Does God care more for himself than he cares for us?

[Bruce-Leiter]

What did they know of death?
I don't think they understood. This was demonstrated in the discussion with the serpent.

--- PARODY ---


Serpent: Did God really say... ?
Eve: He said don't eat and don't touch.
Adam: Oops, my bad, I said don't touch.
Eve: What?! God didn't say that? !!!
Adam: No, I added that because
I know you like to touch things without thinking.
Eve: So, you don't trust me? !!!
Adam: I'm looking out for our best interests. My job.
Eve: I see.
Serpent: Are you going to eat, or not? !!!
Eve: Let me check with the boss. - LOL
Adam: Scram serpent!
Serpent: Hiss... (walks away dejected)
Eve: Hey, let's check out that other tree.
Adam: Good idea!


Indeed.


Did they?
God told Adam and Adam told Eve. (with seeming misinformation included)


True. But where does that leave us?


Quality of justice? Eternal torment for a temporal transgression? Where's the quality in that?
Even humans have laws against cruel and unusual punishment. A state of eternal burning is about as cruel as it can get.
Thankfully, humans are incapable of that level of torture. The church used burning at the stake to hurry up God's "justice".

What is the source of salvation?


Thanks. I'm open to that.
I do weigh online relationships though. At the point that it seems fruitless I back away.
(and all too often WAY beyond the point...) LOL

[

Basically, I would go with the plain meaning of Scripture without parodies or imagination added. After all, as Paul and Peter both say, it's God's Word to us. I don't want to mess around with it. Why do you have to add to Scripture things that aren't there? The "transgression' was in wanting to rebel against God's place that we humans wanted to take over. It was justice for the self-centeredness (my biblical definition of "sin") that entered humans and pervaded all of our lives.

The Source of our salvation is trusting only in Jesus, who satisfied the Father's justice by dying on our behalf (justification).

You talk about torture. Humans trust in things and people to bring them satisfaction in this life. They want such reliance. So, because they want things their way, God just lets them have their own way by giving them a place where they will be gnashing their teeth because they won't be able to have them. Self-inflicted hell is described by Jesus as burning fire and outer darkness.

I think it's the absence of our so-called gods that we rely on. It's either that or basking in God's powerful presence on the new earth forever. Which do you want?

 

[MA2444]

The way some Christians talk about God, you would think so.

They tell us we are unacceptable to God. That it is only with great difficulty that God loves and tolerates us.

The image of a God that is disappointed with us, because we don't measure up. Shakes His head when he sees us.

An unreasonable expectation that we can never meet. Not accepted for who we are, or where we are at.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This is not what I see in God. I see a loving heavenly Father.

His kids are always welcome in his lap. He's intensely interested in them.

He puts everything aside to listen to them. He glories in their presence.

Can hardly wait to see them again when they return. Delights in them.

There is a line down the center of this post, Which side of the line are you on? Top, or bottom?

What do you mean? Are we on top or bottom of this post?! I suppose technically I'm on bottom (?) of this because I know my Lord to be loving also....but it occurs to me that, that puts us on Top!!
So you din' format us into your question right or something, lol. The goodness of God should have been on top...for it is on top! Look Up He said, for your redemption draweth nigh...(!!!)

 

[MA2444]

Serpent: Did God really say... ?
Eve: He said don't eat and don't touch.

Satan appealed to Eve's vanity, as if she could correct him and teach him something (how smart I am!) and she goes on to exagerate what God said! God didnt tell them not to touch it, so she threw that in too! Silly girl. (Even before we fell!)

 

[St. SteVen]

Why do you have to add to Scripture things that aren't there? The "transgression' was in wanting to rebel against God's place that we humans wanted to take over. It was justice for the self-centeredness (my biblical definition of "sin") that entered humans and pervaded all of our lives.

Aren't you adding to scripture to claim that A&E wanted to "rebel against God's place"?
Where is that in the scripture?

The Source of our salvation is trusting only in Jesus, who satisfied the Father's justice by dying on our behalf (justification).

Really? What about those who never knew of Christ?

You talk about torture. Humans trust in things and people to bring them satisfaction in this life. They want such reliance. So, because they want things their way, God just lets them have their own way by giving them a place where they will be gnashing their teeth because they won't be able to have them. Self-inflicted hell is described by Jesus as burning fire and outer darkness.

No one wants the hell that you claim they want.

I think it's the absence of our so-called gods that we rely on. It's either that or basking in God's powerful presence on the new earth forever. Which do you want?

Are you a JW? I thought you were Calvinist, or Reformed?

