Does God care more for himself than he cares for us?

[St. SteVen]

Where does it leave me?

You have read the ECF' on eternal damnation @St. SteVen-correct?

Yes. But I thought you maintained that you "... cannot agree with the ECF in light of what stands written." - post #214
Wouldn't that apply to which ever stance they take? Which stance do you choose biblically? (if you don't mind saying)
I guess you already answered that. Which means you have rejected Annihilation-ism?

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[Johann]

Yes, if at all. (use of ECF' writings) Of which I knew nothing for most of my life. (never discussed at church)
Thanks again for the info.

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You're very welcome, brother.

J.

 

[Johann]

Yes. But I thought you maintained that you "... cannot agree with the ECF in light of what stands written." - post #214
Wouldn't that apply to which ever stance they take? Which stance do you choose biblically? (if you don't mind saying)
I guess you already answered that. Which means you have rejected Annihilation-ism?

[

If they agree on eternal damnation, then I would concur, as Jesus addressed Hell more than any other biblical writer. My stance is that eternal damnation is real and that the wrath of God currently rests upon all unbelievers.
So yes, I reject Annihilation-ism.

J.

 

[St. SteVen]

My stance is that eternal damnation is real and that the wrath of God currently rests upon all unbelievers.

Thanks.
I have more questions, but perhaps this enough.
I wish to preserve the relationship. Needling you with a million questions is probably counter-productive.

Unbelief requires knowledge. What becomes of those with no knowledge?
Perhaps unbelief is not really the deciding factor. ???

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[Johann]

Thanks.
I have more questions, but perhaps this enough.
I wish to preserve the relationship. Needling you with a million questions is probably counter-productive.

Unbelief requires knowledge. What becomes of those with no knowledge?
Perhaps unbelief is not really the deciding factor. ???

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What do you think contributes to the lack of biblical knowledge?

J.

 

[St. SteVen]

What do you think contributes to the lack of biblical knowledge?

Good question.

I believe that Christ went to Hades (the realm of the dead) and preached to the souls there.
And he "took captivity captive". Releasing those souls from Hades.

The canon of scriptures was not completed before the 4th century.
An oral tradition and NT writings were available prior to that to a limited number of individuals.
The gospel began to go out into all the world. The printing press was not invented until the 1500s.
The King James Bible was published in 1611. But only available in English.
Mostly a western world phenomenon. How far-reaching was this?
Worldwide mission societies did not emerge until centuries later.

Consequently, there remains still today unreached people groups. What's the population of China?

Countless billions have gone to the afterlife with no prior knowledge of Christ, or the Bible. IMHO

How will God judge these individuals?
With no prior knowledge, they can't be fairly judged as unbelievers.

Unreached people group​

In Christianity, an unreached people group refers to an ethnic group without an indigenous,
self-propagating Christian church movement. Any ethnic or ethnolinguistic nation without enough
Christians to evangelize the rest of the nation is an "unreached people group".
It is a missiological term used by Evangelical Protestants

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[Bruce-Leiter]

St. SteVen said:
Yup, that is the question few want to consider.
The flip side to the predestination coin. If God elected some to life, then he elected everyone else to destruction.
At least according to mainline Christianity. There is a better view.

Titus 2:11 ESV
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

There is much more than this one verse.
But notice the past tense statement in this one above. Salvation for has already appeared for all people.

The acts of two men were all that was needed to secure salvation for all people. Guess who. ???

Romans 5:18-19 NIV
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

[

You misunderstand the Reformed view, of which I am a part. John Calvin's view of those passages was that, yes, God loved and chose believers to be saved before creation, but he allowed lifelong unbelievers to have it their own way and go to hell. The difference is that it was part of his permitted will, not caused by him. Humans are fully responsible for their lives' results, but God's will guides all events. He permits evil rebellion but actively causes salvation. Both are biblical. Otherwise, you have fatalism, which is unbiblical.

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

What do you think contributes to the lack of biblical knowledge?

J.

Busy lives and failure to study and read the Word of God.

 

[St. SteVen]

You misunderstand the Reformed view, of which I am a part. John Calvin's view of those passages was that, yes, God loved and chose believers to be saved before creation, but he allowed lifelong unbelievers to have it their own way and go to hell. The difference is that it was part of his permitted will, not caused by him. Humans are fully responsible for their lives' results, but God's will guides all events. He permits evil rebellion but actively causes salvation. Both are biblical. Otherwise, you have fatalism, which is unbiblical.

