Does Bible Contradict Itself?

[robert derrick]

And by implication of that is if the meaning is understand, then they must also be hearing.

There have been efforts to link Matthew 13:13 "they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand..." to Paul's accounting.

I believe NIV translators are purposely mistranslating 22:9 with 'understood' rather than 'heard', in order to make that link and avoid the whole notion of possible contradiction with 9:7. It does not resolve anything, but rather only 'helps' readers to avoid the issue altogether. It is treating readers as babes, who cannot think for themselves. I believe this leads in a way to Paul's exhortation to go on to full growth in the Scriptures, and the admonition not to remain as babes in knowledge. (Heb 5:12-14)

Especially since 22:9 has nothing to do with 'hearing but not understanding'.

1. To prove Scripture with other Scripture, we must use it honestly in the context of it's meaning.

'Seeing see not; and hearing hear not' is always taken together with both seeing and hearing. There is never a Scripture that suggests 'Seeing, but hearing not' or 'Seeing not, but hearing'.

Spiritual theology of the Bible insists upon being both blind and deaf to the Spirit of God. It is not Scripturally possible for anyone to 'see and perceive', but 'hear and not understand', or vica versa (Matthew 13:14). Likewise, if one 'hears and understands', then that one will also 'see and perceive', and vica versa (Matthew 13:16).

If 22:9 was a spiritual accounting of the event, and Paul was actually speaking spiritually that the others 'heard but understood not', then for Scriptural integrity he must likewise confirm they 'indeed saw the light but perceived not'.

2. None of which makes any sense in context of the current even, to wit, he is giving a factual defense of his miraculous conversion in the face of an enraged lynch mob of fanatical Jews! He needed every factual supporting witness he could get. He states plainly they saw the physical light. And if they heard the physical voice, then why did he not just say so?? This is no time at all for theologically spiritual nuance and 'teaching'.

For these 2 reasons, the effort to spiritualize his account is: 1. impossible Scripturally 2. insane physically.

To keep things simple and in proper sense of Scripture (without fabricated translation), Paul is plainly saying those with him indeed saw the light but heard not the voice. Which is in direct contradiction of what God told (inspired) Luke in 9:7. Remember, Jesus was there as well and was perfect witness to everything, including the thoughts and intents of the heart.

I believe there is a very simple and possible explanation that nullifies any true accusation of absolute contradiction.

 

[Hemlock]

BAD NIV translators!
Bad! Bad !!

 

[robert derrick]

BAD NIV translators!
Bad! Bad !!

Well, hey, I did try to partly justify them as noble liars...:cool:

I like your style. Just dont say that to Bella over on the left, she may lick your face off.

 

[Triumph1300]

I have no axe to grind with translators

I do.
When some translations say Mary was a "good woman" and don't mention she was a virgin.
I also question some translations when they deleted the last verse of the prayer Jesus told us to pray.....

 

[Hemlock]

Not all NIV's are equal.
Some editions at least have a footnote about the Johannine Comma - some do not even mention that there were manuscripts that had such a Trinitarian verse.

 

[Hemlock]

Kill the Umpire!
Kill the bad translaters !!

 

[Enoch111]

Not all NIV's are equal.

But all are equally bad.

 

[Hemlock]

And many have PRINT THAT IS WAY TOO LITTLE !

Using reading glasses AND A MAGNIFYING GLASS - I can make out the two NIV's I have

 

[Taken]

Does Bible Contradict Itself?
OP^

- robert derrick -

Answer; No.
Page 1 of 2

The Bible is Book of "knowledge".
The "knowledge" IS: complied writings.
The "writings" ARE;
* Inspired - by God (in-spirited- By God)
The "writings" ARE;
* According TO; the person Who Heard and Saw.

Men "HEARD": the Word of God:
... In visions.
... From spirits (who have the POWER to Appear as things common to a earthly mans eyes).
... Earthly men "HEARD" other Earthly mens thoughts, expressed in their words.

Men "HEARD": the Word of God:
Which proclaimed: God Himself IS the
Creator and Maker of ALL things.

Men "SAW": the Creations of God:
... Earth, Water, Sky's, Stars, Sun, Moon, Plants, Fruits, Herbs, Animals, Man, Ores, Weather Effects, etc. ie. "kinds" of things.

