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Right, and the reason we groan in the spirit is because that is who we really are. We are vexed by having to drag along this identity that is like a second personality, one who we consciously decided we do not want to be. And that man of sin from Adam is real and a part of us that speaks in agreement with Adam's rebellion as it also wars against who we are and have chosen to be in the spirit. But to give up our fight and to live by the leading of that carnal man of sin speaking within us is to eventually be revealed a son fit for nothing but perdition.
That's why our trying to do right in following Christ is 'counted' as being perfect, even though being just like Him is something we can never achieve in this world. There is a doctrine going around in many Churches today that we can become 'a Christ' ourselves, but it's not any such idea that comes from God's Word. It's an idea that originates with the serpent's temptation upon Adam and Eve of thinking to become their own gods. That may... sound like a drastic comparison, but I assure you, it is not. Every time we admit what Christ Jesus did on the cross for us, we are automatically admitting that we could never fulfill what He did. So although we have the need to try to be perfect in this flesh, we shouldn't beat ourselves up too much with guilt when we continually discover we've failed because of the law of sin in our fleshy members. And like John also said, there is sin unto death, and sin not unto death (1 John 5).
I know you are not promoting a license to sin and I have often thought to myself how refreshing to read your comments because they reflect understanding.
Whether this is progressive or not depends upon what aspect of it we are speaking to. This is happening now: 2 Thessalonians 1:3 ......... And this is happening now: Ephesians 2:21.
Ephesians 2:21 says wet are growing into that HOLY temple, now, not later. And that is no mock holiness if it be that really are in Christ and have lain down in death that man of sin from Adam.
I should have added further about the idea of a progressive attainment to holiness I mentioned, because I intended to include the false idea it's about of actually being able to reach a state of sinlessness in the flesh, which is actually impossible for all except Jesus Christ (Gal.3:22). It doesn't matter who we are, we are still going find ourselves in sin at times, just because of the bondage state our spirit is in with the flesh. So overcoming is not about having reached literal perfection over our flesh, but having stayed in the battle until death of our flesh body or at Christ's coming, i.e., like how Paul mentioned the idea of running a race (1 Cor.9; Heb.12).
No where are we told that after we commit that old man to death that he is supposed to keep getting up over and over again. Instead, from what John tells us we conclude that the rising up of that man means we have not as yet completely committed him to death. The old man yet lives and is yet that first time fighting being put to death.
We fail to see that we have only lain the old man down to die but have not yet gone as far as killing him. That is why we are able to keep taking his hand again and again, lifting him back up as he calls to us.
And that is Johns point. It is about being honest with ourselves about how committed we really are. And if we would be honest about it and continue to try to strengthen our commitment, then we are making progress.
That is what Paul meant when he said, "not as though I have already attained." He had to stretch forward. Stay committed to the process of growth in Christ.
One does not plant a seed and then poof, there is a plant.
I understand the point, but it's still not something we can measure like how man's progressive models work. It's sort of like an old saying at my work, "One awh shucks can mess up a lot of at-a-boys". I see some brethren go down the path of guilt so hard after they have a little mess-up, that it takes them a long time to get back in the race. And it can involve something simple.
Well, Apostle Paul gave admonitions to do righteousness in much of his Epistles. But in Romans 7 he wrote as a consolation so we'd understand when after trying real hard, we still find ourselves at times messing up. He didn't give that so as to make us lose hope, but to help strengthen our Faith in staying in the race until it's over. So then who can be just in measuring our progress? Really our Lord Jesus only can. That's one of the reasons He gave us His Holy Writ and The Holy Spirit to know it.
I recall a pastor of a certain TV ministry years ago who was publically exposed in a sin with prostitutes he'd been dealing with. His wife forgave him, many of his congregation forgave him, but then others didn't. So that was a step backwards in his progression of overcoming sin IF we were to judge like that, but was it really a setback? If he asking Christ, his family, and brethren for forgiveness, and turned away from the sin, then that could only make him a stronger servant if he kept to the plough. So just where does measure of progress regarding sin come in? It's like Paul taught Romans 7, he had not known sin except by being convicted of sin by the law.