[

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

(1) If someone in authority over you commands to you to avoid doing something and you do it, you are in essence replacing that person's authority with your own. That's what rebellion is.
(2) When Adam fell into sin, all of us fell with him. That's the truth Paul presented. Those who never knew about Christ still knew that he was their Creator with the Father and the Spirit and rejected or ignored him (Romans 1:18ff.).
(3) You're right that we don't want the absence of the people and things that we rely on for happiness. That will be hell for them to experience their absence, very sadly.

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

Aren't you adding to scripture to claim that A&E wanted to "rebel against God's place"?
Where is that in the scripture?


Really? What about those who never knew of Christ?


No one wants the hell that you claim they want.


Are you a JW? I thought you were Calvinist, or Reformed?

[

We Reformed people believe that the Bible is clear about our ultimate destination being the new earth of Revelation 21:1, to which the new Jerusalem descends in that chapter. Our theology is far from Jehovah's Witnesses, since they don't have the same God. We believe in the 3-in-1 God of the Bible. They reject him, sadly.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
What about those who never knew of Christ?
No one wants the hell that you claim they want.

We Reformed people believe that the Bible is clear about our ultimate destination being the new earth of Revelation 21:1, to which the new Jerusalem descends in that chapter. Our theology is far from Jehovah's Witnesses, since they don't have the same God. We believe in the 3-in-1 God of the Bible. They reject him, sadly.

What about those who never knew of Christ?
No one wants the hell that you claim they want.

[

 

[St. SteVen]

(1) If someone in authority over you commands to you to avoid doing something and you do it, you are in essence replacing that person's authority with your own. That's what rebellion is.

Yes, there should be consequences. A forever burning hell is overkill. IMHO
And it is contradictory to the other two views of the final judgment.
- Annihilationism
- Universal Redemption

(2) When Adam fell into sin, all of us fell with him. That's the truth Paul presented. Those who never knew about Christ still knew that he was their Creator with the Father and the Spirit and rejected or ignored him (Romans 1:18ff.).

What do you make of this?

Romans 5:18-19 NIV
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

(3) You're right that we don't want the absence of the people and things that we rely on for happiness. That will be hell for them to experience their absence, very sadly.

Sadistic cruelty. Isn't there a better way?

What about those who never knew of Christ?

[

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

Yes, there should be consequences. A forever burning hell is overkill. IMHO
And it is contradictory to the other two views of the final judgment.
- Annihilationism
- Universal Redemption


What do you make of this?

Romans 5:18-19 NIV
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.


Sadistic cruelty. Isn't there a better way?

What about those who never knew of Christ?

[

Accusing God of sadism is a very serious thing. You might rethink your judgment of him. He is a loving God but also a just God. The Bible is clear on both of those qualities.

Yes, there should be consequences. A forever burning hell is overkill. IMHO
And it is contradictory to the other two views of the final judgment.
- Annihilationism
- Universal Redemption


What do you make of this?

Romans 5:18-19 NIV
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.


Sadistic cruelty. Isn't there a better way?

What about those who never knew of Christ?

[

The whole context of those two verses shows that believers have received God's justification and unbelievers, his condemnation. Read the whole fifth chapter.

 

[St. SteVen]

Accusing God of sadism is a very serious thing.

What do you suppose he might do to me?

Doesn't that prove my point?

My comment was addressed at YOUR description of hell.
What sort of person would do that to another.
I suppose you will blame the victim. (so typical)

What about those who never knew of Christ?
No one wants the hell that you claim they want.

[

 

[St. SteVen]

He is a loving God but also a just God. The Bible is clear on both of those qualities.

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

What do you suppose he might do to me?

Doesn't that prove my point?

My comment was addressed at YOUR description of hell.
What sort of person would do that to another.
I suppose you will blame the victim. (so typical)

What about those who never knew of Christ?
No one wants the hell that you claim they want.

[

Apparently, you don't believe that God is a just God who must punish human sinfulness and that God satisfied his own justice through Jesus' death. Do you believe those truths?

 

[St. SteVen]

Apparently, you don't believe that God is a just God who must punish human sinfulness and that God satisfied his own justice through Jesus' death. Do you believe those truths?

No. Not as stated. Not what I would call truth.

- God is under no obligation to "punish human sinfulness".

- Jesus died to pay the death penalty of sin for all humankind.

- God is loving, kind, gracious and merciful toward those created in his own image.

Did I get it wrong? - LOL

[

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

No. Not as stated. Not what I would call truth.

- God is under no obligation to "punish human sinfulness".

