Doctrine of Predestination

[Muna]

Sure. Those who follow Jesus not only agree with His words but believe and live by them.

Agreed, and I dont think there is much to live by (in practice) when it comes to what Jesus said was the everlasting fire that was prepared for the devil and his angels.

But since he shall say ALSO to them on the left hand (who he calls accursed) the same thing

Matt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels

I wouldn't dare to change his words

When it comes to one's interpretation of what He said over against another's then that's a different story.

If someone interprets everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels along with all the accursed to mean everlasting life in the love and grace of God, I believe that is misleading others down a path of great harm. And all their good words and fair speeches are deception.

Just look at His parables. There's sooo many different interpretations of each and every parable recorded wouldn't you agree.

Paul did say, "For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God", so it's something I would expect to see.

Edit:typo

 

[One 2 question]

Agreed, and I dont think there is much to live by (in practice) when it comes to what Jesus said was the everlasting fire that was prepared for the devil and his angels.

Ok. My attitude towards God has changed. My actions in praying and evangelism has changed a bit too. As God has chosen some for pre judgement salvation and the rest for later down the track.

But since he shall say ALSO to them on the left hand (who he calls accursed) the same thing

Matt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels

I wouldn't dare to change his words

Phew, that's good to hear. But those who try to gain understanding of Jesus's teaching apart from the Spirit of God may find themselves misinterpreting Him.

If someone interprets everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels along with all the accursed to mean everlasting life in the love and grace of God, I believe that is misleading others down a path of great harm. And all their good words and fair speeches are deception.

And if that's the extent of truth you have atm then great. But that's not for me. What God has shown me in regards to the reconciliation of every living being can't be unseen. It has been a very important and precious revelation of God Himself.

Paul did say, "For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God", so it's something I would expect to see.

Edit:typo

Sure. Tares will be planted amongst the wheat. Lies and truth will grow together. Otherwise Satan isn't fulfilling the role he was given, but he is hey, just as Jesus observed and told us.

 

[Muna]

Sure. Tares will be planted amongst the wheat. Lies and truth will grow together.

Indeed

 

[brightfame52]

Predestination is the sovereign, eternal, immutable, unalterable purpose of God almighty, by which he ordained and ordered, according to his own will and good pleasure, all things that come to pass in time.

Predestination is God’s purpose.

Rom 8:28

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Eph 1:11

In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

2 Tim 1:9


Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, 13

 

[One 2 question]

Predestination is the sovereign, eternal, immutable, unalterable purpose of God almighty, by which he ordained and ordered, according to his own will and good pleasure, all things that come to pass in time.

Predestination is God’s purpose.

And God's purpose is predetermined and then carried out by the sovereign Creator without objection. Who can know the inner desire of God at any given point in time? And who is there that could work out a way to fulfill it? None. Only God alone. Then who has the power and wisdom to actually carry it out? None. Only God Himself.

I love the fact that God works ALL things together according to HIS eternal purpose. And His creations only exist to fulfil HIS eternal purpose for HIS good pleasure.

 

[brightfame52]

Predestination is grounded in God alone and its #1 Unto Adoption

# 2 Why, because it pleased Him

#3 Its to the Praise of His Glory

Eph 1:5-6

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

God can boast/glory about this for all eternity 14

 

[Charlie24]

Predestination is grounded in God alone and its #1 Unto Adoption

# 2 Why, because it pleased Him

#3 Its to the Praise of His Glory

Eph 1:5-6

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

God can boast/glory about this for all eternity 14

What does vs. 5 actually mean, BF?

"Having predestined us unto the adoption of children BY Jesus Christ to Himself."

We were predestined to the adoption BY Jesus Christ.

Does that sound like a plan to you? A plan before the foundation of the world that man who believes will be adopted into God's family BY the finished work of Christ.

It's not a predestination of who will be saved, but rather how we will be saved, BY Jesus Christ.

God chose a particular way for man to be saved, that is the predestination. But only for "whosoever will."

 

[One 2 question]

What does vs. 5 actually mean, BF?