From the get go TO THIS DAY:
No man, HAS Created or Made:
Gods "KIND" of things.

"Knowledge" IS One thing...
Then there "IS" the "UNDERSTANDING" of the "Knowledge".

Earthly men Are Created, out of their own Habitat (Earth).
What ARE the "ELEMENTS" of mankind Are the Same "ELEMENTS" of the Earth.
Thus...the mans Habitat, Earth, was Designed, TO SUSTAIN a mans LIFE.
(Ores, Minerals, Vitamins that ARE IN the Earth, come forth out of the Earth, into a man, that the mans NATURAL LIFE Physical LIFE, continues LIVING.)

That is "Knowledge" and a FORESHADOW of "additional Knowledge".

Earthly man, can Experiment, with Gods "Creations"..."and DID...and DOES".
Earth, Plants, Animals.
(Man sheltered in Caves, Ate Plants, Ate fruit, Ate Herbs, Built shelters from Trees, from Rock, Ate Animals, Made Clothing from Plants and Animals, Air Waves, Planting Seeds from Plants, Mixing Plants, Mixing Ores, etc.
(Discovering and Experimenting: the very basics of Science... First Taught... AND THE UNDERSTANDING "thereof"; First Given Men, Expressly BY God Himself.).

^ THAT also IS: a foreshadow. About the "UNDERSTANDING" of "KNOWLEDGE".

Knowledge...OF man; IS the mans Ability, to Receive Information and the Information become PROCESSED IN the mans;
CARNAL MIND.

Understanding....OF man: IS the mans Ability, to Receive Information IN his CARNAL MIND...and the CARNAL MIND; "LOGICALLY" assess BETWEEN...
two or more things for the mans most advantaged CHOICE.
* Here, a man "assesses" a favorable Advantage", Based ON his "LIMITED" Knowledge.
* As the mans "Knowledge" increases, the mans "Carnal Minded LOGICAL Conclusions", may Change at any moment.

The Foreshadowing: Of Gods "Understanding" (OVER a mans "understanding")

Ancient man was Directed (TOLD) to build.
"The Materials", were already Provided.
"The Understanding", of Precisely How and in What Manner to "assemble" the
Materials...Was:
Precisely "ACCORDING TO Gods Understanding".



* So ... HOW DOES an Earthly man...
NOT rely ON HIS "CARNAL MIND" to establish a "LOGICAL CONCLUSION" of "UNDERSTANDING"... and INSTEAD...
Receive and Rely ON:
Gods "Understanding" ?

The Foreshadow -
EXODUS 31:
[3] And I have filled him with the spirit of God , in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship...

The SPIRIT OF GOD!!!
The Fact...IS;
Earthly men Can SEE what God has Created.
Earthly men Can USE their Carnal Mind, to MAKE "logical conclusions" of Understanding...
However "Gods UNDERSTANDING", IS ONLY received unto an Earthy man...
BY the Spirit of God IN a man

Scripture..."Reiterates", Understanding OF Gods Word...IS ONLY given A MAN, By Gods SPIRIT, unto the man, BY Gods Giving.

Luke 24:
[45] Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures...

Simon Barajona's ability to Answer Jesus' Question...regarding WHO IS Jesus...and Simon answers; Jesus IS THE CHRIST...HOW DID Simon "KNOW"?
The Spirit of God, Gave Simon Gods Understanding...Jesus IS THE CHRIST

Matt: 16:
[17] And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Scripture ... WARNS:
Of Philosophers, (Carnal minded teaching).
Of Preachers, (Whose Teaching of Knowledge, CAN NOT be verified IN Scripture)

And THE HIGHLIGHT...
1) The "KNOWLEDGE" of Gods Word, IS Spoken, IS WRITTEN, for mankinds Advantage.
2) The "UNDERSTANDING" of Gods Word, IS Revealed Exclusively BY Gods Spirit.
3) The "UNDERSTANDING" of Gods Word, IS A GIFT, Expressly Given to a man, WHO Believes, Gods Word IS TRUE.

