Does Daniel 11 Describe King Herod and His Dynasty?

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Exegesis

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Apparently we agree that "time of the end" does not have to mean something eschatological? I think in Dan 12 we have two different references, the 1st to the eschatological "time of the end" and the 2nd to Antiochus 4. The 1290 days is different than the 1260 days given in Revelation in regard to the Antichrist. Looking at some of the commentaries, the 1290 days appear to identify more with Antiochus 4 than with the time of Antichrist, whose reign is said to be strictly 1260 days.

But I don't think there's any question that the 1st reference, Dan 12.7, is to the eschatological time of the end, when Antichrist reigns for a "time, times, and half a time"-- 3.5 years, or 1260 days.

Just for the record, I strongly disagree with the above, not that I am trying to debate you. I think we all know that most of us here will not be changing our minds anytime soon.

That is why I was hoping to at least see where we all are with regards to Daniel 11 specifically. If we can find some common ground, then there is hope to get things further sorted out.

Like I said, most folks seem to agree on the first dozen or so verses. So why is it that everyone here is so afraid to continue with the rest of the verses when they are so sure that they have it all figured out? It should be an easy task. I already know the answer.

How can anyone here make the bold claim that they have Daniel 11:31 figured out?

Daniel 11:31 "And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate."

Again I ask, how can anyone here make the bold claim that they have Daniel 11:31 figured out when they are not even able to get the rest of the verses interpreted properly? I'm not trying to be mean, but it is clear that none of you know what you are talking about. Yet, there you go... bla bla bla, as if God is looking down at you and smiling and saying "Well done faithful servant!"

Some of you have no business teaching others when you are barely on the milk.

The challenge stands to all of you here: Prove your work or admit you are in over your head.
 
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Randy Kluth

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Just for the record, I strongly disagree with the above, not that I am trying to debate you. I think we all know that most of us here will not be changing our minds anytime soon.

That is why I was hoping to at least see where we all are with regards to Daniel 11 specifically. If we can find some common ground, then there is hope to get things further sorted out.

Like I said, most folks seem to agree on the first dozen or so verses. So why is it that everyone here is so afraid to continue with the rest of the verses when they are so sure that they have it all figured out? It should be an easy task. I already know the answer.

How can anyone here make the bold claim that they have Daniel 11:31 figured out?



Again I ask, how can anyone here make the bold claim that they have Daniel 11:31 figured out when they are not even able to get the rest of the verses interpreted properly? I'm not trying to be mean, but it is clear that none of you know what you are talking about. Yet, there you go... bla bla bla, as if God is looking down at you and smiling and saying "Well done faithful servant!"

Some of you have no business teaching others when you are barely on the milk.

The challenge stands to all of you here: Prove your work or admit you are in over your head.
Sounds like a "sour lemon" response with a twist. I don't have any troubles with Dan 11. The chapter mentions a series of kings from Syria and Egypt, ending with Antiochus 4 who plays a very serious role in Israel's history leading up to the Messiah. I have no problems with it at all. You're seriously mistaken in your assessment of how others feel about this.
 

TribulationSigns

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One of the main goals for this thread was to see if the people on this website, that teach about the Abomination of Desolation, actually understand Daniel 11 enough to be qualified to do so.

Says the self-appointed gatekeeper of prophecy—Mr. Exegesis himself. How noble of you to test everyone else's qualifications while parading your own assumptions as gospel truth. Bravo..

The thread has turned out exactly as predicted. Not a single person here can correctly interpret, verse by verse, line by line, precept upon precept, what Daniel is trying to teach us. Yet, they act as if their interpretation of the Abomination of Desolation is without error.

Oh, the irony—Mr. Exegesis claims to love truth, yet the moment he's corrected with actual Scripture, he suddenly wants nothing to do with it. Guess 'receiving the love of the truth' is optional when it challenges your pet interpretations.
It is astonishing the level of hubris some folks have here. There is hardly anything more pathetic than ignorance combined with arrogance.

Aw, do you need a box of tissues? Must be tough when your little history-based fairy tale gets challenged by actual Scripture. Don’t worry, facts can be scary at first.