Thanks.
But why are the Elect called the Elect if they weren't elected? (chosen)
And the word "predestined" indicates a choice out of our control.

The Reformed view seems to just be a workaround.

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[St. SteVen]

Busy lives and failure to study and read the Word of God.

How would you reply to post #226?

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[Johann]

How will God judge these individuals?
With no prior knowledge, they can't be fairly judged as unbelievers.

Very simple-

Romans 1:19-20
“For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.”

Psalm 19:1-4
“The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his handiwork. Day to day pours out speech, and night to night reveals knowledge. There is no speech, nor are there words, whose voice is not heard. Their voice goes out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world.”

Acts 14:16-17
“In past generations he allowed all the nations to walk in their own ways. Yet he did not leave himself without witness, for he did good by giving you rains from heaven and fruitful seasons, satisfying your hearts with food and gladness.”

Romans 2:14-15
“For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them.”

John 1:9
“The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world.”
(This indicates that Christ illuminates all people, including unbelievers, with a certain knowledge of God.)

Acts 17:26-27
“And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, that they should seek God, and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us.”

Job 12:7-10
“But ask the beasts, and they will teach you; the birds of the heavens, and they will tell you; or the bushes of the earth, and they will teach you; and the fish of the sea will declare to you. Who among all these does not know that the hand of the Lord has done this? In his hand is the life of every living thing and the breath of all mankind.”

Romans 1:32
“Though they know God’s righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.”

Ecclesiastes 3:11
“He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also, he has put eternity into man's heart, yet so that he cannot find out what God has done from the beginning to the end.”

Titus 2:11
“For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people.”

These verses collectively show that unbelievers have an innate or natural awareness of God, whether through creation, conscience, or the inner testimony of God's nature.

Shalom.
J.

 

[St. SteVen]

Titus 2:11
“For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people.”

These verses collectively show that unbelievers have an innate or natural awareness of God, whether through creation, conscience, or the inner testimony of God's nature.

Are you claiming that salvation is acquired by acknowledging God as creator?
I thought you meant unbelievers who had rejected Christ. ???
You asked about the cause of those who had a "lack of biblical knowledge".

What do you make of this?

Romans 2:14-16 NIV
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law,
do by nature things required by the law,
they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts,
their consciences also bearing witness,
and their thoughts sometimes accusing them
and at other times even defending them.)
16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets
through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

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[Biblepaige]

Awhile ago now this question was asked elsewhere.

One answer I recall was, well of course he does. Care for himself more.

He's so reign after all. He could have not made a forbidden tree. He could have forgiven the first sin. But he didn't.
Because he wanted humans to seek out what is omnipresent and has dominion over all so that we come to know he is there.
And if we don't,he burns us for eternity so we never forget,he's there.

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

Thanks.
But why are the Elect called the Elect if they weren't elected? (chosen)
And the word "predestined" indicates a choice out of our control.

The Reformed view seems to just be a workaround.

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[Bruce-Leiter]

Your words "seems to be" are telling. We need to discover the words' meanings within the context of Scripture, not from our own reason. The choice before creation was by a 3-in-1 God who then created everyone and chose some to belong to him. He could have let us all go to hell, which is where we were all headed. Our destination was truly our fault, but God in his grace and love has rescued believers.

 

[St. SteVen]

Your words "seems to be" are telling. We need to discover the words' meanings within the context of Scripture, not from our own reason. The choice before creation was by a 3-in-1 God who then created everyone and chose some to belong to him. He could have let us all go to hell, which is where we were all headed. Our destination was truly our fault, but God in his grace and love has rescued believers.

No offense, but that logic is crazy talk.

God created humankind to be headed for hell? That's quite a fine plan. (not)
He knew ahead of time the hand-full that would satisfy his unreasonable standard?
Or would comply with his "narrow way" game. (few there be that find it)

You write: "Our destination was truly our fault..." Really? Whose plan was it? Not ours.

Did Jesus die to save us from God?

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[Bruce-Leiter]

No offense, but that logic is crazy talk.

God created humankind to be headed for hell? That's quite a fine plan. (not)
He knew ahead of time the hand-full that would satisfy his unreasonable standard?
Or would comply with his "narrow way" game. (few there be that find it)

You write: "Our destination was truly our fault..." Really? Whose plan was it? Not ours.

