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Featured Doctrine of total inability/total depravity or do we have a free will.

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by Hobie, Apr 14, 2019.

  1. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    Gal 3:13-14
    13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, 'Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree':
    14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

    KJV

    Gal 3:22
    22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

    KJV

    The whole purpose of the fall was so all would be concluded under sin so Christ's Salvation would be by Faith for those who believe. There is nothing else to debate or consider behind the reason for the sin in God's Garden by Adam and Eve. The only other consideration we are shown in Scripture is that the devil sinned from the beginning, i.e., the devil is who actually committed the very first sin against God.
     
  2. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member

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    Don’t know, good question.
     
  3. Hobie

    Hobie Member

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    Again you are getting into man judging who is lost, but God will give it to anyone that ask, and yet they still can turn to self and sin, look at Peter .
    Luke 11:13
    If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
     
  4. Dave L

    Dave L Guest

    The Westminster Confession Chapter 3:1; God's Eternal Decree defines biblical predestination this way.

    1. God, from all eternity, did—by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will—freely and unchangeably ordain whatever comes to pass. Yet he ordered all things in such a way that he is not the author of sin, nor does he force his creatures to act against their wills; neither is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

    So as I understand, we freely choose for the reasons [contingency of second causes] God created along with us. To base our choices on as we meet up with them at the right time and place in life.

    Or to state it simply; People always base their free choices on the reasons God uses to control them.

    This resolves free will and divine sovereignty.
     
  5. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    Except that in that, people still don't have a choice in the matter; because God is controlling their decisions by pulling on the strings.
     
  6. Hobie

    Hobie Member

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    Now we need to have a look at the what the early church held as their belief, and the ideas that caused the formation of some of these new views. You have to back up and look at the Augustine's doctrine of Original Sin, the view that, because of Adam’s sin, every human being is a condemned sinner at birth. Before Augustine, Christians generally believed that while the corruption was inherited through the physical side by all human beings from Adam, guilt was acquired only by the individual’s choice to sin. Augustine’s doctrine, however, now maintained that guilt as well as weakness was every person’s birthright.

    According to Augustine, humanity inherits not only Adam's depraved nature but also the actual guilt of his transgression, which lends itself to allowing men to put them themselves into the position to judge others that they may not agree with. This also led to others applying the idea that if babies died before baptism, without the chance to have original sin cleansed from their souls, they would go to hell. It also established the premise that because of man’s incurable depravity, force could rightly be used against heretics and sinners.

    Despite the rejection of many Catholic teachings, John Calvin, picked up Augustine’s view of human nature in the doctrine of Original Sin. Thus Calvin, like Augustine, believed in the church’s dominance of civil government and the use of force against dissenters.

    For Calvin and Augustine, the doctrine of involuntary sin made necessary a doctrine of involuntary salvation. Certain ones would be predestined to be saved, while the others are predestined to be damned. Such a concept removes salvation entirely from the practical experience of humanity, basically it no longer matter what a person did. Thus we see the idea of predestination being formed and applied to when it eventually leads, being saved without any regard to free will.

    The salvation of men and women is, according to this view, not a freedom from sin through Christ in this present life, but clings to the vestiges of Original Sin, that mans guilt cannot be washed by Christ's blood. Repentance leads nowhere, as your guilt remains, and only if you are one of the 'predestined', can you gain freedom from the bondage of sin. This in effect moves towards what destroys hope, faith and charity or Gods love in mankind. It also stresses man taking control of who is 'predestined' and who is full of the 'guilt' and they now can 'apply judgment' in its various forms, such as burning at the stake, decapitation by the axman at the chopping block, etc..

    This was toned down as people came to America, but you can see it in the Puritans, who upheld the enforcement of church decrees by the state. Building on the original sin doctrine, the Puritans refused to grant liberty to the human will, believing it “naturally corrupt.” It was a view that led to strict adherence or banishment, such as what happened to Roger Williams. Gradually it faded, and then came the Second Great Awakening, largely an Arminian movement, with its focus on human perfectibility.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2019
  7. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    God made us all with free will. And each soul must... make their choice to believe on Him through His Son Jesus Christ, to have eternal life.

    If God had not made each soul with free will, then our love to Him would be plastic, like programmed robots, a meaningless type of love. He gave us the power of choice, and that is why Satan fell, because he wanted to be God.
     
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  8. Hobie

    Hobie Member

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    Yes, and the Holy Spirit does its workings to show and bring us to Christ, as not all of us get a dramatic road to Damascus experience like Paul.

    John 16:13-14
    13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
    14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
     
  9. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    I had a decision to make.

    Once I concluded that the Bible was true, then I had to decide whether I would obey Jesus or not.

    Much love!
    Mark
     
  10. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Not of their own will.

    :cool:
     
  11. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Hi Davy,

    Good points . . . I'd add on this last part, that perhaps Satan's sin was envy, once he realized that God planned to exalt these "mud people" He had just made.

    Much love!
    mark
     
  12. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    I'm not going to go into it with you. As I said, everyone must make their choice to believe, including Christ's Apostles. One of the jobs of God's called pastors is to discover from His Word just when that is.
     
  13. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    Apostle John said that Satan sinned from the beginning, meaning prior to Adam and Eve. The very first sin was Satan's sin in coveting God's throne. You can read about it in parable form in Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14.
     
  14. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

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    Then the hard part begins. Actually trying to live by that decision.
     
  15. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

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    Ephesians 2 does indeed say that naturally we are 'dead in trespasses and sins'.
     
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  16. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

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    Indeed. But when born again we are no longer natural.
     
  17. Hobie

    Hobie Member

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    How then do you read this text...

    2 Samuel 12
    1 And the Lord sent Nathan unto David. And he came unto him, and said unto him, There were two men in one city; the one rich, and the other poor.
    2 The rich man had exceeding many flocks and herds:
    3 But the poor man had nothing, save one little ewe lamb, which he had bought and nourished up: and it grew up together with him, and with his children; it did eat of his own meat, and drank of his own cup, and lay in his bosom, and was unto him as a daughter.
    4 And there came a traveller unto the rich man, and he spared to take of his own flock and of his own herd, to dress for the wayfaring man that was come unto him; but took the poor man's lamb, and dressed it for the man that was come to him.
    5 And David's anger was greatly kindled against the man; and he said to Nathan, As the Lord liveth, the man that hath done this thing shall surely die:
    6 And he shall restore the lamb fourfold, because he did this thing, and because he had no pity.
    7 And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man....

    Being 'born again' is a path of transformation by the Holy Spirit, it is not just a person saying 'oh I am born again so I cant sin any more'. God knows those who are His and will be saved, but we cannot out of presumption put ourselves in Gods place and declare ourselves without sin, because like David, we may stumble a bit even if we are on the path.
     
  18. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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