Does man naturally have ability to Seek God ?

[stunnedbygrace]

Before a person is saved[quickened], they are spiritually dead and that makes it impossible for faith to
emerge. Faith is the fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22 and not of the flesh.81

Hmm…I never noted that it says faithfulness is a fruit of the Spirit. I had noted it says saved by grace through faith, and that not of ourselves, so I hate the doctrine that tells men they chose to believe, since blind men don’t choose to see God exists.
Very good, thank you!

 

[michaelvpardo]

Why is this such a belaboured topic?

None of us chose to exist, but our existence happened anyway.

The existence of the Word of God leads to the existence of Faith in God. It happens.

So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth;
It shall not return to Me void,
But it shall accomplish what I please,
And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it. Isaiah 55:11
The topic is beleaguered because some professing Christians believe that they are "good people" and were born that way. To be fair, this lie has been promoted by sociologists, anthropologist, and scientists for over a century and worldly minded people readily accept what the world has taught them.
Doesn't the notion that you've been chosen by God for being a good boy have a real appeal to vanity?

Jesus said "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God." Mark 10:18

How awesome to be the exception to Jesus' teaching.

Isaiah said "All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all. Isaiah 53:6

How wonderful to prove God wrong. Sorry, I forgot, Isaiah was Jewish.

King David wrote: The Lord looks down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there are any who understand, who seek God.3 They have all turned aside,
They have together become corrupt; There is none who does good, No, not one. Psalm 14:2-3

He obviously couldn't have meant himself as well ,
as he was a very godly adulterer and murderer.

Sorry about the sarcasm, but trying to illuminate scripture to some individuals here is very much like preaching to white washed tombs.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Proverbs 20:12
The hearing ear and the seeing eye, The Lord has made them both.

Is this a biology lesson or is it revelatory?

 

[Nancy]

So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth;
It shall not return to Me void,
But it shall accomplish what I please,
And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it. Isaiah 55:11
The topic is beleaguered because some professing Christians believe that they are "good people" and were born that way. To be fair, this lie has been promoted by sociologists, anthropologist, and scientists for over a century and worldly minded people readily accept what the world has taught them.
Doesn't the notion that you've been chosen by God for being a good boy have a real appeal to vanity?

Jesus said "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God." Mark 10:18

How awesome to be the exception to Jesus' teaching.

Isaiah said "All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all. Isaiah 53:6

How wonderful to prove God wrong. Sorry, I forgot, Isaiah was Jewish.

King David wrote: The Lord looks down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there are any who understand, who seek God.3 They have all turned aside,
They have together become corrupt; There is none who does good, No, not one. Psalm 14:2-3

He obviously couldn't have meant himself as well ,
as he was a very godly adulterer and murderer.

Sorry about the sarcasm, but trying to illuminate scripture to some individuals here is very much like preaching to white washed tombs.

Hi brother,
I am not a "Reformed" anything and DO believe in free choice, but the Calvinists actually believe God chose some and not others "arbitrarily", not by anything they did or not do as it was was from " from the foundations of the world".

To myself and others I know, it is a doctrine of men, or demons as it CAN kill Joy, Steal assurance of salvation, and destroy faith.
God bless.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Hi brother,
I am not a "Reformed" anything and DO believe in free choice, but the Calvinists actually believe God chose some and not others "arbitrarily", not by anything they did or not do as it was was from " from the foundations of the world".

To myself and others I know, it is a doctrine of men, or demons as it CAN kill Joy, Steal assurance of salvation, and destroy faith.
God bless.

Not at all. I'm not familiar with Calvin's doctrine, but election is taught plainly by the scriptures, including the Apostles. If you believe, it was God who made you believe by revealing Himself in the person of His Son. Faith comes by hearing the word of God, but many hear the word of God without ever believing. So, if the scriptures are true (and they are) then it is God, the Holy Spirit, who quickens our spirits to hear His word.
When Jesus asked His disciples , “But who do you say that I am?”