If someone cannot prove their research, than it is not worth considering. Again, not a single person here has proven what they preach is Biblical.

And neither have you. I haven’t even unpacked the full scope of Daniel 11 or Daniel 8 yet—but go ahead, keep assuming you're the only one here capable of proving anything with the Bible. That kind of arrogance is the mother of all error. :p
 

Douggg

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And yet neither you or anyone here can prove what you claim using Scripture. It is all just parroting what someone else said.

I am still having a go at it, and who knows, maybe I will fail. But at least I have enough sense not to teach something that I myself have not proven.
Hi Exegesis,

I don't know what you mean by parroting what someone else said.

That Antiochus IV Epiphanes committed the abomination of desolation of Daniel 11:31 is a matter of historical record from sources like wikipedia on Antiochus IV Epiphanes.

Daniel 11 does not begin the end times until Daniel 11:36 with Daniel 11:35 being the transition to the end times verse.
 

Wish-it

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Just for the record, I strongly disagree with the above, not that I am trying to debate you. I think we all know that most of us here will not be changing our minds anytime soon.

That is why I was hoping to at least see where we all are with regards to Daniel 11 specifically. If we can find some common ground, then there is hope to get things further sorted out.

Like I said, most folks seem to agree on the first dozen or so verses. So why is it that everyone here is so afraid to continue with the rest of the verses when they are so sure that they have it all figured out? It should be an easy task. I already know the answer.

How can anyone here make the bold claim that they have Daniel 11:31 figured out?



Again I ask, how can anyone here make the bold claim that they have Daniel 11:31 figured out when they are not even able to get the rest of the verses interpreted properly? I'm not trying to be mean, but it is clear that none of you know what you are talking about. Yet, there you go... bla bla bla, as if God is looking down at you and smiling and saying "Well done faithful servant!"

Some of you have no business teaching others when you are barely on the milk.

The challenge stands to all of you here: Prove your work or admit you are in over your head.
Surely Dan 11.31 is one of the more obvious ones.
*DISCLAIMER* - If you believe that the phrase 'time of the end' in Daniel 11:40 is referring to the future, then this thread is not for you.



This is more of a 'Preterist' perspective.

I found these sets of videos that interprets the later verses of Daniel 11 as pointing to King Herod and his dynasty. I'm going to post them here for those of you that are not convinced that it's all about Antiochus. Part 5 is where the Herod portion begins.



Gabriel and Daniel will stand down.
 

Randy Kluth

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Dan 11.21 “He will be succeeded by a contemptible person who has not been given the honor of royalty. He will invade the kingdom when its people feel secure, and he will seize it through intrigue. 22 Then an overwhelming army will be swept away before him; both it and a prince of the covenant will be destroyed. 23 After coming to an agreement with him, he will act deceitfully, and with only a few people he will rise to power. 24 When the richest provinces feel secure, he will invade them and will achieve what neither his fathers nor his forefathers did. He will distribute plunder, loot and wealth among his followers. He will plot the overthrow of fortresses—but only for a time.

This is Antiochus 4 who seized control of the Syrian throne from his brother's son when his brother, Seleucus 4 died. It was a manipulated coup.

25 “With a large army he will stir up his strength and courage against the king of the South. The king of the South will wage war with a large and very powerful army, but he will not be able to stand because of the plots devised against him. 26 Those who eat from the king’s provisions will try to destroy him; his army will be swept away, and many will fall in battle. 27 The two kings, with their hearts bent on evil, will sit at the same table and lie to each other, but to no avail, because an end will still come at the appointed time. 28 The king of the North will return to his own country with great wealth, but his heart will be set against the holy covenant. He will take action against it and then return to his own country.

The "time of the end" here is established to be the end of Antiochus' oppression of Jerusalem. Initially Antiochus set forth to establish his control over Egypt by conquering Egypt. Later he goes to Egypt to establish a covenant agreement with his nephew, the king of Egypt.

