In Daniel 8, 11, and 12, is A4E meant? Or is a future anti-christ meant?

[Douggg]

No and no it will not be 7 years.

How about a chart for Ezekiel 39 ? Made one for Ezekiel 39, yet ? What program are you using to make your charts ? I use Corel Paintshop Pro Ultimate, 2023.

 

[Earburner]

Luke 19:44 refers to the city of Jerusalem. Luke 19:41. God did not say that the city will never be built again. Obviously it has been rebuilt. But you are correct that the temple will never be built again. Here's what happened the last time they tried in 363 AD.

Sozomen (ca. A.D.375-447)
"Ecclesiastical History"
Book V, Chapter XXII

Though the emperor [Julian the Apostate] hated and oppressed the Christians, he manifested benevolence and humanity towards the Jews. He wrote to the Jewish patriarchs and leaders, as well as to the people, requesting them to pray for him, and for the prosperity of the empire. In taking this step he was not actuated, I am convinced, by any respect for their religion; for he was aware that it is, so to speak, the mother of the Christian religion, and he knew that both religions rest upon the authority of the patriarchs and the prophets; but he thought to grieve the Christians by favoring the Jews, who are their most inveterate enemies. But perhaps he also calculated upon persuading the Jews to embrace paganism and sacrifices; for they were only acquainted with the mere letter of Scripture, and could not, like the Christians and a few of the wisest among the Hebrews, discern the hidden meaning.

Events proved that this was his real motive; for he sent for some of the chiefs of the race and exhorted them to return to the observance of the laws of Moses and the customs of their fathers. On their replying that because the temple in Jerusalem was overturned, it was neither lawful nor ancestral to do this in another place than the metropolis out of which they had been cast, he gave them public money, commanded them to rebuild the temple, and to practice the cult similar to that of their ancestors, by sacrificing after the ancient way. The Jews entered upon the undertaking, without reflecting that, according to the prediction of the holy prophets, it could not be accomplished. They sought for the most skillful artisans, collected materials, cleared the ground, and entered so earnestly upon the task, that even the women carried heaps of earth, and brought their necklaces and other female ornaments towards defraying the expense. The emperor, the other pagans, and all the Jews, regarded every other undertaking as secondary in importance to this. Although the pagans were not well-disposed towards the Jews, yet they assisted them in this enterprise, because they reckoned upon its ultimate success, and hoped by this means to falsify the prophecies of Christ. Besides this motive, the Jews themselves were impelled by the consideration that the time had arrived for rebuilding their temple. When they had removed the ruins of the former building, they dug up the ground and cleared away its foundation; it is said that on the following day when they were about to lay the first foundation, a great earthquake occurred, and by the violent agitation of the earth, stones were thrown up from the depths, by which those of the Jews who were engaged in the work were wounded, as likewise those who were merely looking on. The houses and public porticos, near the site of the temple, in which they had diverted themselves, were suddenly thrown down; many were caught thereby, some perished immediately, others were found half dead and mutilated of hands or legs, others were injured in other parts of the body. When God caused the earthquake to cease, the workmen who survived again returned to their task, partly because such was the edict of the emperor, and partly because they were themselves interested in the undertaking. Men often, in endeavoring to gratify their own passions, seek what is injurious to them, reject what would be truly advantageous, and are deluded-by the idea that nothing is really useful except what is agreeable to them. When once led astray by this error, they are no longer able to act in a manner conducive to their own interests, or to take warning by the calamities which are visited upon them.

The Jews, I believe, were just in this state; for, instead of regarding this unexpected earthquake as a manifest indication that God was opposed to the re-erection of their temple, they proceeded to recommence the work. But all parties relate, that they had scarcely returned to the undertaking, when fire burst suddenly from the foundations of the temple, and consumed several of the workmen.

This fact is fearlessly stated, and believed by all; the only discrepancy in the narrative is that some maintain that flame burst from the interior of the temple, as the workmen were striving to force an entrance, while others say that the fire proceeded directly from the earth. In whichever way the phenomenon might have occurred, it is equally wonderful. A more tangible and still more extraordinary prodigy ensued; suddenly the sign of the cross appeared spontaneously on the garments of the persons engaged in the undertaking. These crosses were disposed like stars, and appeared the work of art. Many were hence led to confess that Christ is God, and that the rebuilding of the temple was not pleasing to Him; others presented themselves in the church, were initiated, and besought Christ, with hymns and supplications, to pardon their transgression. If any one does not feel disposed to believe my narrative, let him go and be convinced by those who heard the facts I have related from the eyewitnesses of them, for they are still alive. Let him inquire, also, of the Jews and pagans who left the work in an incomplete state, or who, to speak more accurately, were able to commence it.