- Jesus died to pay the death penalty of sin for all humankind.

- God is loving, kind, gracious and merciful toward those created in his own image.

Did I get it wrong? - LOL

[

Gen_18:25 Far be it from you to do such a thing, to put the righteous to death with the wicked, so that the righteous fare as the wicked! Far be that from you! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do what is just?”
1Sa_2:10 The adversaries of the LORD shall be broken to pieces; against them he will thunder in heaven. The LORD will judge the ends of the earth; he will give strength to his king and exalt the horn of his anointed.”
Psa_67:4 Let the nations be glad and sing for joy, for you judge the peoples with equity and guide the nations upon earth.
Psa_96:10 Say among the nations, “The LORD reigns! Yes, the world is established; it shall never be moved; he will judge the peoples with equity.”
Psa_96:13 before the LORD, for he comes, for he comes to judge the earth. He will judge the world in righteousness, and the peoples in his faithfulness.
Psa_98:9 before the LORD, for he comes to judge the earth. He will judge the world with righteousness, and the peoples with equity.
Isa_11:3 And his delight shall be in the fear of the LORD. He shall not judge by what his eyes see, or decide disputes by what his ears hear,
Isa_11:4 but with righteousness he shall judge the poor, and decide with equity for the meek of the earth; and he shall strike the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips he shall kill the wicked.
Isa_33:22 For the LORD is our judge; the LORD is our lawgiver; the LORD is our king; he will save us.
2Ti_4:1 I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom:
2Ti_4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that day, and not only to me but also to all who have loved his appearing.

These are just some of the passages describing God as our just Judge, who sent Jesus to take our guilty verdict and make believers right with him as our Judge.

As humans, we were created to be like God, but we messed up that gift since Adam's sin. Now, through Jesus' death and resurrection, God offer his image and likeness to grow within us through faith in Jesus.

 

[St. SteVen]

As humans, we were created to be like God, but we messed up that gift since Adam's sin. Now, through Jesus' death and resurrection, God offer his image and likeness to grow within us through faith in Jesus.

Humans were not created in the image of God? News to me. (bad news)

[

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

Yes, Adam was, but he and all of us messed that image of God in us with self-centeredness (sin) and tarnished it. Jesus came to restore it by dying and rising again and continues to restore it as believers go to church, read the Bible, live for him, and pray!

 

[St. SteVen]

Yes, Adam was, but he and all of us messed that image of God in us with self-centeredness (sin) and tarnished it. Jesus came to restore it by dying and rising again and continues to restore it as believers go to church, read the Bible, live for him, and pray!

So... are you saying that humans become created in the image of God when Jesus restores them?

What does it mean to be created in the image of God?

[

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

So... are you saying that humans become created in the image of God when Jesus restores them?

What does it mean to be created in the image of God?

[

Yes, but gradually over the rest of their lifetimes. There's a bit of a mystery to what the "image and likeness of God" in Genesis 1:27 ("So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.) But the Apostle Paul tells us about believers' restored likeness to God in these passages:

1Co_15:49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.
2Co_3:18 And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.
2Co_4:4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
Col_1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Col_3:10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator.

Under the Spirit's inspiration Paul calls believers (Eph 4:22) to put off your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires,
Eph 4:23 and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds,
Eph 4:24 and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness. '

Just as Adam and Eve looked different from each other, so the likeness of God isn't primarily physical looks, since we don't know what he looked like. It has to be the many perfect qualities that we can share with him, but not his all-powerful, all-knowing, present-everywhere, and eternal, divine nature. He is God, and we are not.

 

[MA2444]

What does it mean to be created in the image of God?

This is a question that doesnt get defined in Genesis. It says let us make man in our image and likeness, but then it define how. So it has become a philosophical question to the believer as to wha that means.

When I first started pondering this I thought, huh. God must be a Bi-Ped with two arms and two legs. But over time I hear it tossed around some and have to believe that, it's more than that. Or maybe not even that, who knows? But what else could it be?

Ding! And I got it. I think, lol. It's not that He is a Pi-Ped with two arms & legs but of a deeper nature. One nature where we are...in Christ. And what did He say? emulate me, do as I do. Take on my nature, my character and define yourselves thusly. We shall be able to do all that Christ ever did on earth and more, it says so in scripture.

SO I think being created in His image and likeness means to take on the character of Jesus. Then that which we cant see, (the spiritual) is that we begin to look like Christ. And let your light so shine!

Maybe I'm right and maybe I'm not?

 

[GISMYS_7]

Would satan plant seeds for such an evil question? YES!!!!