My assumption is that at this point Antiochus goes home, having acquired wealth, and wishes to promote Hellenism, or paganism, in Jewish worship. 1st Jason obtains the high priesthood by bribing Antiochus. Then Menelaus bribes higher and displaces Jason. Both sought to appeal to Antiochus by promoting Hellenism, forbidden to the Jews by God.

29 “At the appointed time he will invade the South again, but this time the outcome will be different from what it was before. 30 Ships of the western coastlands will oppose him, and he will lose heart. Then he will turn back and vent his fury against the holy covenant. He will return and show favor to those who forsake the holy covenant.

Antiochus hears that his covenant with the Egyptian king had been betrayed and returns to attack Egypt. But he is stopped by threat of the Romans. That's when Antiochus' anger was vented at the Jews, whose former high priest, Jason, overthrew Antiochus' chosen high priest, Menelaus. This is where the "Abomination of Desolation" takes place, as Antiochus profanes the temple and murders thousands of faithful Jews. His chosen high priest, Menelaus, had been chosen to supervise a Hellenization, or paganization, of Israel's religion.

30 Ships of the western coastlands will oppose him, and he will lose heart. Then he will turn back and vent his fury against the holy covenant. He will return and show favor to those who forsake the holy covenant.

This is a reiteration of what had just been stated, that Antiochus heard of the rebellion in Egypt and invades Egypt. This is when he heard of the Jewish rebellion against his chosen high priest and acts against the holy covenant in Israel.

31 “His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation. 32 With flattery he will corrupt those who have violated the covenant, but the people who know their God will firmly resist him.
33 “Those who are wise will instruct many, though for a time they will fall by the sword or be burned or captured or plundered. 34 When they fall, they will receive a little help, and many who are not sincere will join them. 35 Some of the wise will stumble, so that they may be refined, purified and made spotless until the time of the end, for it will still come at the appointed time.


So all this is the fulfillment of the "time of the end," which had been established as the terminal point of Antiochus' misdeeds.

Then we get the end of chapter 11, where the event is seemingly emphasized, by revisiting the major points of this history of Antiochus' reign.

36 “The king will do as he pleases. He will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will say unheard-of things against the God of gods. He will be successful until the time of wrath is completed, for what has been determined must take place. 37 He will show no regard for the gods of his ancestors or for the one desired by women, nor will he regard any god, but will exalt himself above them all. 38 Instead of them, he will honor a god of fortresses; a god unknown to his ancestors he will honor with gold and silver, with precious stones and costly gifts. 39 He will attack the mightiest fortresses with the help of a foreign god and will greatly honor those who acknowledge him. He will make them rulers over many people and will distribute the land at a price.

This is a greater description of the "abomination of desolation" when Antiochus' visits his wrath upon Israel after learning that his chosen high priest had been overthrown. He altered the typical Syrian worship to reflect his own choice of idolatry, and used this to profane Israel's worship.

40 “At the time of the end the king of the South will engage him in battle, and the king of the North will storm out against him with chariots and cavalry and a great fleet of ships.

This is after Antiochus in Syria hears of the Egyptian rebellion against him. It is a reiteration of verse 29. But it is also an overview of the wealth Antiochus had amassed and the authority he exercised. The Roman resistance is not this time referred to.

40 He will invade many countries and sweep through them like a flood. 41 He will also invade the Beautiful Land. Many countries will fall, but Edom, Moab and the leaders of Ammon will be delivered from his hand. 42 He will extend his power over many countries; Egypt will not escape.

This is an expression of the extent of his power when he attacks Israel. By that point he had conquered Egypt and associated countries. And after abusing Israel he continued to go after other countries, such as Persia. But this is where the "time of the end" happens, after all of these successes.

43 He will gain control of the treasures of gold and silver and all the riches of Egypt, with the Libyans and Cushites in submission. 44 But reports from the east and the north will alarm him, and he will set out in a great rage to destroy and annihilate many. 45 He will pitch his royal tents between the seas at the beautiful holy mountain. Yet he will come to his end, and no one will help him.