I had read that account many years ago.
As to the details accounted for about the Jews being unable to rebuild their temple, it is apparent that God is still not allowing them to rebuild the temple ever again, "even until [upto] the consummation".
 Thanks for refreshing my memory of it. The account of it in "Ecclesiastical History"
convinced me of the veracity of God's hatred against the temple for all time.

 

[covenantee]

I had read that account many years ago.
As to the details accounted for about the Jews being unable to rebuild their temple, it is apparent that God is still not allowing them to rebuild the temple ever again, "even until [upto] the consummation".

They won't ever be rebuilding it period. Nothing to do with any consummation.

 

[Earburner]

They won't ever be rebuilding it period. Nothing to do with any consummation.

I agree! The consummation is a faction in its own right. It will be the end of all things existent on the earth as well as the earth itself. 2 Peter ch. 3

 

[Davidpt]

When do you plan to address the fact that you turn a determined 70 weeks (490 years) time period during which the things listed in Daniel 9:24 would be fulfilled into at least a 2,500 year time period during which those things would be fulfilled instead? Are you just afraid to address that? There is no basis whatsoever for inserting a 2,000+ year gap into the 70 weeks. There's no way around that. That's something invented by dispensationalism that you have bought into.

As to verse 24 it is not my position that none of it has been fulfilled. It is my position that some of it hasn't, such as bringing in everlasting righteousness in light of what 2 Peter 3:13 records. And such as the transgression concerning the holy city, in light of 70 AD, and in light of this same Jerusalem is on the map again. And in light of Zechariah 14:11, that until that is true first, in the meantime the transgression concerning the holy city is not finished yet. which then means the last 2 things listed in verse 24 are yet to be fulfilled as well--- to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. As to this--to anoint the most Holy--I'm not certain what that involves and might look like. All I know is, it is the last thing listed. Therefore, there has to be a reason why it is listed last.


This, OTOH--- and to make reconciliation for iniquity--was fulfilled in the midst of the 70th week. And maybe this as well---and to make an end of sins. Everything else in verse 24 requires that the 70 weeks determined have to be fulfilled first. The midst of the 70th week is not the entire 70 weeks. In order for the 70 weeks to be finished entirely, it for one has to finish the transgression concerning the holy city. One cannot have that transgression already finished, then some decades later have this same holy city being attacked and destroyed. That hardly paints a picture of a holy city where the transgression pertaining to it was finished earlier.

It is not involving dispensationalism in the sense they have these things in involving dispensationalism, if I have everlasting righteousness not coming in until there is a NHNE first, in light of 2 Peter 3:13. Nor is it involving dispensationalism in the sense they have these things involving dispensationalism, if I have the transgression pertaining to the holy city not being finished until Zechariah 14:11 is true first, and that I have Zechariah 14:11 meaning the new Jerusalem in the NHNE since that is the only Jerusalem that can possibly fit--And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

As in, no more utter destruction means exactly that, pertaining to Jerusalem. As in, never again ever for forever, once Zechariah 14:11 is fulfilled.

And BTW, I do take the NJ to be meaning a literal place and that it will be located in the same region the current Jerusalem is located, once it comes down from God out of heaven.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This, OTOH--- and to make reconciliation for iniquity--was fulfilled in the midst of the 70th week. And maybe this as well---and to make an end of sins.

How can you think "to make an end of sins" is fulfilled when you take everything else in the verse so literally in terms of there having to be literal everlasting righteousness brought in and a literal finishing of all transgression? With the way you understand the fulfillment of everlasting righteousness brought in, it would not be consistent for you to believe "to make an end of sins" is fulfilled since you seem to associate bringing in everlasting righteousness with sin being removed with only righteousness remaining.

Everything else in verse 24 requires that the 70 weeks determined have to be fulfilled first. The midst of the 70th week is not the entire 70 weeks. In order for the 70 weeks to be finished entirely, it for one has to finish the transgression concerning the holy city. One cannot have that transgression already finished, then some decades later have this same holy city being attacked and destroyed. That hardly paints a picture of a holy city where the transgression pertaining to it was finished earlier.

