Does man naturally have ability to Seek God ?

[Scott Downey]

Right after the flood, God declares men are evil from their youth in their hearts
When born into this present evil age, your heart is also naturally evil from your youth.
Satan has power still here today to blind all of mankind, who are not believers. but not because they hear and refuse to believe, it is because they have evil hearts and the wisdom in them is of the devil.

Genesis 8
20 Then Noah built an altar to the Lord, and took of every clean animal and of every clean bird, and offered burnt offerings on the altar. 21 And the Lord smelled a soothing aroma. Then the Lord said in His heart, “I will never again curse the ground for man’s sake, although the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done.

22 “While the earth remains,
Seedtime and harvest,
Cold and heat,
Winter and summer,
And day and night
Shall not cease.”

 

[Scott Downey]

Election of Jacob and Israel was not about salvation for most Jews were lost. No-elect people were saved, as Rahab. Hence Romans 9 is not a discourse on Calvinisms 'salvation by election' error.

I think i see your problem with election, you don't think man is evil by nature.
You think they are neutral and choose to do evil things.

 

[Scott Downey]

What is the sin nature? | GotQuestions.org

Our sin nature, 'sinful flesh'
and
The Law of Sin and Death, Christ condemned sin in the flesh
God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh,

Romans 8:2-4
New King James Version
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

To start believing the scriptures, it really requires breaking away from everything they have been taught how that God will never go against their free will. They have been raised and had it hammered into them that they have a libertarian freewill choice concerning believing in Christ, or following the devil and can make their own choice without acknowledging God.

People are not free to choose Christ, the scriptures tell us the minds of those who do not believe are blinded by Satan to the truth of Christ. As in 2 Corinthians 4.

And if they start changing their mind, then they are up against that doctrine of Calvinism and they have been taught that it is evil, that it turns God into a monster.

Well, the wonderful thing is that those who demand to hold on to the concept of the unsaved have free will( to keep part of our ego alive), when they reach heaven, will hear Jesus say- you did not choose me, I chose you! Just sad because it is a cloud in their walk with God. We all have clouds, but we should be willing to accept Scripture without our philosophizing over it.

 

[farouk]

Well, the wonderful thing is that those who demand to hold on to the concept of the unsaved have free will( to keep part of our ego alive), when they reach heaven, will hear Jesus say- you did not choose me, I chose you! Just sad because it is a cloud in their walk with God. We all have clouds, but we should be willing to accept Scripture without our philosophizing over it.

@Ronald Nolette Romans 3.11: "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God."

 

[Scott Downey]

@Ronald Nolette Romans 3.11: "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God."

And that is amply shown everyday.

 

[farouk]

And that is amply shown everyday.

It's yet another way of pointing out from Scripture that in the Gospel, the grace of God must be sovereign.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I think i see your problem with election, you don't think man is evil by nature.
You think they are neutral and choose to do evil things.

The Bible does not teach man is evil at birth or born totally depraved. That idea came from men as Calvin, not from inspired writers of the Bible.

Paul began his discourse about the veil and blindness at the end of 2 Corinthians 3. In this context it is the elect Israel that had a veil and were blind. The veil/blindness was self-imposed by their own choice in rejecting God's word not a result of being born totally depraved....

"But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away."

They blinded themselves way back then and Paul says until this day the vail is upon their heart. They were rejecting Christ for they had chosen to reject the OT law. Had they accepted and believe the OT law they would have received Christ. Stephen condemned the Jews for the same reason "Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it." Hence those Jews hardness of heart and blindness was self-imposed for they would not listen, they "have not kept" the law hence their self-imposed unbelief in Christ. Only when they would choose to turn to Christ would that self-constructed vail/blindness be removed..."when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away". Paul says "even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart". As their fathers resisted so did they even today. There is nothing about this vail-blindness being innately imposed them at birth against their will but a willfully constructed vail-blindness from their own biases and evil prejudices.

 

[Scott Downey]

The Bible does not teach man is evil at birth or born totally depraved. That idea came from men as Calvin, not from inspired writers of the Bible.

Paul began his discourse about the veil and blindness at the end of 2 Corinthians 3. In this context it is the elect Israel that had a veil and were blind. The veil/blindness was self-imposed by their own choice in rejecting God's word not a result of being born totally depraved....

"But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away."

They blinded themselves way back then and Paul says until this day the vail is upon their heart. They were rejecting Christ for they had chosen to reject the OT law. Had they accepted and believe the OT law they would have received Christ. Stephen condemned the Jews for the same reason "Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it." Hence those Jews hardness of heart and blindness was self-imposed for they would not listen, they "have not kept" the law hence their self-imposed unbelief in Christ. Only when they would choose to turn to Christ would that self-constructed vail/blindness be removed..."when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away". Paul says "even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart". As their fathers resisted so did they even today. There is nothing about this vail-blindness being innately imposed them at birth against their will but a willfully constructed vail-blindness from their own biases and evil prejudices.