Man HAS Options, (freewill).
* Man can Hear Gods Word.
* Man can Read Gods Word.
* Man can Believe Gods Word...Doubt it, Wonder it, Deny it, Believe parts, Fear His Word, Embrace His Word...

There IS an itty bitty BLIP of very IMPORTANT "Scriptural" KNOWLEDGE...
Matt 17:
[17] So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

FAITH is a GIFT from God.....FOR HEARING the Word of God.

IF a man HEARS/reads, the Word of God, (even while believing, trusting, doubting, wondering, denying, believing some...)
That man IS being gifted, "MEASURES" of Gods gift of FAITH.
This IS "TASTING".
This IS "PARTAKING", in Gods Word.
This IS "PARTAKING", in Gods Gift of Faith.

Hear a LITTLE ..... Receive a Little Faith.
Stop Hearing....... Stop receiving Faith.
....Result, "Fallen from Faith".
Continue Hearing;
...Knowledge Increases; Faith Increases;
Belief Increases.

It is the individuals mans election: (freewill)...
To Continue Hearing, Increase Knowledge, Receive Increased Faith, his Belief Increases....and the Individual man...ELECTS TO... open his mouth and DECLARE ... "his Heartful Belief IN the Lord God Almighty".

FOR that ^ Confession...
AND FOR a man, Repenting of "Having HAD "Disbelief"...
That man...
IS Forgiven, (By the Lord God)
That man...
IS Given the Gift of the "FULLNESS" of Faith...
That man...
IS "MADE" changed, by the Power of God.
That man...
IS "KEPT" changed, by the Power of God.

We SEE, and HEAR..."understanding of men"...all day long, argue, debate, disagree...what and why...Something DOES or DOES NOT APPLY to a man.

ALL SCRIPTURE IS TRUE.
BUT ALL SCRIPTURE "DOES NOT APPLY"
TO EVERY MAN.

* Laws that Applies to Israel, may or may NOT Apply to a Gentile.
* Scripture that Appies to a man, may or may NOT Apply to a woman.
* Scripture that Applies to A Converted man, may or may NOT Apply to an UnConverted man.
* A Converted man IS FREE from Sin.
(He is NOT Sinless. He Can NOT continue to Commit Sin.)
His IS Forgiven his SIN.
His SIN IS Covered.
His SIN IS remembered no more (by God).
He can certainly TRESPASS Against men.
He can certainly FORGIVE men of Trespasses.
(And that DOES occur, "intentionally" and "unintentionally"....BECAUSE MEN DO NOT KNOW ALL THINGS.)
* What a man SHOULD have LEARNED, from GODS WORD...IS SIN IS AGAINST GOD...and ONLY GOD FORGIVES SIN.
* And BY the Spirit of God "within" a man, The Power of God, Gods Spirit IN A man, IS THE POWER that KEEPS a man FROM SINNING AGAINST GOD.
* And a man who Trespasses "AGAINST" a man...there are PRECEPTS...Scriptural teachings ON HOW TO handle "Trespasses" and "BEHAVIORS" "BETWEEN" men.
* THE Consequence;
For Trespasses (and behaviors) BETWEEN men,,,
1)...Any man who DOES as Gods Word Teaches...IS a Trespass God forgives.
2)...BUT WARNING...men HAVE THEIR OWN Consequences for Trespassing and behaviors..."Against them"...
(May be arrested, sued, May...instigate a physical beating, a drive by, a slander vendetta, etc.)

And Scriptural Knowledge says:
Gal 6:
[5] ... every man shall bear his own burden.

Every man...HAS FREEWILL...
* He can Hear, Learn, Continue TO ACCEPT Gods Word...or Reject it.
* He can Hear, Learn, Continue TO ACCEPT
Mans Word...or Reject it.
* Gods Inspired Word of Knowledge expressly Reveals "the Consequence" of ACCEPTING Gods Word and Gods Understanding, IS Favorable For TWO things;
1) Avoiding Gods Wrath.
2) Eternal LIFE "WITH" the Lord God.
* Gods Inspired Word of Knowledge expressly Reveal "the Consequence" of
ACCEPTING mans word and mans understanding, (over Gods Word and Gods Understanding)... IS unfavorable For Two things:
1) Subjection to Gods Wrath.
2) Rejection of Receiving Eternal LIFE "with" God.