I can barely follow what you're saying here. How exactly do you think the transgression will be finished? You don't seem to understand that only Jesus can fulfill all of the things listed in Daniel 9:24. You seem to think that some of it can be fulfilled apart from what Jesus accomplished long ago, as if what He did is not necessary for the fulfillment of some of Daniel 9:24, which is not the case. When He said "It is finished" just before He died, that included finishing the transgression. Only He could make an end of sins (take away the penalty for sin) and finish the transgression by sacrificing Himself on the cross.

Isaiah 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

The fulfillment of "to make an end of sins" is very closely related to the fulfillment of "to finish the transgression" and "to make reconciliation for iniquity" and "to bring in everlasting righteousness". Christ's death accomplished all of these things.

It is not involving dispensationalism in the sense they have these things in involving dispensationalism, if I have everlasting righteousness not coming in until there is a NHNE first, in light of 2 Peter 3:13.

You, like Amillennialists, believe that the NHNE will be ushered in when Jesus returns. How can you think that everlasting righteousness is brought in in a literal sense at that time, when, in your Premil view, wickedness will still exist at that point? How can Satan's little season of wickedness occur after everlasting righteousness has literally been brought in? That makes no sense.

Nor is it involving dispensationalism in the sense they have these things involving dispensationalism,

What I'm saying you agree with in relation to dispensationalism is inserting a gap of time within the determined 70 weeks. Which results in your view having at least around 2,500 years being determined from the time the first week began until the 70th week ends to fulfill the six things listed in Daniel 9:24. But, it says 70 weeks, which we agree equates to 490 years, were determined to fulfill those things, not 2,500+ years. You don't seem to understand that Daniel 9:24 indicates that from the beginning of the time period referenced in the verse, the things listed in the verse were determined all to be fulfilled within 490 years of the day that time period (70 weeks - 490 years) started.

if I have the transgression pertaining to the holy city not being finished until Zechariah 14:11 is true first, and that I have Zechariah 14:11 meaning the new Jerusalem in the NHNE since that is the only Jerusalem that can possibly fit--And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

As in, no more utter destruction means exactly that, pertaining to Jerusalem. As in, never again ever for forever, once Zechariah 14:11 is fulfilled.

What exactly is your understanding of the new Jerusalem? Do you see it as being an earthly city? And what are you saying exactly in relation to transgression pertaining to the new Jerusalem? Please clarify how exactly you see Zechariah 14:11 being fulfilled.

 

[Davidpt]

How can you think "to make an end of sins" is fulfilled when you take everything else in the verse so literally in terms of there having to be literal everlasting righteousness brought in and a literal finishing of all transgression? With the way you understand the fulfillment of everlasting righteousness brought in, it would not be consistent for you to believe "to make an end of sins" is fulfilled since you seem to associate bringing in everlasting righteousness with sin being removed with only righteousness remaining.


I can barely follow what you're saying here. How exactly do you think the transgression will be finished? You don't seem to understand that only Jesus can fulfill all of the things listed in Daniel 9:24. You seem to think that some of it can be fulfilled apart from what Jesus accomplished long ago, as if what He did is not necessary for the fulfillment of some of Daniel 9:24, which is not the case. When He said "It is finished" just before He died, that included finishing the transgression. Only He could make an end of sins (take away the penalty for sin) and finish the transgression by sacrificing Himself on the cross.

Isaiah 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

The fulfillment of "to make an end of sins" is very closely related to the fulfillment of "to finish the transgression" and "to make reconciliation for iniquity" and "to bring in everlasting righteousness". Christ's death accomplished all of these things.


You, like Amillennialists, believe that the NHNE will be ushered in when Jesus returns. How can you think that everlasting righteousness is brought in in a literal sense at that time, when, in your Premil view, wickedness will still exist at that point? How can Satan's little season of wickedness occur after everlasting righteousness has literally been brought in? That makes no sense.


What I'm saying you agree with in relation to dispensationalism is inserting a gap of time within the determined 70 weeks. Which results in your view having at least around 2,500 years being determined from the time the first week began until the 70th week ends to fulfill the six things listed in Daniel 9:24. But, it says 70 weeks, which we agree equates to 490 years, were determined to fulfill those things, not 2,500+ years. You don't seem to understand that Daniel 9:24 indicates that from the beginning of the time period referenced in the verse, the things listed in the verse were determined all to be fulfilled within 490 years of the day that time period (70 weeks - 490 years) started.


What exactly is your understanding of the new Jerusalem? Do you see it as being an earthly city? And what are you saying exactly in relation to transgression pertaining to the new Jerusalem? Please clarify how exactly you see Zechariah 14:11 being fulfilled.