Your whole post though is about the Jewish people, not the gentiles.
They are different you know that.
the gentiles were not called to salvation until Christ establishes the New Covenant.
The LETTERS to the Churches in these verses I have shown you are written to gentile believers to teach them about why things are as they are, not the Jews.
Corinthians, lived in Corinth, Romans in Rome. Do you understand what I am telling you.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Election of Jacob and Israel was not about salvation for most Jews were lost. No-elect people were saved, as Rahab. Hence Romans 9 is not a discourse on Calvinisms 'salvation by election' error.

Well I agree with you. Are you stuck on this and cannot think past this? I know the electionmentioned is not about salvation but blessing. Biut the other verses cited in Romans 90 is about election and salvation!

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Well, the wonderful thing is that those who demand to hold on to the concept of the unsaved have free will( to keep part of our ego alive), when they reach heaven, will hear Jesus say- you did not choose me, I chose you! Just sad because it is a cloud in their walk with God. We all have clouds, but we should be willing to accept Scripture without our philosophizing over it.

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you,..

In context, these words were spoken to those men whom Jesus called for the office of an Apostle. The context is not about Jesus choosing some for salvation leaving the rest of mankind lost. God is not a respecter of person Acts of the Apostles 10:34-35.

But I chose you ... Westcott said:

Here (and in John 6:70 (NAS)
70 Jesus answered them, "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?"

and John 13:18 (NAS)

18 I do not speak of all of you. I know the ones I have chosen; but it is that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘ He who eats My bread has lifted up his heel against Me .'

....the eleven are regarded as representatives of the Lord in relation to his church, favoring the interpretation (that this is reference to a call of the apostleship). The power of the office of the apostles lay for them in the fact that it was not self chosen".

 

[farouk]

Well I agree with you. Are you stuck on this and cannot think past this? I know the electionmentioned is not about salvation but blessing. Biut the other verses cited in Romans 90 is about election and salvation!

The word salvation - SOTERIA - really means deliverance; context supplies particular reference to the sort of deliverance in view.

 

[farouk]

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you,..

In context, these words were spoken to those men whom Jesus called for the office of an Apostle. The context is not about Jesus choosing some for salvation leaving the rest of mankind lost. God is not a respecter of person Acts of the Apostles 10:34-35.

But I chose you ... Westcott said:

Here (and in John 6:70 (NAS)
70 Jesus answered them, "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?"

John 6:70 and John 13:18 (NAS)

18 I do not speak of all of you. I know the ones I have chosen; but it is that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘ He who eats My bread has lifted up his heel against Me .'

the eleven are regarded as representatives of the Lord in relation to his church, favoring the interpretation (that this is reference to a call of the apostleship). The power of the office of the apostles lay for them in the fact that it was not self chosen".

Ephesians 1 makes it clear that the believer's election is entirely according to God's grace: sovereign, electing grace with no admixture of human merit or fleshly cooperation.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

@Ronald Nolette Romans 3.11: "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God."

Why, a scum bag like me was chosen by God for salvation and to serve Him is a mystery I will never know till heaven. But He has gloriously saved me, turned my life around and now, for the past 47 years, instead of dodging jail time and contracts on my life and reading the Satanic bible, I teach, and preach the word of God! What a glorious God we serve!

 

[Enoch111]

I think i see your problem with election, you don't think man is evil by nature.

Men are sinners by nature inherited from Adam. But all men are not evil, as you presume. Five Point Calvinism ignores what is actually in the Bible, in order to concoct its own version of the Gospel.

So take note of what is revealed in Romans 2:14-16 about unsaved mankind: For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another, In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

What is God revealing to us here through Paul?
1. The Gentiles did not have the Ten Commandments.
2. The Ten Commandments were written in their hearts.
3. The conscience is where those commandments are written.
4. Ordinary human nature has the conscience built into it.
5. The unsaved can do righteous deeds when following their conscience.
6. The conscience will either excuse or accuse.

CALVIN'S COMMENTARY ON ROMANS 2:14 (Bible Hub)
14. For when the Gentiles, etc. He now states what proves the former clause; for he did not think it enough to condemn us by mere assertion, and only to pronounce on us the just judgment of God; but he proceeds to prove this by reasons, in order to excite us to a greater desire for Christ, and to a greater love towards him. He indeed shows that ignorance is in vain pretended as an excuse by the Gentiles, since they prove by their own deeds that they have some rule of righteousness: for there is no nation so lost to every thing human, that it does not keep within the limits of some laws. Since then all nations, of themselves and without a monitor, are disposed to make laws for themselves, it is beyond all question evident that they have some notions of justice and rectitude, which the Greeks call preconceptions prolepseis, and which are implanted by nature in the hearts of men. They have then a law, though they are without law: for though they have not a written law, they are yet by no means wholly destitute of the knowledge of what is right and just; as they could not otherwise distinguish between vice and virtue; the first of which they restrain by punishment, and the latter they commend, and manifest their approbation of it by honoring it with rewards. He sets nature in opposition to a written law, meaning that the Gentiles had the natural light of righteousness, which supplied the place of that law by which the Jews were instructed, so that they were a law to themselves. [72]

So. Scott Downey, Calvin himself refutes your notions! Amazing isn't it?