Did Jesus die to save us from God?

[

None taken. No, God didn't create humans to go to hell. They decided under Adam to send themselves there by trying to take over the rulership of his universe. That rebellion was their fault and sent them there because of their self-centeredness. We let Satan bamboozle us into imagining that we could rise to God's level, whereas Satan wanted to do that all along. There is a mystery among many mysteries in the Bible that God has his plan for everything and everyone AND that humans are fully responsible for how they live their whole lives. BOTH are true. We can never "satisfy" his standard of perfection; only Jesus satisfied it on our behalf. When logic fails us, the Bible guides us.

 

[St. SteVen]

God didn't create humans to go to hell. They decided under Adam to send themselves there...

Was this clear to Adam in the statement:
"... you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil,
for when you eat from it you will certainly die." - Genesis 2:17 ???

They decided under Adam to send themselves there by trying to take over the rulership of his universe. That rebellion was their fault and sent them there because of their self-centeredness.

Same question.
Seems to me that A&E were oblivious to Satan and his rebellion.

We let Satan bamboozle us into imagining that we could rise to God's level, whereas Satan wanted to do that all along.

Yes, bamboozle.
A&E had no interest in "eating thereof" until they were deceived by the serpent.
They were clueless about the consequences. IMHO

humans are fully responsible for how they live their whole lives.

Agree.
Certainly warrants correction. Eternal punishment is pointless.
Anyone would get the message in ten seconds. Anything beyond that is sadistic torture.

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[Bruce-Leiter]

Was this clear to Adam in the statement:
"... you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil,
for when you eat from it you will certainly die." - Genesis 2:17 ???


Same question.
Seems to me that A&E were oblivious to Satan and his rebellion.


Yes, bamboozle.
A&E had no interest in "eating thereof" until they were deceived by the serpent.
They were clueless about the consequences. IMHO


Agree.
Certainly warrants correction. Eternal punishment is pointless.
Anyone would get the message in ten seconds. Anything beyond that is sadistic torture.

/

(1) They were clear in knowing that God commanded them not to eat the fruit and that they would die if they did. That should've been plenty enough of information for them to obey.
(2) They didn't have to know all that Satan had planned; they only had to know that their disobedience had dire consequences.
(3) You and I don't know what they knew and didn't know. We can't infer anything from the silence of Scripture.
(4) Eternal punishment is consistent with God's quality of justice, which is also eternal along with his love. We don't know whether or not Adam and Eve were saved after that. That's up to God.
I enjoy our conversation. I hope we can do more conversing in the future.

 

[St. SteVen]

(1) They were clear in knowing that God commanded them not to eat the fruit and that they would die if they did. That should've been plenty enough of information for them to obey.

What did they know of death?
I don't think they understood. This was demonstrated in the discussion with the serpent.

--- PARODY ---


Serpent: Did God really say... ?
Eve: He said don't eat and don't touch.
Adam: Oops, my bad, I said don't touch.
Eve: What?! God didn't say that? !!!
Adam: No, I added that because
I know you like to touch things without thinking.
Eve: So, you don't trust me? !!!
Adam: I'm looking out for our best interests. My job.
Eve: I see.
Serpent: Are you going to eat, or not? !!!
Eve: Let me check with the boss. - LOL
Adam: Scram serpent!
Serpent: Hiss... (walks away dejected)
Eve: Hey, let's check out that other tree.
Adam: Good idea!


Indeed.

(2) They didn't have to know all that Satan had planned; they only had to know that their disobedience had dire consequences.

Did they?
God told Adam and Adam told Eve. (with seeming misinformation included)

(3) You and I don't know what they knew and didn't know. We can't infer anything from the silence of Scripture.

True. But where does that leave us?

(4) Eternal punishment is consistent with God's quality of justice, which is also eternal along with his love. We don't know whether or not Adam and Eve were saved after that. That's up to God.

Quality of justice? Eternal torment for a temporal transgression? Where's the quality in that?
Even humans have laws against cruel and unusual punishment. A state of eternal burning is about as cruel as it can get.
Thankfully, humans are incapable of that level of torture. The church used burning at the stake to hurry up God's "justice".

What is the source of salvation?

I enjoy our conversation. I hope we can do more conversing in the future.

Thanks. I'm open to that.
I do weigh online relationships though. At the point that it seems fruitless I back away.
(and all too often WAY beyond the point...) LOL

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