"Having predestined us unto the adoption of children BY Jesus Christ to Himself."

We were predestined to the adoption BY Jesus Christ.

Does that sound like a plan to you? A plan before the foundation of the world that man who believes will be adopted into God's family BY the finished work of Christ.

It's not a predestination of who will be saved, but rather how we will be saved, BY Jesus Christ.

God chose a particular way for man to be saved, that is the predestination. But only for "whosoever will."

Good one.

And .... before saying HOW He would predestine and save some, He told us WHO they would be and WHY He chose them to be saved.

(Who) He hath chosen US in him
[US = Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus]

(when) before the foundation of the world,

(Why) that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

 

[Charlie24]

Good one.

And .... before saying HOW He would predestine and save some, He told us WHO they would be and WHY He chose them to be saved.

(Who) He hath chosen US in him
[US = Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus]

(when) before the foundation of the world,

(Why) that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

We were "chosen in Him" before the foundation of the world. Who is Him?

We were chosen by the Father to be in Christ (Him) before the foundation of the world.

That was the plan, not a predestination of who would be saved, but how we would be saved.

For what purpose?

Rom. 8:29

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."

God's plan of redemption is accomplished by being "conformed to the image of Christ" through the progressive sanctification of the believer by the Holy Spirit.

Who qualifies for this plan of God?

Rom. 10:13

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

Who can call on Him?

Rom. 10:14

"How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?"

But Paul tells us not all have obeyed the Gospel when they heard it.

Rom. 10:16

"But they have not all obeyed the Gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?"

Did God intend for all to believe the Gospel, or just a select group?

Acts 17:30

"And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:"

So we can see here that God doesn't always get His way with man. Man is left with a choice to believe or not believe.

 

[One 2 question]

We were "chosen in Him" before the foundation of the world. Who is Him?

We were chosen by the Father to be in Christ (Him) before the foundation of the world.

That was the plan, not a predestination of who would be saved, but how we would be saved.

The Divine Designer and Creator sure has a plan. And the script He imagined before the creation of the world is being carried out exactly.

Those He imagined and chose to be in Christ will be in Him by God's chosing, every last one from every tongue tribe people and nation.

For what purpose?

Rom. 8:29

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."

God's plan of redemption is accomplished by being "conformed to the image of Christ" through the progressive sanctification of the believer by the Holy Spirit.

How and who would be redeemed to be conformed to the likeness of His Son in this life. What was the example Jesus set? Who did Jesus identify as, a servant. Who are we becoming? A servant.

Why? So we can reign with Jesus. Who has Jesus become now? The King of kings and Great High Priest. Who will we become? Kings and priests to serve our God.

Who qualifies for this plan of God?

Rom. 10:13

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

Who can call on Him?

Rom. 10:14

"How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?"

But Paul tells us not all have obeyed the Gospel when they heard it.

Rom. 10:16

"But they have not all obeyed the Gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?"

Did God intend for all to believe the Gospel, or just a select group?

Both.

Again, for different purposes. The limited number chosen in Christ in this age are to rule with Him in His coming global government which will be on His shoulders.

Then as God wills, planned, scripted ALL will repent and be saved because that's simply what He wants and He gets exactly what He desires.

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Acts 17:30

"And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:"

So we can see here that God doesn't always get His way with man. Man is left with a choice to believe or not believe.

Yes, God sometimes factors in our desires and will. Other times He doesn't. But in all that comes to pass, it's all for the Creator's pleasure. Pretty simple hey. Not complicated really. It's gets complicated when we try to imagine is all about us humans. But nah! We got that wrong.

 

[brightfame52]

What does vs. 5 actually mean, BF?

Read the post I'm sharing my understanding

 

[Charlie24]

The Divine Designer and Creator sure has a plan. And the script He imagined before the creation of the world is being carried out exactly.

Those He imagined and chose to be in Christ will be in Him by God's chosing, every last one from every tongue tribe people and nation.

How and who would be redeemed to be conformed to the likeness of His Son in this life. What was the example Jesus set? Who did Jesus identify as, a servant. Who are we becoming? A servant.