Peter replied : “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

Jesus didn't congratulate Peter for his outstanding scholarship or wonderful power of perception, but rather, declared: “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. (Matthew 16:15-17)
Peter is in no way exceptional but for the fact that he denied the Lord 3 times and was still restored to the faith.
What Jesus said of Peter is true of all who have genuine faith. We are all chosen by God for this salvation, if we truly believe and haven't decieved ourselves.

2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God 1 John 4:2
Here John calls confessing Christ the proof of being "of God."
So, what could be of greater assurance, choosing God or being "of God?"
If we could choose to believe Him, what on Earth could prevent us from changing our minds at our first trial and rejecting that initial belief? How is that assuring?

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:44
Help me out here. What is it exactly about this verse that you don't believe ?

7 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.” John 10:7-30

Now, if you believe what Jesus said in John's gospel, what could provide a greater assurance of salvation?
Are you suggesting that there are people stronger than God?
I could understand a doubt about your salvation if you didn't feel drawn to christ, but even being here and seeking to understand scripture kind of suggests the opposite.
Just because you don't understand something, doesn't make it less true.

7 For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind. 2 Timothy 1:6-8
Does this verse apply to you, or just Paul and Timothy?
Did you notice that it's about what God has given, not about something that we've worked up on our own.

There's nothing sadder than a Christian whose prayer is powerless because of doubt, except a person who will not enter through the "narrow gate" because they're confident in themselves.

 

[Nancy]

Not at all. I'm not familiar with Calvin's doctrine, but election is taught plainly by the scriptures, including the Apostles. If you believe, it was God who made you believe by revealing Himself in the person of His Son. Faith comes by hearing the word of God, but many hear the word of God without ever believing. So, if the scriptures are true (and they are) then it is God, the Holy Spirit, who...

And what of these, and these are only a few:

21 " And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

Of course, John 3:16
"16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."

John 1:12-13
"12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." (Born again, from above by faith in Christ and faith comes by hearing...) <--- mine.

2 Peter 3:9
"9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance."

1 Tim. 2:4
"4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

1 John 2:2
"2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world."

Acts 18:27
"27 And when he wished to cross to Achaia, the brothers encouraged him and wrote to the disciples to welcome him. When he arrived, he greatly helped those who through grace had believed,"

 

[michaelvpardo]

And what of these, and these are only a few:

21 " And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

Of course, John 3:16
"16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."

John 1:12-13
"12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." (Born again, from above by faith in Christ and faith comes by hearing...) <--- mine.

2 Peter 3:9
"9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance."

1 Tim. 2:4
"4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

1 John 2:2
"2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world."

Acts 18:27
"27 And when he wished to cross to Achaia, the brothers encouraged him and wrote to the disciples to welcome him. When he arrived, he greatly helped those who through grace had believed,"

Uh, pretty sure that they all support God's election. None of them disprove it.

 

[Nancy]

Uh, pretty sure that they all support God's election. None of them disprove it.

Yes, but not just for a select few. Free choice does not affect God's sovereignty. Do you think it a work of the flesh to accept His awesome gift?

He said He would draw ALL men unto Him, of course we know that most love their sin more than God so...many "choose" the wide path to their destruction.

Either way, all truth will be revealed when we "see clearly".
God bless.

 

[bbyrd009]

No man naturally can believe on Christ nor even believe in the True God

21For although they knew God

 

[michaelvpardo]

Yes, but not just for a select few. Free choice does not affect God's sovereignty. Do you think it a work of the flesh to accept His awesome gift?

He said He would draw ALL men unto Him, of course we know that most love their sin more than God so...many "choose" the wide path to their destruction.

Either way, all truth will be revealed when we "see clearly".
God bless.

Well, let's not forget the Apostle Paul's teaching :
21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, Romans 9:21-22
Please note that this does not say that God prepared the vessels of wrath, but to the contrary scripture says that the whole world is under the sway of the evil one, and the scripture tells us plainly that the devil is a thief, a liar, and a murderer. I'm pretty sure that Satan would be pleased if every single soul was condemned to eternal destruction.
God is good, the creator and life giver. Satan is His adversary, the created, and accuser of the brethren.
Does any of this make sense to you?
Do you believe the word of God?