 

[Taken]

Continued page 2 of 2


NO the Bible DOES NOT Contradict itself.
(1) What ONE man saw, What ONE man heard...IS revealed ACCORDING TO that ONE man.
I and another man, may give an account of a WIND STORM. I may see 6 birds fly across the sky, or hear a bird chirp...and INCLUDE that in my Account of describing the Storm...and another man may have only seen 1 bird and heard nothing...and he give an Account of what "he" saw. No big deal.
(2) What ONE man see, hears, Believes...is Accounted to that ONE man,
And THAT ^ is where "APPLICABILITY" is Paramount.
Which Scripture calls...
DIVIDING the WORD of TRUTH.
* All Scripture IS TRUE...
- Absolutely Some men "DO NOT BELIEVE"...as Scripture reveals.
- Absolutely Some men "DO mindfully Believe"...
As Scripture reveals.
- Absolutely Some men "DO spiritually Convert"..
As Scripture reveals.
* THREE EXAMPLES...THREE SCRIPTURAL TRUTHS...
* THREE "completely" Different Truths, that do NOT ALL Apply to each of the THREE individual men.

Col 1
[9] For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;

DILEMMA of MAN...
Even After a natural man SUBMITS to Gods Supernatural "CONVERSION"...
The CARNAL MIND; is still Active.
It requires Practice, Practice, Practice OF the Man...REGARDING SPIRITUAL things, Conversation reguarding Spiritual THINGS...TO:
MAKE his OWN Carnal Mind, "in subjection to", the Thoughts of his "new spirit, in his new heart"...
SINCE...it IS the MANS NEW SPIRIT, in his NEW HEART that is being FED, GODS
TRUTH and GODS UNDERSTANDING.

 

[Enoch111]

And many have PRINT THAT IS WAY TOO LITTLE !

That's like the fine print on shady contracts. You are not supposed to read it. Just sign on the dotted line and barter your life away.

 

[Taken]

Alot said there.
1. On day 3 pride of Lucifer discovered? I have heard that Satan's fall as lightening (Luke 10:18 ) was between Vs 1 and 2.
2. And His glory departed and corruption began? I thought corruption on earth began with Adam's transgression?

The Morning Stars were - Singing together AS the foundation of the Earth was Being Laid.

The Moring Stars - The Word of God and Lucifer.

The sons of God (Angels) were - Shouting for Joy AS the foundation of the Earth was being Laid.

Numb 24:
[17] I shall see him, but not now: I shall behold him, but not nigh: there shall come a Star out of Jacob, and a Sceptre shall rise out of Israel, and shall smite the corners of Moab, and destroy all the children of Sheth.

Job 38:
[6] Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
[7] When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Lucifer was cast down to Earth. Renamed.
The Word of God - Became revealed:
His STAR -
The BRIGHT and morning star -

Matt 2:
[2] Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.

Isa 14;
[12] How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
[13] For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
[14] I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

^ Lucifers LIE...
^ A LIE against Gods Word IS KILLING of Gods Word...
^ Lucifer was the First LIAR and First KILLER of Gods Word.
^ Lucifer The Devil, a Murderer from the Beginning

John 8:
[44] Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Rev 22
[16] I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

TRANSGRESSION OF MAN-KIND, began with the female first, then ... then, the male.

However, God Named the male and female ADAM. The male named the female (ie Eve).

Gen 5:
[2] Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

 

[robert derrick]

Kill the Umpire!
Kill the bad translaters !!

I dont believe translators are supposed to be umpires, as in settling disputes. They should be more like pizza boxes. Just deliver the pizza as it is and let the buyers eat.

Or like children. Better to See what is written in your own language, but not heard about their own ideas.

Is hemlock from Socrates or The Eiger Sanction?

 

[Hemlock]

Socrates.

Who was called the atheist who only believed in one God.
When handed the cup of hemlock, he asked if he could pour some out as a libation to any God - but they said he had to drink the entire prescribed dose.

I like the idea of translators as pizza boxes!

 

[robert derrick]

TRANSGRESSION OF MAN-KIND, began with the female first, then ... then, the male.