Hearing of Israel's rebellion against his chosen high priest, and hearing about Persian threats, Antiochus sets up his general's tent at Jerusalem. Then he goes off to fight in Persia and ends up dying on the way back. That is the "time of the end."

Michael arises at this point to defend Israel, which begins with the Maccabean resistance and the rise of Roman control over the region. That initiates the period of "great tribulation" for Israel, when Rome defeats Jerusalem and destroys the temple. This is the "Great Tribulation" Jesus referred to in his Ollivet Discourse, as Luke indicates armies surround Jerusalem and the Jews are sent into a long exile until Messiah returns (Luke 21).
 

Douggg

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31 “His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation. 32 With flattery he will corrupt those who have violated the covenant, but the people who know their God will firmly resist him.
33 “Those who are wise will instruct many, though for a time they will fall by the sword or be burned or captured or plundered. 34 When they fall, they will receive a little help, and many who are not sincere will join them. 35 Some of the wise will stumble, so that they may be refined, purified and made spotless until the time of the end, for it will still come at the appointed time.


So all this is the fulfillment of the "time of the end," which had been established as the terminal point of Antiochus' misdeeds.
Hi Randy, verse 35 transitions to the time of the end. Antiochus IV, I agree did commit the historic abomination of desolation of his day in Daniel 11:31. But Antiochus IV did not live in the time of the end.

Verse 36 picks up at the time of end with the beast-king of Revelation 13. That he will have no regard for the God of his fathers indicates that he will be a Jew. "God of his fathers" is an expression for "the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob".

36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

The battles in Daniel 11:40-44 will be near the end of the 7 years and are a prelude to Armageddon. Armageddon in Revelation 16:16 is when the kings of the earth unite to prepare to make war on Jesus and His army of heaven (Revelation 19:19).

prelu to armageddon.jpg

The Daniel 11:40-44 attacks on the beast near the end of the 7 years will be because he will be directing all the middle east oil to his western alliance of nations. As those attacks are taking place, the sixth seal event of Revelation 6 will suddenly take place, and the wold will see Jesus in heaven sickle in hand. That will cause the nations to stop their attacks on the the beast king of the west, and unite together in Revelation 16:16 and prepare to make war on Jesus and his army (Revelation 19:19).

Then in Daniel 11:45 is when the beast-king will meet his end on the temple mount at Jesus's return.

45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

The glorious holy mountain is a referral to the temple mount.


between the seas.jpg

Revelation 19.jpg
 
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Randy Kluth

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Hi Randy, verse 35 transitions to the time of the end. Antiochus IV, I agree did commit the historic abomination of desolation of his day in Daniel 11:31. But Antiochus IV did not live in the time of the end.
Yes, your interpretations are valid but different than mine. I only wish to point out our differences. Others will have to decide which version is more plausible. You say Antiochus did not live in the time of the end. I'm saying that the "time of the end" is being defined as the end of Antiochus 4 and his oppression of the Jews. So clearly, from my point of view Antiochus 4 lived up to the time of the end, because his life ended at the time of his end.
Verse 36 picks up at the time of end with the beast-king of Revelation 13. That he will have no regard for the God of his fathers indicates that he will be a Jew. "God of his fathers" is an expression for "the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob".
I identify the "God of his fathers" not as the Jewish God, but rather, as the Syrian god. Antiochus exchanged the Syrian god for a Roman god, Jupiter, a "god of fortresses, power, and war."
36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.
Here, Antiochus exalts himself over the God of the Jews, along with all other gods other than his own chosen deity, exemplified in both Jupiter and in his own self-deification.
37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

The battles in Daniel 11:40-44 will be near the end of the 7 years and are a prelude to Armageddon. Armageddon in Revelation 16:16 is when the kings of the earth unite to prepare to make war on Jesus and His army of heaven (Revelation 19:19).
Yes, you leap ahead to the endtimes, which you believe is referred to as "the time of the end." I see 36 through to the end of the chapter as just being a reiteration of Antiochus 4's exploits and "end." It is immediately after this, in ch. 12, that we read of the "Great Tribulation," which Jesus described as the time beginning with the fall of Jerusalem by the Romans (Luke 21). To insert the endtimes into ch. 11 and before reference to 70 AD seems like a disruption of the flow of the prophecy, in my opinion.
 