 

[Enoch111]

No man naturally can believe on Christ nor even believe in the True God, Naturally man doesnt seek the True God nor understand Him Rom 3:11 !

And yet Romans chapter 1 says that men are without excuse for failing to believe in the true God. And you failed to acknowledge that the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation. Which means that you do not really believe God. So what's worse?

 

[Enoch111]

How would Adam even know what death was?

He would know this much that death was the PENALTY for disobeying God. He did not need to know any more. Just like you would know that the penalty for speeding is $xxx without necessarily knowing all the reasons for that penalty (although you could guess them).

 

[Enoch111]

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, Romans 9:21-22

This should not be taken out of context to prove that God predestines some for damnation. The "vessels of wrath" are those who oppose God and oppose the Gospel. And it is because they choose to oppose God that they become vessels of wrath, just like Pharaoh. He was given many opportunities to repent, but he kept hardening his heart. Ultimately God hardened his heart.

On the other hand God pronounced judgment on Nineveh through Jonah, but they all repented. Therefore they were saved. This must stump every Calvinist who imagines that they were vessels of wrath prepared for destruction. In fact this incident REFUTES the Calvinistic notion that some are predestined for Hell.

 

[Nancy]

Well, let's not forget the Apostle Paul's teaching :
21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, Romans 9:21-22
Please note that this does not say that God prepared the vessels of wrath, but to the contrary scripture says that the whole world is under the sway of the evil one, and the scripture tells us plainly that the devil is a thief, a liar, and a murderer. I'm pretty sure that Satan would be pleased if every single soul was condemned to eternal destruction.
God is good, the creator and life giver. Satan is His adversary, the created, and accuser of the brethren.
Does any of this make sense to you?
Do you believe the word of God?

21 "Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?"
Romans 9:21

23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,

24 "even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles."

I believe the above verses pertain to the Jews not liking that the Gentiles were grafted in. So, yes, "who are you oh man or (Jew), as they were being spoken to also in this, to question who God saves, or molds into a vessel of honor? Yes oh Pharisees, God has invited the Gentiles now...

"Please note that this does not say that God prepared the vessels of wrath..."<--- Then who did prepare the vessels of wrath?
"...endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction"?
Seems that God did?

"... scripture says that the whole world is under the sway of the evil one, and the scripture tells us plainly that the devil is a thief, a liar, and a murderer."
Yes, agreed.

Of course I believe the word of God! Suppose I could ask you the same
Really do not want to around and around and around this with you brother, it's been WAY too many times discussed into the ground for YEARS...and it's ALWAYS the same verses over and over again, same exact arguments over and over again.
God Bless.

 

[Oceanprayers]

Man naturally doesnt seek after the True God, nor understands the True God Rom 3:11

We have nothing to do with finding God then?

 

[Oceanprayers]

He would know this much that death was the PENALTY for disobeying God. He did not need to know any more. Just like you would know that the penalty for speeding is $xxx without necessarily knowing all the reasons for that penalty (although you could guess them).

How, prior to eating of the tree of knowledge, would Adam know that?
When it was only after eating that sin and death entered the world due to Adam.

I don't think the speeding analogy relates to Adams situation prior to the fall.
He had no understanding of good nor evil, right or wrong.

 

[brightfame52]

Hmm…I never noted that it says faithfulness is a fruit of the Spirit. I had noted it says saved by grace through faith, and that not of ourselves, so I hate the doctrine that tells men they chose to believe, since blind men don’t choose to see God exists.
Very good, thank you!

Both faith and faithfulness are fruit of the Spirit, its the same word in the greek.

 

[brightfame52]

And yet Romans chapter 1 says that men are without excuse for failing to believe in the true God. And you failed to acknowledge that the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation. Which means that you do not really believe God. So what's worse?

Man is without excuse, and man by nature doesnt seek God, not the True God, nor does he understand the true God.

 

[brightfame52]

We have nothing to do with finding God then?

God seeks and finds His Sheep. Read Lk 15

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Both faith and faithfulness are fruit of the Spirit, its the same word in the greek.

Oh yeah, I didn’t have an issue with faith vs faithfulness. One is trusting, the other is to continue, remain, abide in trust.