Does man naturally have ability to Seek God ?

[michaelvpardo]

This should not be taken out of context to prove that God predestines some for damnation. The "vessels of wrath" are those who oppose God and oppose the Gospel. And it is because they choose to oppose God that they become vessels of wrath, just like Pharaoh. He was given many opportunities to repent, but he kept hardening his heart. Ultimately God hardened his heart.

On the other hand God pronounced judgment on Nineveh through Jonah, but they all repented. Therefore they were saved. This must stump every Calvinist who imagines that they were vessels of wrath prepared for destruction. In fact this incident REFUTES the Calvinistic notion that some are predestined for Hell.

Did you actually read what I wrote? Why would a cartoon character with an imaginary pet tiger care about predestination?
The context of my conversation is election, a doctrine clearly taught by scripture. If you can't help make an argument for God's word, you're just another stumbling block in the Way.

 

[Enoch111]

The context of my conversation is election, a doctrine clearly taught by scripture. If you can't help make an argument for God's word, you're just another stumbling block in the Way.

Yes, election is clearly taught in the Bible. But it is NOT election for justification (salvation) but election for glorification (perfection). Now kindly note very carefully how Paul chooses his words (under divine inspiration).

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

So what do we learn from just these two powerful verses?
1. God has a very definite plan of salvation.
2. In His divine foreknowledge He predestinates some for a specific reason.
3. Predestination is in order "to be conformed to the image of His Son".
4. This image includes glorification.


We know that Christ is absolutely perfect and glorious. But we are not. However, God wants His children to resemble Christ totally. To be replicas of Christ. That is what conformed to the image of His Son means. Therefore God has predestined those who believe on Him to be perfected and glorified. This perfection and glorification will take place at the Resurrection/Rapture (not mentioned in Romans 8).

Why is predestination never for salvation? Because salvation is offered to ALL.

 

[michaelvpardo]

And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. Ephesians 2:1-3

 

[michaelvpardo]

Yes, election is clearly taught in the Bible. But it is NOT election for justification (salvation) but election for glorification (perfection). Now kindly note very carefully how Paul chooses his words (under divine inspiration).

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

So what do we learn from just these two powerful verses?
1. God has a very definite plan of salvation.
2. In His divine foreknowledge He predestinates some for a specific reason.
3. Predestination is in order "to be conformed to the image of His Son".
4. This image includes glorification.


We know that Christ is absolutely perfect and glorious. But we are not. However, God wants His children to resemble Christ totally. To be replicas of Christ. That is what conformed to the image of His Son means. Therefore God has predestined those who believe on Him to be perfected and glorified. This perfection and glorification will take place at the Resurrection/Rapture (not mentioned in Romans 8).

Why is predestination never for salvation? Because salvation is offered to ALL.

And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. Ephesians 2 :1-3

I am constantly amazed at how many "christians" assert that this applies to someone else and obviously not to them. Salvation is an offer to all, but election is about those who receive it and not by our will, but by God's.

 

[Enoch111]

And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. Ephesians 2 :1-3

This passage does not contradict what I have posted, but explains exactly who we all were BEFORE we were saved. As the Bible says "there is none righteous, no not one". So what was the condition of the unsaved person before salvation according to this passage?

1. We were all spiritually dead [The soul is alive at birth but the spirit is dead. therefore Jesus said "You must be born again!" It is only by the New Birth that the spirit is made alive ("quickened")].
2. We were all under the control of Satan ("the prince of the power of the air")
3. We were all controlled by our lusts ("the lusts of our flesh")
4. We were all by nature facing God's wrath ("children of wrath")

And it is because the whole human race is in that position that God offers salvation to all, since He is not willing that any should perish (be damned) but that all should come to repentance, be saved, and come unto the knowledge of the truth. That automatically cancels election/predestination for salvation.

 

[michaelvpardo]

This passage does not contradict what I have posted, but explains exactly who we all were BEFORE we were saved. As the Bible says "there is none righteous, no not one". So what was the condition of the unsaved person before salvation according to this passage?

1. We were all spiritually dead [The soul is alive at birth but the spirit is dead. therefore Jesus said "You must be born again!" It is only by the New Birth that the spirit is made alive ("quickened")].
2. We were all under the control of Satan ("the prince of the power of the air")
3. We were all controlled by our lusts ("the lusts of our flesh")
4. We were all by nature facing God's wrath ("children of wrath")

And it is because the whole human race is in that position that God offers salvation to all, since He is not willing that any should perish (be damned) but that all should come to repentance, be saved, and come unto the knowledge of the truth. That automatically cancels election/predestination for salvation.