Eve was the only one deceived in the transgression (1 Tim 2:14). Adam knew better. Some think this means the she was the only one in the transgression, being deceived. Mythologists likewise hold woman as responsible for evil in the world (Pandora). The first transgression is called Adam's transgression (Rom 5:14), because he knew better and so was the greater offender (John 19:11). But she does appear to be the more dominant of the two.

The first transgression was preceded by the first error of ministry, adding to God's Word, and the serpent knew it. The question was about what God had said. He never said the fruit could not be touched. Eve may well have come up with that one, after Adam ministered to her the commandment of the Lord, which he heard from the Lord personally, before Eve was made.

'Safety rules' for the weak of conscience are fine to provide no occasion to the flesh (Rom 13:14). Just don't make the mistake of believing they are the Commandments of the Lord. Especially dont preach them to others. The very mighty 'holiness Christian' types think they are showing how strong they are by their weakness and fondness for an abundance of 'zero tolerance' rule making. (Taste not, touch not, handle not (Col 2:21))

Your posts are heavy with scriptural cosmology. I need time to look at them more closely to see what you are getting at. Nice challenge. Thanks.

 

[Taken]

Eve was the only one deceived in the transgression (1 Tim 2:14). Adam knew better. Some think this means the she was the only one in the transgression, being deceived. Mythologists likewise hold woman as responsible for evil in the world (Pandora). The first transgression is called Adam's transgression (Rom 5:14), because he knew better and so was the greater offender (John 19:11). But she does appear to be the more dominant of the two.

The first transgression was preceded by the first error of ministry, adding to God's Word, and the serpent knew it. The question was about what God had said. He never said the fruit could not be touched. Eve may well have come up with that one, after Adam ministered to her the commandment of the Lord, which he heard from the Lord personally, before Eve was made.

'Safety rules' for the weak of conscience are fine to provide no occasion to the flesh (Rom 13:14). Just don't make the mistake of believing they are the Commandments of the Lord. Especially dont preach them to others. The very mighty 'holiness Christian' types think they are showing how strong they are by their weakness and fondness for an abundance of 'zero tolerance' rule making. (Taste not, touch not, handle not (Col 2:21))

Your posts are heavy with scriptural cosmology. I need time to look at them more closely to see what you are getting at. Nice challenge. Thanks.

Gen 3:
[3] But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

Lucifer's First Lie - was Against Gods Word, (killing of Gods Word), while Lucifer was in Heaven, revealed in Isaiah.

Satan's First Lie - On Earth, spoken to mankind, was in the Garden, spoken to the woman.

Satan's
[4] And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Gods Order IS God, Angels, man, woman, child.
The Order reveals; Level of Power; Strongest to Weakest.

The Lesson, is:

Satan's "cunningness", is to seek, entice, connive, tempt (with lies), the Weak.

The Weak; thereafter, "USE" a multitude of "tactics", to "connive, tempt," the strong...
(In my own verbiage, I call them foot-soldiers for Satan.)
(Men in wealth, & position, trick the weaker...
Teachers (position), trick the weaker...
Thieves, gangs, trick the weaker...
Bully kids, trick the weaker...
Woman, beauty, sex, gender, trust...
Intelligence measuring...
Physical ailment...
Mental ailment...
Minority race...
Poorness...
On and on...
....
Bottom line...
God provided ALL with means... for good use.
Satan provokes trickery to acquire what another has... for wickedness.

Knowledge - God has good provisions.
Knowledge - Not good for you exists.
Knowledge - Learn the good First.
Knowledge - Thereafter understand How to defeat detrimental effect of a Tempter.
Knowledge - man & female designed to reproduce WEAK children.
Knowledge - Parents "mimic" God. Simple instructions TO the Weak, WHILE, teaching them "good".

Simple Direction - Don't eat. Don't touch.
Simple Result for Disobeying - Die.

Those teachings have Nothing to do with,
Wealth, World Power, World Position, Measured IQ, male or female...
It is a Direction TO parents...
In a Home...
Preparation of Good...
Before releasing them Into the World...
When the child, refuses Direction...
Let them go out into the World...
Face the World, good and evil...and freely choose their own way, and consequences, responsibility for "THEIR" choices.