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CTK

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For what it is worth.....

The book of Daniel is extremely difficult to understand and interpret. And chapter 11 clearly surpasses the other 11 chapters... it is on the 100 floor while the others are near the street level.

But it is about the Messiah, His church, the appropriation of His church, the coming of the little horn who will continue until the end. The kingdoms of the Medes and Persians AND the transition to his 4 generals are quickly dispensed with by the end of 11:4. There will be no further discussion on them. And now, God will continue with His plan of salvation that reveals His prohecies after the cross.

In chapter 2, God gave us His blueprint of His plan of restoration and salvation for His people and their return to Jerusalem. His plan would show the travel of His people from their exile to Babylon through the kingdoms (structure) and through the most important prophecy in Daniel - the 70 weeks of years prophecy of chapter 9.

So Daniel is about this path back to Jerusalem and their restoration. It culminates in the full restoration of His people, Jerusalem, the ceremonies, the sabbatical cycles, the 7 feast days, etc. They are now completely back home sitting quite comfortably by the end of the 483 year of the 490 years prophecy. However, we certainly know they are held captive within the 4th kingdom beast of pagan Rome.

Then we find the cross in chapter 9, and then we move on to chapter 11 - this entire chapter except for 11:1-4 which puts the other kingdoms of the metal man behind us, brings us to the time after the cross to the little horn rising to the top of the new / replaced 4th beast kingdom of Rome.... which will become known as papal Rome.
 

Wish-it

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For what it is worth.....

The book of Daniel is extremely difficult to understand and interpret. And chapter 11 clearly surpasses the other 11 chapters... it is on the 100 floor while the others are near the street level.

But it is about the Messiah, His church, the appropriation of His church, the coming of the little horn who will continue until the end. The kingdoms of the Medes and Persians AND the transition to his 4 generals are quickly dispensed with by the end of 11:4. There will be no further discussion on them. And now, God will continue with His plan of salvation that reveals His prohecies after the cross.

In chapter 2, God gave us His blueprint of His plan of restoration and salvation for His people and their return to Jerusalem. His plan would show the travel of His people from their exile to Babylon through the kingdoms (structure) and through the most important prophecy in Daniel - the 70 weeks of years prophecy of chapter 9.

So Daniel is about this path back to Jerusalem and their restoration. It culminates in the full restoration of His people, Jerusalem, the ceremonies, the sabbatical cycles, the 7 feast days, etc. They are now completely back home sitting quite comfortably by the end of the 483 year of the 490 years prophecy. However, we certainly know they are held captive within the 4th kingdom beast of pagan Rome.

Then we find the cross in chapter 9, and then we move on to chapter 11 - this entire chapter except for 11:1-4 which puts the other kingdoms of the metal man behind us, brings us to the time after the cross to the little horn rising to the top of the new / replaced 4th beast kingdom of Rome.... which will become known as papal Rome.
But surely Gen 16.11,12 and Gen 27.39,40 are the origins of where the end must originate. The brothers of Isaac and Jacob. Ishmael and Esau (Edom). This is a family feud, Obadiah explains it further, Malachi 1 also. Jacob and Esau were even fighting in the womb, Gen 25.23.
Ishmaels blessing says "he will live in hostility towards all his brothers". Those brothers are the countries surrounding Israel today, wishing to destroy Israel completely, Psalm 83.4 "Come, let us destroy them as a nation." Zech 12.4 "I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling."
 

CTK

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But surely Gen 16.11,12 and Gen 27.39,40 are the origins of where the end must originate. The brothers of Isaac and Jacob. Ishmael and Esau (Edom). This is a family feud, Obadiah explains it further, Malachi 1 also. Jacob and Esau were even fighting in the womb, Gen 25.23.
Ishmaels blessing says "he will live in hostility towards all his brothers". Those brothers are the countries surrounding Israel today, wishing to destroy Israel completely, Psalm 83.4 "Come, let us destroy them as a nation." Zech 12.4 "I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling."
I am confused. I was speaking of Daniel, want are you talking about?
 

