Does Ephesians 2:20 Prove Cessation of Apostles and Prophets?

[theefaith]

The obvious problem with your logic is that Revelation hasn't been completely fulfilled yet. Just because it was written last doesn't prove cessation. That is a half-baked argument with no truth to it whatsoever, especially because such an ignorant position doesn't consider the fact that the prophets' office also consists of warning about what the scriptures show about the future. There is no better example of this than Christ Himself, since much of His ministry consisted of reinforcing what the OT says about the future.

The sheer absurdity of cessationism lies in the fact that Paul used a present active tense to describe God's activities in regards to where He places certain converts. Just because cessationists haven't seen a prophet, it doesn't mean that this office has ceased to exist. It does however, mean their brand of Christianity is false. As Amos wrote, God does nothing in this world without revealing it to His prophets first. It is just as true now as it was back in Amos' day because God has never changed between then and now.. In fact, i would say it's even more true now that Christ will return in the very near future.

the Bible is not the rule of faith for Christians but the teaching authority of Christ Jn 14:6

The rule of faith for Christians is Jesus Christ Jn 14:6 and His church! Matt 18:17 acts 2:42 1 Tim 3:15

Truth must be revealed by God thru Christ to His church (the apostles Jude 1:3) then must be proposed by the church, (Matt 28:19 gal 3:23) without error by the Holy Spirit! (Jn 16:13)

Christ and His church are one! (Acts 9:4 eph 5:31 Jn 15:1-5)

Rejection of the one true church or its teaching is rejection of Christ and God!

Christ and His church are one! Acts 9:4 eph 5:32 Jn 8:12 & Matt 5:14

Ephesians 5:24
Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ,

1 Thessalonians 2:23 ---> And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God, which is at work in you believers.

2 Thessalonians 2:15 ---> So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.

Luke 10:16 ---> Whoever listens to you listens to me, and whoever rejects you rejects me, and whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.

Hebrews 13:7 ---> Remember your leaders, those who spoke the word of God to you...

 

[theefaith]

The church is the pillar and ground of truth! 1 Tim 3:15

 

[theefaith]

Christ and His church are one!
God cannot reveal error and the church cannot teach error!

True Christians cannot listen to the errors of excommunicated heretics, but we listen faithfully to Christ, in the bosom of holy mother church, the only ark of salvation!
1 pet 3:20-21 matt 18:17 matt 16:18-19 matt 28:19-20 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-23

 

[Hidden In Him]

That there are or are not signs that accompany being an apostle doesn't change the meaning of the word. It's like saying a pedestrian is someone on foot, and someone protests, No, a pedestrian is much more than that, with rights and privledges at intersections and all, but the rights that accompany being a pedestrian don't change the meaning of the word pedestrian.

I dunno, Mark. This sounds like the same kind of position that separates the Baptism in the Holy Spirit from modern Cessationist Christianity. I'd dare say that even separates works from faith. To argue that an "apostle" is anyone who is sent anywhere of God makes it possible for all sorts of people to claim the title of "apostle" falsely. At least many of those who today are calling themselves "apostles" have formable ministries they can show for it. But I've literally seen local programing where a room full of people were going around professing how many "offices" and titles they held, and even the teenagers were professing themselves to be "apostles." We live in a time when people in the church, especially in the States, just love titles; makes them sound important and "anointed." Your position kinda supports and unintentionally endorses this, rather than opposing it.

 

[marks]

I dunno, Mark. This sounds like the same kind of position that separates the Baptism in the Holy Spirit from modern Cessationist Christianity. I'd dare say that even separates works from faith. To argue that an "apostle" is anyone who is sent anywhere of God makes it possible for all sorts of people to claim the title of "apostle" falsely. At least many of those who today are calling themselves "apostles" have formable ministries they can show for it. But I've literally seen local programing where a room full of people were going around professing how many "offices" and titles they held, and even the teenagers were professing themselves to be "apostles." We live in a time when people in the church, especially in the States, just love titles; makes them sound important and "anointed." Your position kinda supports and unintentionally endorses this, rather than opposing it.

Don't discount what's Biblical because there are abuses. Believe me when I tell you this, abuses exist on all sides of this question.