The Lesson is revealed in Genesis...
God was teaching Good.
They were IN Gods Garden.
They...disobeyed.
First the female, then the male.
The female FOCUSED her attention ON the Serpent. She looked, She listened, She had a conversation, She responded to the Serpents LIE, She reached out, She took the fruit, She ate, She offered the fruit to the male, "She said to the male..."it was GOOD". <--- the female's (footsoldiering) temptation to the male.
The male 'trusted the female", and did also take, and eat.

Were they "forgiven" ?
My opinion is "YES".
Because, (later we learn), Blood of an animal, in ancient history, sufficed to be used for SIN atonement.
God, made clothing for the male and female, of animal skins...which means an animal was slain.
The clothing, covered their Flesh. The Flesh, body, IS the Sin of man, and a shame unto man.
God Covered their Shame of their Flesh.
God sent them OUT of His Garden.
It's a FORESHADOW...

Pss 32:
[1] Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.

Rom 4:
[7] Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

Is covered...temporary. (OT offering)
Are covered...permanent. (NT offering)

Inanutshell -
Every man-kind of creature, begins in a weak state.
They "taste", "partake", "experience", good and evil.
They have "freewill", to consume (eat the good) or spit it out.
They have "freewill", to consume (eat the evil) or spit it out.
ON That ^ hangs the WHOLE deciding Factor...OF GODS "DIVISION".

* God Created and Immediately began DIVIDING, things.
* Gen 1:
[4] And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

* Jesus Reiterated, Division Among People.
Luke 12:
[51] Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:
John 7:
[43] So there was a division among the people because of him.

* Bottom line - "no fence-sitters...with or without";
Matt 12:[30] He that is not with me is against me...

Gen 3: 12, 13, 14
12 - the man confessed...woman gave to him, (reason) he ate.
13 - the woman confessed...serpent tricked her (excuse) she ate.
14 - Serpent made no confession.

Gen 3: 15, 16, 17
15: Serpent Punishment - eternal enmity of Serpents seed and womans seed.
16: woman's punishment - conception, delivery painful. Subservant to husband.
17: Earth's punishment - cursed.
17: man's punishment - work the cursed Earth, in sorrow.

Interesting:
the ORDER of "offense"
the ORDER of "investigating", Asking.
the ORDER of "confession"
the confession with "excuse"
the "failure of" confession
the "ORDER of" punishment handed out
the "severity of" punishment

A FORESHADOW;
Confession ... for wrong doing Acceptable.
Confession ... with EXCUSE Acceptable (but Excuse carries no weight).
Non Confession ... is NOT Acceptable, to BY-Pass Punishment, AND Punishment IS Greater (permanent).

Forgiveness...does not mean, avoiding particular punishments FOR a wrong doing.

Adam, Eve, the Serpent...all had a part in defying Gods Word. All received a punishment. Adam and Eve's confessions made their punishment temporary. The Serpent has a permenant punishment to come into fruition.

I don't argue over who is to blame, but rather look at the Order of things, (the Lesson, the foreshadowing) and Who is most forthright, regardless of the consequence.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Gary Urban]

Alot said there.
1. On day 3 pride of Lucifer discovered? I have heard that Satan's fall as lightening (Luke 10:18 ) was between Vs 1 and 2.
2. And His glory departed and corruption began? I thought corruption on earth began with Adam's transgression?
3. In Hebrews 6, there is controversy over what is 'impossible'. Some say it is impossible for those tasted of heavenly gif, or been saved, to fall away. But Paul says there first shall be a falling away (of believers?) before the man of sin is revealed (2 Thess 2:3). The context rather is that if a believer truly falls away and crucifies Christ afresh to himself, then it is impossible to renew repentance. Even as Esau found no place of repentance after selling out his birthright. (Heb 12:17)

Yes sorry a lot I tend to ramble.

There seems to be a couple steps in coruption.

I would offer Satan fell from deceiving all the nations because of the first century reformation .This is when the veil was rent the sign of circumission there was no Jewish King sitting in the Holy of Holies. The promise of Joel came, a new kingdom of priest men and women of all nations going out into the world with the gospel.