Why? So we can reign with Jesus. Who has Jesus become now? The King of kings and Great High Priest. Who will we become? Kings and priests to serve our God.

Both.

Again, for different purposes. The limited number chosen in Christ in this age are to rule with Him in His coming global government which will be on His shoulders.

Then as God wills, planned, scripted ALL will repent and be saved because that's simply what He wants and He gets exactly what He desires.

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Yes, God sometimes factors in our desires and will. Other times He doesn't. But in all that comes to pass, it's all for the Creator's pleasure. Pretty simple hey. Not complicated really. It's gets complicated when we try to imagine is all about us humans. But nah! We got that wrong.

"God sometimes factors in our desires and will?"

We only have to go back to the Garden of Eden to see that God honors mans decision to obey or disobey Him.

The decision to obey God in repentance today is the exact same for us as it was for Adam and Eve.

 

[One 2 question]

"God sometimes factors in our desires and will?"

When they are according to His script. I doubt this happens very often though.

We only have to go back to the Garden of Eden to see that God honors mans decision to obey or disobey Him.

Sure. But it looked far too set up to me. God set the stage perfectly for what actually happened with Adam and Eve.

The decision to obey God in repentance today is the exact same for us as it was for Adam and Eve.

Sure. Yet Satan has been given the ability to blind the eyes of unbelievers and those who don't, or cannot repent.

 

[Charlie24]

When they are according to His script. I doubt this happens very often though.

Sure. But it looked far too set up to me. God set the stage perfectly for what actually happened with Adam and Eve.

Sure. Yet Satan has been given the ability to blind the eyes of unbelievers and those who don't, or cannot repent.

We certainly have our differences.

I see God setting the stage for man to exercise His God-given free will from the very beginning.

If God wanted robots He would do the choosing, but He left that choice to each individual to chose for themselves.

"Whosoever will let him come..."

 

[One 2 question]

We certainly have our differences.

I see God setting the stage for man to exercise His God-given free will from the very beginning.

Though if God with use of His foreknowledge saw the actions of Satan on Eve (tempting her to eat) Eve on Adam (tempting him to eat) AND the effect His designed and created tree was going to have, why didn't He scrap this disastrous idea before it even started?

If God wanted robots He would do the choosing, but He left that choice to each individual to chose for themselves.

"Whosoever will let him come..."

If one is born blind in Adam, blinded by satan and blinded by their desire for sin then how can anyone go against their inner longing to gratify the desires of their sinful nature and come towards the light of Christ? By the very nature we all were born with we all love darkness, there are no exceptions.

Only those who's eyes have been opened by Divine intervention can begin to see the wonder of the Christ.

Out of the same material the Creator made some robots for good honourable purposes and some for bad dishonourable purposes.

So whose will has, is and will always be carried out? Not the sinful human creation that's for sure and I'm really glad this is the case.

 

[brightfame52]

John Gill writing on Eph 1:5 predestination says:

Having predestinated us,.... Predestination, taken in a large sense, includes both election and reprobation, and even reaches to all affairs and occurrences in the world; to the persons, lives, and circumstances of men; to all mercies, temporal or spiritual; and to all afflictions, whether in love or in wrath: and indeed providence, or the dispensations of providence, are no other than the execution of divine predestination; but here it is the same with election, and is concerned with the same persons, and has regard to a special blessing, the elect are appointed to, as follows;
unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ unto himself; by which is meant, either the grace of adoption, which is an act of the Father's love, a blessing provided and secured in the covenant of grace; and is of persons to an inheritance, to which they have no legal right; and is entirely free, there being no need on the adopter's part, and no worth on the part of the adopted: or rather the inheritance they are adopted to; which exceeds all others, is incorruptible, undefiled, and fades not away; and lies among the saints in light, and belongs to all the children of God: and this they are predestinated unto by God the Father, who takes them into his family, puts them among the children, and gives them a goodly heritage: and that "by Jesus Christ"; or through him; for both the grace of adoption, and the kingdom and glory they are adopted to, come by and through him as Mediator; through his espousing their persons, assuming their nature, and redeeming them from under the law and its curses; through his giving them a power and privilege openly to be the sons of God; and through faith in him, whereby they are manifestly such: the phrase "unto himself", either refers to God the Father, who has chosen, set apart, formed and reserved his people and children for himself, for his peculiar treasure, and for his own glory; or to Jesus Christ, that he might have some brethren, and they be conformed to him, and he be the firstborn among them, and in all things have the pre-eminence; and that they might be with him, and behold his glory, and he be glorified in them: and this act of divine predestination was