Dead people don't seek God, that's exactly why such language is used to describe our fallen state (we all have the breath of life, even under a curse.) Thank you for an edifying post that supports the biblical teaching.

 

[michaelvpardo]

That automatically cancels election/predestination for salvation.

Not at all. Salvation is a very broad term in scripture. Life is offered to ALL, but outside "there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
God has prepared a kingdom for the righteous and if you take Him at His word, His kingdom is for those who do what is righteous rather than those who simply profess to have acted in His name. There are two distinct judgments in scripture and the final one doesn't "harm" the saints, but I think it's a bit foolish to assert that every other soul is erased from the book of life. What would even be the point of that judgment, simple adjudication?

54 And when His disciples James and John saw this, they said, “Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them, just as Elijah did?”

55 But He turned and rebuked them, and said, “You do not know what manner of spirit you are of. 56 For the Son of Man did not come to destroy men’s lives but to save them.” And they went to another village. Luke 9:54-55

 

[Oceanprayers]

It was where you said you remembered reading our parents sins don’t pass to us. But they did pass to us by inheritance. So I was just thinking you were talking about that verse so I was pointing out that the verse was different than inheritance. But it seems you agree. I was referring to the inheritance as disease by comparison. As for a leopard not being able to change its spots (it’s a verse), it was born with them, I saw a connection but if you don’t it’s okay.

If we inherited our sin state due to Adam, then later when we're told we're not responsible for, we don't inherit our parents sins, because we're all responsible for our own sins, it seems wrong that Adams act after that of Eve, both being misled by the wiser serpent who obviously knew God's ultimatum about that tree, would be the reason for our inherited sin nature.

All people were doomed before they were born. Because God lay that curse upon us.

 

[brightfame52]

Man not seeking the one and only True God is an evidence that man naturally is dead in sin, that is dead to God, separated from the life of God alienated from God, this so much so, man has no desire for the True God Rom 3:11

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.5

 

[brightfame52]

Oh yeah, I didn’t have an issue with faith vs faithfulness. One is trusting, the other is to continue, remain, abide in trust.

The thing to understand is the man naturally doesnt have the fruit of the Spirit, Faith or faithfulness unto God. Do you understand that ?

 

[Taken]

Does man naturally have ability to Seek God ?
OP ^

YES...
Man was CREATED natural of dust.
Immediately Man was MADE alive with a SOUL from God.

Yes, man Created and Made, does have the ABILITY to SEEK God.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Jer 13:23

Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

The context is speaking specifically about Israel, not all of mankind. The verse speaks of Israel..." that are "accustomed" to do evil"... they had lived in sin for so long that sinning became a custom, a habit with them. So Jeremiah is not talking about how they were born but what they become by habitually practicing sin.
There is nothing morally wrong, sinful that the Ethiopian has dark skin or with the leopard having spots, God does not condemn them for how they were innately born. Yet Calvinism tries to have God unjustly, wrongly condemn man for man supposedly having been innately born totally depraved. I see no parallel between to two.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

If he's culpable for the faithful wouldn't that make him culpable for those he doesn't bestow with faith?

Men of their own free will choice choose to have faith or not, so God has no culpability either way.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Well now you are confusing an elect nation with those elect for salvation from the foundation of the world. The word elect when it appears is not always referring to the same election!

Romans 9 Paul used Jacob and Esau to show that it always is based on Gods election.

Romans 9:15-22
King James Version

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

This part of Romans 9 has nothing to do with Jacob and Esau but whom god chooses for glory and whom is fit for destruction (all of us apart from His mercy)

But as for the gentiles being elect:

Ephesians 1:

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

chosen =eklogomai- which is based on the root ekletos= elect.

As jesus said no man can come unto me unless the Father draw Him! and Jesus also said, you did not choose me, but I chose you! Paul and Jeremiah also recognized this when the Lord said one was chosen before coneption and one was separated in HIsmother womb!