Let's try this route for a moment and then see if we can get anywhere here. For the sake of argument, regardless that you obviously disagree, let's assume this is the last thing fulfilled in the list--to anoint the most Holy. And one is to make sense of that, exactly how, assuming, for example, Stephen's stoning parallels the end of the 70 weeks? The point being, if indeed to anoint the most holy is the last thing to be fulfilled, and surely it is, in that case, in no way shape or form does the conclusion of the 70 weeks fit the first century since there is zero in the first century that can explain to anoint the most holy if that is last on the list to be fulfilled.

The way you and others try and get around this, let's make the last thing in the list to be meaning the first thing in the list that is fulfilled. Why not make this the first thing that gets fulfilled if none of these things matter-- to seal up the vision and prophecy? Imagine shutting up the vision and prophecy, meaning all things have been fulfilled, thus no longer any need of the prophecy, before the 70th week is even fulfilled first? Which means until the 70th week is fulfilled first, therefore, the 70 weeks can't be fulfilled in the meantime. Which means--to seal up the vision and prophecy--fits at the end of the 70 weeks and that this part is the last thing listed for a reason---to anoint the most Holy.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Let's try this route for a moment and then see if we can get anywhere here.

Sure. Don't address my points or anything. That's just too much to expect from you. Instead of actually addressing my points, you just try to change the narrative instead. Typical. I can't take you seriously, David. You rarely directly address my points and you expect me to address all of yours. This has been how it is for many years at this point. You don't know how to have a normal discussion.

For the sake of argument, regardless that you obviously disagree, let's assume this is the last thing fulfilled in the list--to anoint the most Holy. And one is to make sense of that, exactly how, assuming, for example, Stephen's stoning parallels the end of the 70 weeks? The point being, if indeed to anoint the most holy is the last thing to be fulfilled, and surely it is, in that case, in no way shape or form does the conclusion of the 70 weeks fit the first century since there is zero in the first century that can explain to anoint the most holy if that is last on the list to be fulfilled.

Where does Daniel 9:24 say that there is a last thing to be fulfilled in the list and it has to be fulfilled at the very end of the 70th week?

The way you and others try and get around this, let's make the last thing in the list to be meaning the first thing in the list that is fulfilled. Why not make this the first thing that gets fulfilled if none of these things matter-- to seal up the vision and prophecy? Imagine shutting up the vision and prophecy, meaning all things have been fulfilled, thus no longer any need of the prophecy, before the 70th week is even fulfilled first? Which means until the 70th week is fulfilled first, therefore, the 70 weeks can't be fulfilled in the meantime. Which means--to seal up the vision and prophecy--fits at the end of the 70 weeks and that this part is the last thing listed for a reason---to anoint the most Holy.

Nowhere does it indicate that the six things listed had to be fulfilled in chronological order. This is all you have to address all the points I made in my post? Are you just afraid to actually address them or what? Why do you think I should be the only one directly addressing any points being made in this discussion? Imagine if I did that to you. I guarantee you would not accept that.

The prophecy says 70 weeks, which we agree is 490 years, were determined for the six things listed in Daniel 9:24 to be fulfilled. That means those things were to be fulfilled within 490 years from the time of the beginning of the 70 weeks which is indicated to be when the command to rebuild and restore Jerusalem was made. But, your view stretches it out to at least 2,500 years or so being determined for those things to be fulfilled instead. Why will you not address this? Instead of addressing any of the arguments I make like this, you just ignore them. I can only assume you know you can't refute them and you try to find some way around them instead.

You also didn't bother addressing what I said about how it doesn't make sense to believe that making reconciliation for iniquity and making an end of sins is fulfilled while at the same time saying bringing in everlasting righteousness and finishing the transgression is not fulfilled. You're failing to see the close connection between all those things and that they have to be fulfilled at the same time because of that. Why won't you address anything I said in my post directly? Until you do so, I can't take anything you say seriously.

 

[Davidpt]

Where does Daniel 9:24 say that there is a last thing to be fulfilled in the list and it has to be fulfilled at the very end of the 70th week?