He is bringing it now as he teaches us the pure language. And like learning any language we get better at speaking it over time (if we stay committed to learning it). Zephaniah 3:9 is happening now and many are going to weep that they miss the boat (the ark of salvation which is Christ). There are many that speak about as if they have gotten aboard but they are delighted so much to stand outside and just talk about it that they never actually do get aboard. The pure language is learned aboard that ark, not outside of it. And as it took a year of days and nights for Noah's ark to come to rest, all during that time we are being taught for the purpose of growing.
Sorry, I don't see the Zeph.3:9 Scripture as happening now; it's set for after Christ's return, for His future Millennial reign. It's about all... peoples going back to speak the one tongue that was spoken prior to Babel, which was most likely some form of ancient Hebrew.
Zeph 3:8-9
8 Therefore wait ye upon Me, saith the LORD, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for My determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them Mine indignation, even all My fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of My jealousy.
9 For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve Him with one consent.
(KJV)
The King James Bible which was influenced (probably unknown to its translators) by a certain amount of heresy leaves the word "salvation" off of 1 Peter 2:2 which actually says: "As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby to salvation."
It becomes obvious when we observe people that old ideas die hard. People tend to hang onto what they were taught and to seek defense for it. Mormon/Psychologist Stephen Covey refers to that as paradigms. A person's previous experiences form their beliefs and those beliefs shape how they see things like wearing tinted glasses.
So because of the belief that salvation is secured from the moment they say "I believe in Christ", many will defend the KJV for leaving "to salvation" out of 1 Peter 2:2.
The silliness of that is that they think the know more than the many other educated Bible translators whose consciences would not let them do that.
Noticing these little things is why I feel even the KJV translators were sincere. They are just subject to the sway of forces as us all.
My point is that the idea that our salvation becomes irrevocably sealed in Christ is false. But that is a whole other discussion. It does shape how we see many other discussions, though.
I really don't read all that into their leaving off Greek soteria in the passage. The context of the milk and new babes Peter mentioned is enough to know he was speaking of the same things Paul did about Salvation (1 Cor.3; Heb.5 in contrast to the "strong meat".)
And what were those things? Well in 1 Cor.3 one of the things it involved was brethren allowing the false working of division created by following men's doctrines, relying on their carnal thinking. In Heb.5, it was about Paul's rebuke of brethren that should have matured to the "strong meat", but were still sucking on the 'milk' instead, being 'unskillful in The Word' and not having the senses exercised towards discernment.
I agree, that's about the idea of growing in Christ, but it's accompanied with the idea of wisdom and understanding in His Word. Sadly, most Churches don't preach the "strong meat", but mostly still the 'milk'. If a Church that covers God's Word as written to the congregation, from Genesis through the end of Revelation, chapter by chapter and line upon line, then THAT Church is going to be on the "strong meat".
I agree with you on that. I have vigorously protested Jehovah's Witnesses making it about our flesh and blood bodies. What that healing is, is the death of that carnality. That takes our physical body out from under slavery to it and thus out from under slavery to sin.
I still prefer how the KJV renders this idea connected with our flesh bodies...
Rom 6:5-8
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of His death, we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him:
(KJV)
That's making a clear pointer to our flesh bodies as being that "body of sin" that is to be destroyed. Whatever glory we have now in Christ while still in our flesh, it's not comparable to the glory that will be revealed in us when Christ comes to redeem our spirit and soul with our putting on the body of the resurrection. That is... what I concentrate on in hope. My main hope for this present state and world, is that many more will believe The Gospel of Jesus Christ and be saved. But as for hope of my flesh, or the things of this world, it's all going to perish. And per the present signs, we don't have much longer to go for that to occur on the day of The LORD.
Yes. I think it is there for us both but for the fine tuning. And as that fine tuning occurs we come closer and closer to speaking that one pure language among us. The language of God. (which I muse that 1 Corinthians 13: 1 is referring to as the tongues of angels.)
I like talking to you. The discussions are edifying.
Thanks, I enjoy it too.