Douggg

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Yes, your interpretations are valid but different than mine. I only wish to point out our differences. Others will have to decide which version is more plausible. You say Antiochus did not live in the time of the end. I'm saying that the "time of the end" is being defined as the end of Antiochus 4 and his oppression of the Jews. So clearly, from my point of view Antiochus 4 lived up to the time of the end, because his life ended at the time of his end.

I identify the "God of his fathers" not as the Jewish God, but rather, as the Syrian god. Antiochus exchanged the Syrian god for a Roman god, Jupiter, a "god of fortresses, power, and war."

Here, Antiochus exalts himself over the God of the Jews, along with all other gods other than his own chosen deity, exemplified in both Jupiter and in his own self-deification.

Yes, you leap ahead to the endtimes, which you believe is referred to as "the time of the end." I see 36 through to the end of the chapter as just being a reiteration of Antiochus 4's exploits and "end." It is immediately after this, in ch. 12, that we read of the "Great Tribulation," which Jesus described as the time beginning with the fall of Jerusalem by the Romans (Luke 21). To insert the endtimes into ch. 11 and before reference to 70 AD seems like a disruption of the flow of the prophecy, in my opinion.
Hi Randy, yes, we disagree over what is meant by time of the end in Daniel 11:35. And thanks for expressing your view without the inflammatory remarks that some of the other posters here use. In his post #69, @CTK made the valid point... "The book of Daniel is extremely difficult to understand and interpret. And chapter 11 clearly surpasses the other 11 chapters... it is on the 100 floor while the others are near the street level."

I think @CTK in his post #69 is also expressing the SDA view because if his comments about pagan Rome and papal Rome.

I am all for everyone expressing their view and interpretations as long as it is done in a civil manner - which makes the posts of others more pleasant to read. There is going to be agreements and disagreements over what the text means. So let's all keep reading and studying.
 
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Wish-it

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I am confused. I was speaking of Daniel, want are you talking about?
I don't consider the fourth beast in Daniel to be Rome. The fourth beast is unnamed. And God has allowed us to have our own thoughts on it. Much of Christaindom has presumed, I believe wrongly, that the fourth beast is Rome. But is it? Surely the origins of all things scriptural begin in the early books of scripture. I believe that is the case. And we should be searching scripture for answers, history not so much. Scripture confirms scripture. Where did Jesus and the apostle refer for answers to questions, Scripture every time. Isaiah 46.10 I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. Jer 33.3, Habukkuk 2.2, Amos 3.7
 
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CTK

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I don't consider the fourth beast in Daniel to be Rome. The fourth beast is unnamed. And God has allowed us to have our own thoughts on it. Much of Christaindom has presumed, I believe wrongly, that the fourth beast is Rome. But is it? Surely the origins of all things scriptural begin in the early books of scripture. I believe that is the case. And we should be searching scripture for answers, history not so much. Scripture confirms scripture. Where did Jesus and the apostle refer for answers to questions, Scripture every time. Isaiah 46.10 I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. Jer 33.3, Habukkuk 2.2, Amos 3.7
Okay, I see and thanks. Would you mind telling me the identities of the 4 kingdoms or kings within chapters 2, 7 and 8 please. And, does the fact that the 4th kingdom beast in those chapters (IMO) represents pagan Rome for many reasons, but perhaps the most obvious is this is when the Messiah would arrive - during this kingdom. Also, the end of the 70 weeks of years prophecy totalling 490 years which began in 457 BC came to an end 3.5 years after the cross. That the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome was also in power when the Temple was destroyed in 70 AD.... thanks so much.
 

Randy Kluth

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Hi Randy, yes, we disagree over what is meant by time of the end in Daniel 11:35. And thanks for expressing your view without the inflammatory remarks that some of the other posters here use. In his post #69, @CTK made the valid point... "The book of Daniel is extremely difficult to understand and interpret. And chapter 11 clearly surpasses the other 11 chapters... it is on the 100 floor while the others are near the street level."