Why don't you make your points easier to address for me? Why do you have to overwhelm me with 500 points to address? Maybe you can easily address 500 points someone makes and don't mind doing so, but I sure can't, and I do mind trying to do so. Meaning I can't do it per typing but it doesn't mean I can't do it face to face, if the environment was something such as that. It's not like I'm a fast typer like you are. My mother was stricken with rheumatoid arthritis before she died. Arthritis runs in our family except I'm not at the point she was, at least not yet anyway. I type with only one finger. Try doing that and let's see how many points you care to address made by others. I don't think you even understand the word empathy, or if you do, in my case empathy doesn't count, because if you can address 500 points someone makes, then so should I be able to do it, regardless, according to your thinking.

Which means I probably shouldn't even post the following, but I will ,regardless.

Do you then think Jesus is a place? After all, there are several translations that translate Daniel 9:24 like such, most holy place rather than most holy.

Daniel 9:24 - Compare Bible Verse Translations

Compare Bible translations of Daniel 9:24 using all available Bible versions and commentary. "“Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and...

www.biblestudytools.com

And what if they are correct to translate it in that manner? What then? How does that fit your position that to anoint the most holy is fulfilled first?

Then you accuse me of anytime I'm absent for awhile it's because I'm trying to avoid certain issues brought up, so i disappear for awhile in order to avoid those things. That's not even close to the truth. Unless I am posting in this forum, i don't even think about any of these discussions otherwise. I have personal things at home in my life I am concerned about, which have zero to do with anyone in here. And look how much I had to type out here just to explain these things. Now imagine I need to address 500 points on top of that, keeping in mind I have some disabilities that limit me from doing what you are able to easily do, address 500 points someone made.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Why don't you make your points easier to address for me? Why do you have to overwhelm me with 500 points to address?

LOL. As if you don't make a lot of different points in many of your posts? How about you address at least one of my points? You don't have to address them all, but you didn't even attempt to address one of them. That's not how discussions work. You think you don't have to address any of my points while fully expecting me to address all of yours. No, I don't accept that.

Also, I just looked again at the post I made where you didn't address anything I said specifically (post #506). I did not make an overwhelming amount of points in that post. I don't know what you're talking about. Not even close. But, you couldn't even address one of them? Why not?

Maybe you can easily address 500 points someone makes and don't mind doing so, but I sure can't, and I do mind trying to do so. Meaning I can't do it per typing but it doesn't mean I can't do it face to face, if the environment was something such as that. It's not like I'm a fast typer like you are. My mother was stricken with rheumatoid arthritis before she died. Arthritis runs in our family except I'm not at the point she was, at least not yet anyway. I type with only one finger. Try doing that and let's see how many points you care to address made by others. I don't think you even understand the word empathy, or if you do, in my case empathy doesn't count, because if you can address 500 points someone makes, then so should I be able to do it, regardless, according to your thinking.

Which means I probably shouldn't even post the following, but I will ,regardless.

Do you then think Jesus is a place? After all, there are several translations that translate Daniel 9:24 like such, most holy place rather than most holy.

Daniel 9:24 - Compare Bible Verse Translations

Compare Bible translations of Daniel 9:24 using all available Bible versions and commentary. "“Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and...

www.biblestudytools.com

And what if they are correct to translate it in that manner? What then? How does that fit your position that to anoint the most holy is fulfilled first?

Then you accuse me of anytime I'm absent for awhile it's because I'm trying to avoid certain issues brought up, so i disappear for awhile in order to avoid those things. That's not even close to the truth. Unless I am posting in this forum, i don't even think about any of these discussions otherwise. I have personal things at home in my life I am concerned about, which have zero to do with anyone in here. And look how much I had to type out here just to explain these things. Now imagine I need to address 500 points on top of that, keeping in mind I have some disabilities that limit me from doing what you are able to easily do, address 500 points someone made.

I don't make anywhere near 500 points for one thing. It's an extreme exaggeration. But, I like to be thorough. So what?

Even if I make one or two points in response to something you say when you come here, you don't address it and you disappear for some time. I fully understand that we all have other things going on besides this and, in your case, you have trouble with typing, but if you're going to post something you should wait until you have time to respond after someone responds to what you've said.

For example, you recently made a claim that how I was interpreting Matthew 23:39 couldn't be true and I responded to what you said while showing how you were taking the verse out of context. So, my response didn't contain a bunch of different points about different things, it was just a response to what you were saying about that verse only. Yet, you never replied back. Why did you start that discussion with me if you had no intention of following through on it? This kind of thing has happened many times.

 

[Douggg]

his is all you have to address all the points I made in my post?

Be specific. What points ? List any points you wish others to respond to by giving it a number...for example.....