What is true for Jacob and Esau would be true for their descendants. If Esau being non-elect mans he will be lost, then it is equally true for his descendants, they are all non-elect and lost also. And if Jacob being elect means his salvation then it is equally true that all his descendants will be saved also. But we know non-elect were saved (Gentiles - Rahab, James 2) and elect Jews were lost (Romans 10:1-3). Therefore the idea of Calvinism's salvation by election must be wholly rejected. That the election of Jacob and Israel had NOTHING to do with their salvation but God's choice as the line of people He would use to bring the Messiah into the world. Even though Jacob and Israel was elected to bring the Messiah into the world they still had to be obedient to God's will to be saved. Anyone, Jew or Gentile, that was obedient could be saved, again see Rahab James 2. So the election of Jacob and Israel had nothing to do with the salvation or condemnation of anyone, Jew or Gentile.


Ephesians 1 deals with corporate election. God foreknew and predestined the GROUP Christian ("us") to be saved and God preordained that this group would possess certain traits/blessings as being "in Christ" and be "holy and without blame". Ephesians 1:4. Those chosen were CONDITIONALLY chosen "IN HIM" not unconditionally chosen apart from being in Christ. No such thing in the Bible as a single individual haven been chosen UNconditionally apart from Christ, apart from being in the group Christian. Since God made it a group/corporate election and man chooses for himself to be in that group and possess those traits or not, then all culpability lies upon man and none upon God when Calvinism puts culpability upon God when He has none.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

What is true for Jacob and Esau would be true for their descendants. If Esau being non-elect mans he will be lost, then it is equally true for his descendants,

False reasoning. this election was for the birthright. Election does not always mean salvation. So to bring this into the doctrine of divine election is false.

But it does show God chooses and it is the rest of teh chapter that shows God decides who is and is not predestined to salvation.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Add to that that no one can come to Jesus unless drawn and that in Ephesians we were the chosen from the foundation of the world- Yes God elects.

 

[Scott Downey]

Yes Ronald, agree, and Happy N.Y. to you and yours!

The first verse that came to mind when I just now read your reply here was:

John 16:8
"And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:"

Is this NOT being "compelled by Christ" ? Through the Holy Spirit?
Doesn't the "world" mentioned here mean all people?
In essence, God DOES invite "all people" to His Son yet, we know and He knew that most would love their sin more. I think most of us have been there! (living in sin and thinking nothing "wrong" with it) ... UNTIL... The Holy Spirit CONVICTS US OF SIN RIGHTEOUSNESS and JUDGEMENT? Men's doctrines can make or break the confidence we have in Him...especially the assurance of our salvation.
As far as being "compelled"
One can harden their hearts to the point of no return ("their consciences were seared...") One can come running and sprout deep and high! One can be interested for a minute then the cares of this world crowd..." And some come in kicking and screaming~! that would be me, and others I personally know.
The "I" in the acronym T.U.L.I.P. - Irresistible grace would be shoving someone, forcefully really, into loving God. Just cannot see that in so many verses but, I am not certain of MANY things biblical.

God bless bro, and Happy N.Y.

A lot of people use that verse in relation to being saved. But there is no salvation in those words, there is only condemnation and judgement there.
v 9-11 show us that truth. You must read scripture in context.
And notice also, HE convicts 'the WORLD'
Those of the WORLD never believe in Christ as they are of the WORLD and not of God.
Convict also has meaning here.
VERB

1. declare (someone) to be guilty of a criminal offense by the verdict of a jury or the decision of a judge in a court of law.
   "the thieves were convicted of the robbery"
   synonyms:
   declare/find/pronounce guilty · sentence · give someone a sentence

NOUN

1. a person found guilty of a criminal offense and serving a sentence of imprisonment.

This means they bear their guilt. unforgiven people go to hell. Christ also leaves them to their fate, they will see HIM no more.

The Holy Spirit though teaches believers all things, but for the WORLD of unbelievers, they are convicted, guilty, and worthy of hell.
God is not trying to save anyone, God absolutely and utterly saves His foreknown to Him elect, they are the only ones saved.
Not a single sheep of Christ is lost, all the sheep, it is God's will that none be lost. That includes the 'other sheep Christ has, who when they hear His voice will believe and follow Christ. Those other sheep are also of His very own elect who have not yet heard, but they will in God's perfect timing for them. Just like Saul become Paul, Saul was one of the yet unsaved sheep, and the Holy Spirit was goading or prodding Saul, and Saul was resisting, but could not ultimately resist the power of God over him.