 

[Scott Downey]

Book of Ephesians written to gentile who lived in Ephesus
Ephesians 4
17 This I say, therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you should no longer walk as the rest of the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind, 18 having their understanding darkened (by the devil), being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart (by the devil blinding them); 19 who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to lewdness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you,..

In context, these words were spoken to those men whom Jesus called for the office of an Apostle. The context is not about Jesus choosing some for salvation leaving the rest of mankind lost. God is not a respecter of person Acts of the Apostles 10:34-35.

But I chose you ... Westcott said:

Here (and in John 6:70 (NAS)
70 Jesus answered them, "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?"

and John 13:18 (NAS)

18 I do not speak of all of you. I know the ones I have chosen; but it is that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘ He who eats My bread has lifted up his heel against Me .'

....the eleven are regarded as representatives of the Lord in relation to his church, favoring the interpretation (that this is reference to a call of the apostleship). The power of the office of the apostles lay for them in the fact that it was not self chosen".

And those He chose with the exception of the son of perdition, Judas, He also saved! Remember, when Peter exclaimed Jesus was teh christ , the son of the livin ggod, Jeus told him, that his own mind didn't reveal that, but god in heaven did.

also remember that no one (NO ONE 0, nada, zip, zilch, zippo) can come to Jesus unless the Father draws them, and all who come to Jesus He will in no wise cast out!

 

[farouk]

Why, a scum bag like me was chosen by God for salvation and to serve Him is a mystery I will never know till heaven. But He has gloriously saved me, turned my life around and now, for the past 47 years, instead of dodging jail time and contracts on my life and reading the Satanic bible, I teach, and preach the word of God! What a glorious God we serve!

Ditto with the sentiment about oneself; Amen.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Well I agree with you. Are you stuck on this and cannot think past this? I know the electionmentioned is not about salvation but blessing. Biut the other verses cited in Romans 90 is about election and salvation!

Calvinists I have dealt with wrongly claim the election of Jacob was about his being automatically, unconditionally saved and the non-election of Esau was about his elected to unconditionally, automatically being lost. Whereby neither man had any say so in their own salvation or condemnation for God chose that for them.
But the election was about which descendants Christ would come from and God chose Jacob/Israel and not Esau/Edomites but that did not mean unconditional, automatic salvation for Jacob/Israel as it did not mean unconditional, automatic condemnation for Esau/Edomites. The idea of Calvinism salvation by election cannot be found in the text, it is assumed into the text.

 

[Scott Downey]

Men are sinners by nature inherited from Adam. But all men are not evil, as you presume. Five Point Calvinism ignores what is actually in the Bible, in order to concoct its own version of the Gospel.

So take note of what is revealed in Romans 2:14-16 about unsaved mankind: For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another, In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

What is God revealing to us here through Paul?
1. The Gentiles did not have the Ten Commandments.
2. The Ten Commandments were written in their hearts.
3. The conscience is where those commandments are written.
4. Ordinary human nature has the conscience built into it.
5. The unsaved can do righteous deeds when following their conscience.
6. The conscience will either excuse or accuse.

CALVIN'S COMMENTARY ON ROMANS 2:14 (Bible Hub)
14. For when the Gentiles, etc. He now states what proves the former clause; for he did not think it enough to condemn us by mere assertion, and only to pronounce on us the just judgment of God; but he proceeds to prove this by reasons, in order to excite us to a greater desire for Christ, and to a greater love towards him. He indeed shows that ignorance is in vain pretended as an excuse by the Gentiles, since they prove by their own deeds that they have some rule of righteousness: for there is no nation so lost to every thing human, that it does not keep within the limits of some laws. Since then all nations, of themselves and without a monitor, are disposed to make laws for themselves, it is beyond all question evident that they have some notions of justice and rectitude, which the Greeks call preconceptions prolepseis, and which are implanted by nature in the hearts of men. They have then a law, though they are without law: for though they have not a written law, they are yet by no means wholly destitute of the knowledge of what is right and just; as they could not otherwise distinguish between vice and virtue; the first of which they restrain by punishment, and the latter they commend, and manifest their approbation of it by honoring it with rewards. He sets nature in opposition to a written law, meaning that the Gentiles had the natural light of righteousness, which supplied the place of that law by which the Jews were instructed, so that they were a law to themselves. [72]

So. Scott Downey, Calvin himself refutes your notions! Amazing isn't it?

I dont read Calvin much if ever.
And what you quote in romans 2 has nothing about them going to heaven after they are judged.
None of them will be in heaven who do not believe in Christ and also never heard of Him, after Christ came, died on the cross and established the NC. You are an antichrist.

If you read on, it says this which you quote about this scripture,
In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

God will judge these gentiles by the gospel of Christ Himself
Christ says this, which you apparently do not believe
John 8:23-25
New King James Version

23 And He said to them, “You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

25 Then they said to Him, “Who are You?”

And Jesus said to them, “Just what I have been saying to you from the beginning.

Each and every person, Jew or Gentile who die in their sins go to hellfire.