1. I, Spiritual Israelite, can't make charts.

2. I, Spiritual Israelite, view specific time frames, such as 42 months, 1260 days, etc, as metaphoric.

3. I, Spiritual Israelite, don't understand what Gabriel meant by "to seal up the vision and prophecy".

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Be specific. What points ?

The points I made in post #506, as I said. You can see the points I made by reading that post. I assume you can read?

List any points you wish others to respond to by giving it a number...for example.....

1. I, Spiritual Israelite, can't make charts.

2. I, Spiritual Israelite, view specific time frames, such as 42 months, 1260 days, etc, as metaphoric.

3. I, Spiritual Israelite, don't understand what Gabriel meant by "to seal up the vision and prophecy".

You, Douggg, don't understand anything in relation to Bible prophecy.

You, Douggg, try to make up new definitions for words like "generation" and "after" to make scripture say what you want it to say.

You, Douggg, make useless charts that don't accurately portray Bible timelines.

You, Douggg, are not someone that anyone should take seriously.

 

[Douggg]

The points I made in post #506, as I said. You can see the points I made by reading that post. I assume you can read?


You, Douggg, don't understand anything in relation to Bible prophecy.

You, Douggg, try to make up new definitions for words like "generation" and "after" to make scripture say what you want it to say.

You, Douggg, make useless charts that don't accurately portray Bible timelines.

You, Douggg, are not someone that anyone should take seriously.

So, now, you understand that putting your points in the form of a list makes them stand out better and more clear.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So, now, you understand that putting your points in the form of a list makes them stand out better and more clear.

LOL. You are hilarious, Douggg. What do you find difficult about the way I presented my points and asked Davidpt questions in post #506? Why are you unable to understand normal adult discussion without charts and without things having to be spelled out to you in lists and so on? Davidpt did not present his points that I was responding to in a list, but I don't see you telling him he should update his post and put his points in a list.

 

[Douggg]

LOL. You are hilarious, Douggg. What do you find difficult about the way I presented my points and asked Davidpt questions in post #506? Why are you unable to understand normal adult discussion without charts and without things having to be spelled out to you in lists and so on?

Charts reflect organized thoughts. That does not mean that any chart is automatically correct by it's structure and content.

Also, all of us should make an effort to communicate as clear as possible.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Charts reflect organized thoughts. That does not mean that any chart is automatically correct by it's structure and content.

Also, all of us should make an effort to communicate as clear as possible.

I communicate clear enough for everyone here except, apparently, you. I'm not going to change my communication style just for you.

 

[Prycejosh1987]

The following are then my conclusions. And that I used ChatGPT as a writing assistant, so to speak. I broke it down into 7 sections. Actually, ChatGPT did that for me. Starting with part 1. Basically, my view is that a literal temple is not meant in Daniel 8, 11, nor 12.

I believe it would be a literal temple. Daniel and John had the same dream and vision. Except the angel in Johns vision explains things to John. Daniel is just explained apart of the dream. John goes into more detail. But John and Daniel had the same dream and vision. Of the Antichrist kingdom anyway. It has to be a literal temple that the antichrist is going to rule over and declare himself to god from. Everyone knows Jesus is going to return.

 

[Earburner]

Charts reflect organized thoughts. That does not mean that any chart is automatically correct by it's structure and content.

Also, all of us should make an effort to communicate as clear as possible.

You have not understood that God's thoughts and ways are not from our realm. Isa. 55:8-9 and 1 Cor. ch. 2.
To have the understanding of God means that He communicated His Truth from His "hidden wisdom" to you by the Holy Spirit and not through charts by "the wisdom of men".

 

[Douggg]

You have not understood that God's thoughts and ways are not from our realm. Isa. 55:8-9 and 1 Cor. ch. 2.
To have the understanding of God means that He communicated His Truth to you by the Holy Spirit and not through charts by the wisdom of men.

A person cannot make an accurate time line chart without God's help in understanding what is written in the bible. God is wonderful to them who seek Him and His Truth.

 

[Earburner]

A person cannot make an accurate time line chart without God's help in understanding what is written in the bible. God is wonderful to them who seek Him and His Truth.

When I said in post #518 that God's "thoughts and ways" are not from our realm, I am meaning that even the literal words of the Bible is visibly seen as being that of our own way of communicating.

God had to speak His higher thoughts and ways through the limitations of our lower levels of language in order to communicate to us.
However, His communication cannot be discerned or understood by our frail and weak minds alone. Even though God speaks to us in the languages of our own creation (the Bible), without His Holy Spirit within us, we will receive no knowledge of His from Him.