John 16
8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me;
10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more;
11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

 

[Nancy]

A lot of people use that verse in relation to being saved. But there is no salvation in those words, there is only condemnation and judgement there.
v 9-11 show us that truth. You must read scripture in context.
And notice also, HE convicts 'the WORLD'
Those of the WORLD never believe in Christ as they are of the WORLD and not of God.
Convict also has meaning here.
VERB

1. declare (someone) to be guilty of a criminal offense by the verdict of a jury or the decision of a judge in a court of law.
   "the thieves were convicted of the robbery"
   synonyms:
   declare/find/pronounce guilty · sentence · give someone a sentence

NOUN

1. a person found guilty of a criminal offense and serving a sentence of imprisonment.

This means they bear their guilt. unforgiven people go to hell. Christ also leaves them to their fate, they will see HIM no more.

The Holy Spirit though teaches believers all things, but for the WORLD of unbelievers, they are convicted, guilty, and worthy of hell.
God is not trying to save anyone, God absolutely and utterly saves His foreknown to Him elect, they are the only ones saved.
Not a single sheep of Christ is lost, all the sheep, it is God's will that none be lost. That includes the 'other sheep Christ has, who when they hear His voice will believe and follow Christ. Those other sheep are also of His very own elect who have not yet heard, but they will in God's perfect timing for them. Just like Saul become Paul, Saul was one of the yet unsaved sheep, and the Holy Spirit was goading or prodding Saul, and Saul was resisting, but could not ultimately resist the power of God over him.

John 16
8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me;
10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more;
11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

Well, I suppose there is no way you will EVER convince me as, I was not predestined to believe it...

BTW-how can there be consequences without choice?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

A lot of people use that verse in relation to being saved. But there is no salvation in those words, there is only condemnation and judgement there.
v 9-11 show us that truth. You must read scripture in context.
And notice also, HE convicts 'the WORLD'
Those of the WORLD never believe in Christ as they are of the WORLD and not of God.
Convict also has meaning here.
VERB

1. declare (someone) to be guilty of a criminal offense by the verdict of a jury or the decision of a judge in a court of law.
   "the thieves were convicted of the robbery"
   synonyms:
   declare/find/pronounce guilty · sentence · give someone a sentence

NOUN

1. a person found guilty of a criminal offense and serving a sentence of imprisonment.

This means they bear their guilt. unforgiven people go to hell. Christ also leaves them to their fate, they will see HIM no more.

The Holy Spirit though teaches believers all things, but for the WORLD of unbelievers, they are convicted, guilty, and worthy of hell.
God is not trying to save anyone, God absolutely and utterly saves His foreknown to Him elect, they are the only ones saved.
Not a single sheep of Christ is lost, all the sheep, it is God's will that none be lost. That includes the 'other sheep Christ has, who when they hear His voice will believe and follow Christ. Those other sheep are also of His very own elect who have not yet heard, but they will in God's perfect timing for them. Just like Saul become Paul, Saul was one of the yet unsaved sheep, and the Holy Spirit was goading or prodding Saul, and Saul was resisting, but could not ultimately resist the power of God over him.

John 16
8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me;
10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more;
11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

too many people forget that mankind, left to our own devices and our own abilities to choose spend eternity in hell. all mankind is lost and if God di dnot intervene in some lives- no one would be saved!

 

[Scott Downey]

Well, I suppose there is no way you will EVER convince me as, I was not predestined to believe it...

Well, I am just telling you. You can also think about the scriptures. No scripture can be understood properly outside of the context.
God is a God of order and consistency. God does what ever He wants. If God had not foreknown any as His people, then none would believe in His Son. The concept regarding the calling and election is not really God foreknew what they would do, it is God foreknows them.

29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

v29 gives us one of the reasons people are saved, so that Christ would have many brothers, a large family, so then for the sake of God and God's purpose and will people believe in His Son. Read Ephesians 1

We see that also in Hebrews 2
10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12 saying:

“I will declare Your name to My brethren;
In the midst of the assembly I will sing praise to You.”

13 And again:

“I will put My trust in Him.”

And again:

“Here am I and the children whom God has given Me.”

 

[Oceanprayers]

Men of their own free will choice choose to have faith or not, so God has no culpability either way.

That's not what God said.