The temple made with human hands “the abomination of desolation” having been made desolate when Jesus declared it desolation walking out (Mathew 23) .

Using believers as temples not made with human hands from all the nations in the world. That fall is spoken of in Revelation 20:5

Ezekiel 28 reveals that because of the beauty of the glorious creation (God’s glory had not departed.) Lucifer the guarding spirit who was to protect it from lies by reflecting the glory as a morning star .Witneses to the light.

Stars like the moon reflecs the source of light. Satan in pride rather than protect the glory of God he attempted to be the source of light or truth. “I will ascend to the clouds I will be like God .The source of light.

Ezekiel 28 ;13-14 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee

This was before what I call The Holy Spirit switched on the temporal light source (Sun and Moon) most likely on day three, in that way three is used throughout the Bible in parables to indicate the end of the matter.. the beginning of .Day 4

Geneisis 1: 14-18 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

Time under the Sun had begun winding down .The reference under the sun is used that way throughout the bible (the end of time) . Leaving us with a living hope of the true glory in the new heavens and earth as it was the first 3 days. .

There will be no temple , no need for the Sun and the Moon. The source of light the father and the Son re-establishing as it was the shred glory in the beginning before the fall.

Jesus the bright and morning star (Light and reflection) is revealed as the glory of the two. The Father and Son.

Lucifer failed to protect as a representation of the glory .Again as the moon having no light is the reflection .In the same way used with the father and Son. The Son of God our high Priest continually did not fail.

Revelation 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

One source of glorious light

1 John 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

Adam and Eve mankind are used as a example weakness of the corrupted dying flesh.

They failed by giving over the things of faith to what the eyes . the three avenues of the false light Lucifer . (1 John 2:16)

They lost their garden place of contentment the glory of their opportunity reflecting the glory of God as witnesses had departed and they knew they were naked.

The then corrupted earth was challenged by the spirit of lies, the father of lies. He being a murder from the beginning demonstrated his hatred for the word of God enticing Cain to put a stop to the apostle Abel sent with the gospel .Cain buried him under to establish the foundation of paganism (out of sight out of mind no God in their heart) .Cain the First recorded martyr .

When sentencing Cain for his murderous act of Abel .Cain wanted to die. God had increased the rate corruption suffering a lesser yield. .Christ increased work load.

Cain said it was more than he could bear. Which I think it was designed to do. Only those yoked with the Spirit of grace like Abel could bear. Christ working in us making our labor lighter, and sleep sweeter.

Cain it would seem wanted to end it all. But the Holy Spirit revealed “the mark of His living abiding Word” .It will not return void of the purpose he sends it . If any man kill Cain they jeopardize their own life. In that way we are to buy the truth of the gospel and not sell it as worthless as did Cain or Esau seeing no value in the unseen things of God sold his birth rite for a cup of goat soup.

Genisis 4: 6-15 And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him. And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him. And the Lord said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper? And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground. And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand; When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth. And Cain said unto the Lord, My punishment is greater than I can bear. Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me. And the Lord said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

(666) The mark of his word. It will not retun void.

 

[robert derrick]

Socrates.

Who was called the atheist who only believed in one God.
When handed the cup of hemlock, he asked if he could pour some out as a libation to any God - but they said he had to drink the entire prescribed dose.

I like the idea of translators as pizza boxes!

I'm glad you agree. I think the same for preachers and ministers. I truly believe most divisions, strife, and confusion in the body is due to ministers, many of them very sincere, who unnecessarily insert themselves into the work that only God should be doing:

"So then neither is he that plants any thing, neither he that waters; but God that gives the increase." (1 Cor 3:7)

The minister not anything, or nothing but a carrying device for God.

They get the notion in their heads that they are supposed to be doing more, such as 'following up', or even worse 'getting them in' to the church. They call it 'discipling' the believers. However, we read in Ezekiel the full extent of God's expectation from His ministers: to preach only what he says (2:8), and then get out of the way. In fact, God foretold Ezekiel that they would not believe and obey. (3:7) If Ezekiel thought he was responsible to God for what the hearers do about the Word preached, then it wouldn't make any sense at all. Why bother?