according to the good pleasure of his will: the will of God is the rule of all his actions, and of all his acts of grace and goodness; and the good pleasure of it appears in the predestination of men to grace and glory: and from hence it is manifest, that foreseen faith, holiness, and good works, are excluded from being the moving cases of predestinating grace; and that it is wholly to be resolved into the good will and pleasure of God; the view in it being entirely as follows,

 

[Rockerduck]

My personal testimony is the same as King David. God told me I was chosen in Him before the foundation of the world and my days were determined before I was born.


Psalm 139:16 - NLT
You saw me before I was born.
Every day of my life was recorded in your book.
Every moment was laid out
before a single day had passed.

 

[Charlie24]

Though if God with use of His foreknowledge saw the actions of Satan on Eve (tempting her to eat) Eve on Adam (tempting him to eat) AND the effect His designed and created tree was going to have, why didn't He scrap this disastrous idea before it even started?

If one is born blind in Adam, blinded by satan and blinded by their desire for sin then how can anyone go against their inner longing to gratify the desires of their sinful nature and come towards the light of Christ? By the very nature we all were born with we all love darkness, there are no exceptions.

Only those who's eyes have been opened by Divine intervention can begin to see the wonder of the Christ.

Out of the same material the Creator made some robots for good honourable purposes and some for bad dishonourable purposes.

So whose will has, is and will always be carried out? Not the sinful human creation that's for sure and I'm really glad this is the case.

I believe man is totally depraved, that's clear from Scripture.

Where I disagree with my Calvinist friends is that "the hearing of the Gospel of Jesus Christ" is what breaks that barrier by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Christ told us that when He left this earth He would send the Comforter (Holy Spirit) and He would convict of sin and righteousness, and of Judgment.

Paul told us that faith comes by hearing the Word of God, I believe the faith to believe is in the hearing of the Gospel.

When man hears and the Holy Spirit convicts with Truth, man is left with a decision to accept or reject that Truth.

 

[One 2 question]

I believe man is totally depraved, that's clear from Scripture.

Where I disagree with my Calvinist friends is that "the hearing of the Gospel of Jesus Christ" is what breaks that barrier by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Christ told us that when He left this earth He would send the Comforter (Holy Spirit) and He would convict of sin and righteousness, and of Judgment.

Paul told us that faith comes by hearing the Word of God, I believe the faith to believe is in the hearing of the Gospel.

When man hears and the Holy Spirit convicts with Truth, man is left with a decision to accept or reject that Truth.

Thanks for sharing your insight

 

[Rockerduck]

Paul told us that faith comes by hearing the Word of God, I believe the faith to believe is in the hearing of the Gospel.

You can't put the Holy Spirit in a box and say this is how it works. I've heard and read many testimonies of the Holy Spirit coming upon people at home and anywhere, and my testimony is that it happened to me. This is what is called being Chosen. God can choose you at any time. I agree that faith comes by hearing and that is the way the majority get saved. In the 1800's conservative pastors would be preaching and some of the congregants would spontaneously start speaking in tongues and other praising the Lord in the middle of the sermon. God worked a great Revival. Others are pursued by God at work and at home for weeks and then just sit down on a bus and prayed for salvation.

After the word "Faith" add "in Jesus". By (the) Grace of God you have been saved by Faith in Jesus. Faith in Jesus comes by hearing. Remember, Faith (in Jesus) is the gift given by the Grace of God.