from your attempt to make it something unrelated based not on the text itself, but 'the whole counsel of God.' Concede this for the sake of your integrity.

Moving on.

I'm sorry if this sounds harsh but I cannot imagine an OP so hell bent on relying on ones own understanding, in direct opposition to the Word of God @ Proverbs 3:5-6. You are again pushing gnosticism, special knowledge, foisting your own understanding as the basis for action.



<sigh> A pattern observed today with you. It's always the other person's short coming. Not very humble there @Episkopos. Not very humble at all.

I made a similar point in a different thread. He said he invited scrutiny of what he says, then disregarded all my questions. Intellectual honesty, indeed.



Where is this in Scripture? No where!

Still pushing idolatry. Another pattern observed today with you is how your threads today are void of Scriptural foundation. Notice how you do not ground your thesis in God's Word? It's because your thesis is not found in Scripture.

There is no doctrinal purity test for salvation in Scripture. There is no doctrinal clarity requirement. Although you mean well, you are like the Pharisee's adding a burden to people that God does not. When Peter says in 1 Peter 3:15, to always be ready to offer a defense for the hope you have, it is personal. Your testimony. Your witness. It is unimpeachable.

What I tell atheists, I tell you. The failure of your position is not recognizing while you have an argument, we have experience. My experience with God is a relationship rooted in my obedience to his will. What is important - dare I say, very important - is doing what he says, including fulfilling your purpose in life, which is not doctrinal clarity! Notice how the verse below does not say that our mission is doctrinal clarity?


All of this is a gift from our Creator God, who has pursued us and brought us into a restored and healthy relationship with Him through the Anointed. And He has given us the same mission, the ministry of reconciliation, to bring others back to Him.
2 Corinthians 5:18 VOICE

I don't see your objections as being helpful, but do see the possibility of discussing this topic as being helpful.

Where it may not be stated in a way you consider adequate, I understand @Episkopos to mean that many people believe, teach, and preach doctrines of partial truth not including all that is written. With the great amount of this going on, it is certainly a good point to discuss and hopefully dissuade some from so misrepresenting the truth from God. People are being lead astray.

 

[Mr E]

I don't see your objections as being helpful, but do see the possibility of discussing this topic as being helpful.

Where it may not be stated in a way you consider adequate, I understand @Episkopos to mean that many people believe, teach, and preach doctrines of partial truth not including all that is written. With the great amount of this going on, it is certainly a good point to discuss and hopefully dissuade some from so misrepresenting the truth from God. People are being lead astray.

If you are going to quote me directly, please address my point directly. I agree with you in that it’s worthy of discussion and also that many people grasp only partial truth and distribute even less than they themselves grasp.

The point I was making was simply that his point (and the example he used to make it) was extremely vague and in using a vague point that had nothing to do with the parable he pointed to - that in no way bolstered his plea— which was itself the need for clarity.

Then he tried to gloss over my observation by painting it with an even bigger generality. “The whole of scripture” without pointing to any scripture at all that could provide the clarity he demands of others.

 

[Wrangler]

many people believe, teach, and preach doctrines of partial truth not including all that is written ... People are being lead astray.

Hmmm. Sounds like too much is expected of teachers and preachers, if that is the case.

Not only are teachers and preachers imperfect human beings, long ago online I rejected the stated expectation that all my posts should be comprehensive in scope. Likewise, teachers and preachers only have a short amount of time. Of course they are not including all that is written on a given topic.

While focusing on one thing, they may touch tangentially on another.

One annoying observation I've been about such discussions is the anxiety that not everything is defined in said discussion. It makes communication impossible if we are not already speaking the same language with the words already defined prior to the discussion's beginning. For instance, Jesus said, 'take the plank out of your own eye before taking the speck out of your brother's eye.' It is memorable precisely because of its brevity.

If he included the definition of every word and all that was written about every word, it would be a forgettable mess.

When I was in school, students had the burden to figure it out for themselves - and ask questions to guide them in their self discovery. Now, the teacher is blamed for not closing the knowledge gap of all the students - a completely unrealistic expectation.

Having said that, I don't think this is the case. That is, I don't think the thread is about that. In life, we have to make choices despite not having all the information. (It is a coping skill that is being simultaneously undermined in another thread.) In fact, making decisions in the face of ambiguity is a hot topic in business, military and politics as witnessed in the recent global pandemic.

 

[Episkopos]

If you are going to quote me directly, please address my point directly. I agree with you in that it’s worthy of discussion and also that many people grasp only partial truth and distribute even less than they themselves grasp.

The point I was making was simply that his point (and the example he used to make it) was extremely vague and in using a vague point that had nothing to do with the parable he pointed to - that in no way bolstered his plea— which was itself the need for clarity.

Then he tried to gloss over my observation by painting it with an even bigger generality. “The whole of scripture” without pointing to any scripture at all that could provide the clarity he demands of others.

The point of this thread is not to show exact examples, but to agree on the importance of clarity.

If I was to use any example specifically the thread would spin off topic in a flash.

For an example (which I did not want to bring up)

The vague concept of what is saving faith.

Another example is the false doctrine of imputing righteousness (God's even) on oneself because of certain (magical?) beliefs? How do beliefs justify people?

Hint: Human beliefs and opinions do not equate to biblical faith.