I have learned the hard way to be very strict about this because of my past very damaging association with a real so-called 'evangelical' church group. In the end, more harm is done to the body than good.

(That was a pretty effort by Socrates to minimalize the dose of hemlock. But unfortunately the keepers weren't buying it...)

 

[Gary Urban]

Look forward to it. Especially about my last few lines. TO me it's just a logical thing. Maybe something on the Nicolaitans. Nothing is said about them directly in Scripture, but I believe a possible inroad would be looking at Nicolas the proselyte in Acts 6.

It would seem that way. Yes it is the trial of our new born again faith. .The believing power of the gospel that works in us with us.

In regard to that un-redeemed mankind is reckoned as faithless, no faith not little none. Believers are reckoned as little faith as in He our faithful Creator must increase as we continually decrease.

Faith the treasure we guard in our new hearts that we have in these earthen bodies (2 Corinthians 4:18)

We defend it as putting on the armorof God and not taking it off .It defends us as just as the Father defends the Son two working as one.

No armor for the rear. He is our rear guard.

Nicola tans interesting doctrine .I would offer.


The sect or denomination called the Nicolaitans under the leadership of Nicolas.

They were glorying in the flesh of their leader who did preach the gospel. It would seem some trusted in Nicolas the apostle,( sent one) who was preaching the gospel.

We are informed that we can plant the incorruptible seed the word of God and water it with the doctrines of God that fall like rain But Christ does the forming of new spirit life and a new desire. The apostles/prophets are considered as nothing, having little faith coming from the same storeroom of faith. . . “The glory of God”

The Holy Spirit repenting them wooing them by reminding them of first work Christ performed in them, their first love or experience hearing and believing God not seen

They returned hopefully with Nicolas.

A loving warning to all the denominations to put on the prescribed armor. What I would call the 20/20 safety glasses

(2 Corinthians 4:18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Again to all believers 7 churches the loving warning. . Let him who has ears to hear the understanding of our invisible God the faithful and true one . . . to him alone all glory is due.

 

[robert derrick]

Lucifer's First Lie - was Against Gods Word, (killing of Gods Word), while Lucifer was in Heaven, revealed in Isaiah.

Satan's First Lie - On Earth, spoken to mankind, was in the Garden, spoken to the woman. Ye shall not surely die:

Satan's "cunningness", is to seek, entice, connive, tempt (with lies), the Weak.

1. Satan's first lie on earth was a half-lie. He did directly contradict God in 'you shall not surely die'. But now the conversation had turned from what God said, to what Eve said, and so as pertaining to 'neither shall you touch it', the serpent was correct that they would not surely die. The devil's subtilty is half-lies and half-truths. If he had just come out and plainly said you will not die for eating it, they would have most likely rebuked him for it.

2. I believe it is all important for believers to understand that the first transgression, Adam's transgression, was proceeded by the first error of ministry. Yes, we are warned not to transgress God's command, but I believe it is clear that much transgression by believers is a direct result of false ministry. False prophets, apostles, teachers, and christs have been the greatest source of destruction in God's house and church, with the most amount of condemnation and warning from God. Afterall, she is called Babylon 'the Great'.

The first half-lie of the devil on earth was preceded by the first half-truth of the woman. The question before them was 'what did God say'. The answer of 'not eat of it, neither touch it' was only half true. One of the two, apparently Eve, added to His commandment 'neither shall you touch it', and the serpent had her. He used her own words against her. She then proceeded to transgress His commandment, not by touching it but by eating it. Why did she eat it in direction contradiction to God's command? Perhaps because she saw there was no death in touching it, and she believed 'not touching it' was part of God's command; therefore she was able to believe God must be lying also about not eating it.

I believe that when Eve reached out to take hold of the fruit, she was testing God's Word on the matter by touching it first. No death there, so no death in eating. That is the real danger of adding our, or others' own personal rules and things to God's Word, as though God actually said it Himself. Afterall, we are supposed to be living by faith in God and His Word. If we believe a lie about His Word, then our faith in Him will be corrupted, and our living for Him will then be corrupt. If we are living by faith...

I call it the sea-saw effect. If you add to, you will take away, because what goes up must come down.