I think @CTK in his post #69 is also expressing the SDA view because if his comments about pagan Rome and papal Rome.

I am all for everyone expressing their view and interpretations as long as it is done in a civil manner - which makes the posts of others more pleasant to read. There is going to be agreements and disagreements over what the text means. So let's all keep reading and studying.
I've long recognized your cordial spirit, which should be brought to light. It is far more important to act like a Christian than to try to "be right" on doctrine and interpretations of prophecy. You set a good example, and I wish to do similarly (though not always successful).

I also wish to say that I've kind of misrepresented how casually I take interpreting Dan 11. I've said I don't have any problem with it. In reality, I've long had problems with it and still do. It just doesn't phase me much because my own interpretation satisfies me...at least for the present. ;)
 
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Wish-it

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Okay, I see and thanks. Would you mind telling me the identities of the 4 kingdoms or kings within chapters 2, 7 and 8 please. And, does the fact that the 4th kingdom beast in those chapters (IMO) represents pagan Rome for many reasons, but perhaps the most obvious is this is when the Messiah would arrive - during this kingdom. Also, the end of the 70 weeks of years prophecy totalling 490 years which began in 457 BC came to an end 3.5 years after the cross. That the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome was also in power when the Temple was destroyed in 70 AD.... thanks so much.
I don't go all with the fourthbeast being Rome at all. I consider it to be an Islamic coalition, yet to be formed from out of Javan (presumably Turkey) (Ai search of Erdogan shows he has called for an Islamic coalition 3 times this year, to counter Israel). The 4 kingdoms will probably consist of four larger nations surrounding Israel. The main ones mentioned in Isaiah, Ezek and Jer. In our day, possibly Iran, Syria (Especially now) Iraq, Turkey.
Relevance to Rome, in my view nil. An SDA and other influences over the past 150 plus years.
 

CTK

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I don't go all with the fourthbeast being Rome at all. I consider it to be an Islamic coalition, yet to be formed from out of Javan (presumably Turkey) (Ai search of Erdogan shows he has called for an Islamic coalition 3 times this year, to counter Israel). The 4 kingdoms will probably consist of four larger nations surrounding Israel. The main ones mentioned in Isaiah, Ezek and Jer. In our day, possibly Iran, Syria (Especially now) Iraq, Turkey.
Relevance to Rome, in my view nil. An SDA and other influences over the past 150 plus years.
I understand but that is why I mentoned the timing of the Messiah, the tie in to the 7 weeks prophecy, the tie in to the 70 AD destruction.. They all took place during the early reign of pagan Rome... do you see that? Thanks.
 

Wish-it

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I understand but that is why I mentoned the timing of the Messiah, the tie in to the 7 weeks prophecy, the tie in to the 70 AD destruction.. They all took place during the early reign of pagan Rome... do you see that? Thanks.
No, I realise it appears that way, but if you do, and the beginning of the seven years is so precise, which i don't believe can be confirmed by scripture, what is the event of the last 3.5 years after the cross?
 

Randy Kluth

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No, I realise it appears that way, but if you do, and the beginning of the seven years is so precise, which i don't believe can be confirmed by scripture, what is the event of the last 3.5 years after the cross?
My thought is that the 70th Week was only meant to be a Half-Week.
 

Randy Kluth

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Okay, I see and thanks. Would you mind telling me the identities of the 4 kingdoms or kings within chapters 2, 7 and 8 please. And, does the fact that the 4th kingdom beast in those chapters (IMO) represents pagan Rome for many reasons, but perhaps the most obvious is this is when the Messiah would arrive - during this kingdom. Also, the end of the 70 weeks of years prophecy totalling 490 years which began in 457 BC came to an end 3.5 years after the cross. That the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome was also in power when the Temple was destroyed in 70 AD.... thanks so much.
My thought has been that the 70th Week is not said to be a full Week--only that is the last Week among 70 Weeks. That last Week is the 70th Week whether it is half a Week or a full Week. I think the 70th Week was fulfilled as a Half-Week.