No one calling themself Apostle today manifests the signs of the Apostles then. Not one of them, they are false apostles who claim such grandeur for themselves.

Yes, people love titles, and the fact that Annas and Ciaphas abused their positions didn't invalidate the priesthood, and that some like to parley these titles into their little feifdoms doesn't change the fact that Jesus is still sending His people out today.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I'd dare say that even separates works from faith.

I don't know how you get this, remember, I'm just talking about the word, what it means as a Koine Greek word.

After that we sort out what it means where it's used.

Much love!

 

[Paul Christensen]

That there are or are not signs that accompany being an apostle doesn't change the meaning of the word. It's like saying a pedestrian is someone on foot, and someone protests, No, a pedestrian is much more than that, with rights and privledges at intersections and all, but the rights that accompany being a pedestrian don't change the meaning of the word pedestrian.

Can we understand and show our doctrines without either embellishing or removing from the meanings of the words?

The thing is . . . if you assert that being an "apostle" will necessarily mean that you will have miraculous powers, then you deny the customary meaning of the word itself, in favor of a "technical use" meaning just that one thing.

I happen to think that Jesus is still sending people out, directly, and through assemblies, although there isn't a predominance of "signs and wonders".

By the lack of signs and wonders, are you thinking there are no true apostles today?

Much love!

What we fail to appreciate is that miraculous signs and wonders accompanying the preaching of the Gospel were common-place in the first century. In fact, preaching the Gospel was not genuine unless the signs and wonders were present. That is why Paul had limited results in Athens, because he depended on words of persuasion with no signs and wonders happening. So when he went to Corinth, he was determined not to preach with the enticing words of man's wisdom, but with demonstration and power of the Holy Spirit. The outcome was that a very strong church was planted in Corinth.

Because the ministry of the church has been filtered through more than 1000 years of apostacy, ritual, ceremony and man's tradition and authority, the miraculous has been filtered out. In fact, most of our traditional denominational churches still contain much of the ritual and ceremony of the apostate church. Take the Lord's Supper (Eucharist) for example. In most churches, including Charismatic, it consists of a ceremony involving a small piece of bread and a small shot glass of grape juice or wine. This is merely a continuance of the Roman Catholic method of the Eucharist as part of the Mass. When Paul said of the Corinthians that people were disrespecting the Lord's Supper by getting drunk and being gluttonous, it is difficult to see how that could have happened with just a very small wafer or bit of bread and a communion glass of grape juice or just a sip from the chalice. These days it is not even the Lord's snack, let alone the Lord's Supper! Even our church programmes follow the basic programme of the RCC Mass, where a one man band priest or minister does everything while the congregation is just a passive audience.

So, when we take a realistic look at our churches, and compare them with Paul's description of what the church should be (1 Corinthians 12), then we can know why the signs and wonders and gifts of the Spirit are absent in most churches, and in those churches that claim miracles, the actual evidence doesn't go much further than claims without substance.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Yes, people love titles, and the fact that Annas and Ciaphas abused their positions didn't invalidate the priesthood, and that some like to parley these titles into their little feifdoms doesn't change the fact that Jesus is still sending His people out today.

Yes, but depending on what we teach, we can send out more of the false ones than necessary.

I don't know how you get this, remember, I'm just talking about the word, what it means as a Koine Greek word.

That's the problem. I'm telling you it means more than that. But not a backbreaker, i.e. not worth arguing over, at least for me anyway.

 

[Hidden In Him]

What we fail to appreciate is that miraculous signs and wonders accompanying the preaching of the Gospel were common-place in the first century. In fact, preaching the Gospel was not genuine unless the signs and wonders were present. That is why Paul had limited results in Athens, because he depended on words of persuasion with no signs and wonders happening. So when he went to Corinth, he was determined not to preach with the enticing words of man's wisdom, but with demonstration and power of the Holy Spirit. The outcome was that a very strong church was planted in Corinth.

That's an interesting observation.

Hey Paul, I have a thread you may or may not be interested in. Don't think I've ever read you post on this subject before:

Should Christians Always Be Healed?