BeforeThereWas
Active Member
No. Their Jesus never existed. Their Jesus was a created being, which has no similarity to the biblical Jesus. I was a Mormon for 12 years and so am well acquainted with their beliefs.
BTW
Does the "husband of one wife" requirement mean that polygamy was common in the early church?
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No. Their Jesus never existed. Their Jesus was a created being, which has no similarity to the biblical Jesus. I was a Mormon for 12 years and so am well acquainted with their beliefs.
BTW
soberxp
Well-Known Member
Perhaps they are right concerning creation, for He was created to save us, rather than having been intended to save sinners from the beginning of His existence. This is a logical way of thinking. What else? Everything would be meaningless.
BeforeThereWas
Active Member
Actually, no. Christ had no beginning. He is, was and always will be self-existant. The physical body He inhabited did have a beginning, but the Son Himself had no beginning, and He was not the result of celestial sex on the planet Colob somewhere out there in space.
BTW
scroll thru the book Mormon Doctrine, blood atonement, Jesus, Salvation
The Mormon Doctrine of Deity: The Roberts-Van Der Donckt Discussion by Roberts
Free kindle book and epub digitized and proofread by volunteers.
Real Christians believe that all was created out of nothing. LDS believe that matter is eternal, and god played with it like clay to make stufff.
“And as I prayed, the heavens were opened, and I saw the woman whom I had desired saluting me from the sky, and saying, ‘Hail, Hermas!’ And looking up to her, I said, ‘Lady, what are you doing here?’ And she answered me, ‘I have been taken up here to accuse you of your sins before the Lord.’ ‘Lady,’ said I, ‘are you to be the subject of my accusation?’ ‘No,’ said she, ‘but hear the words which I am going to speak to you. God, who dwells in the heavens, and made out of nothing the things that exist, and multiplied and increased them on account of his holy Church, is angry with you for having sinned against me.’” (The Shepherd 1:1:1 [A.D. 80]).
“Believe first of all that God is one, that he created all things and set them in order and brought out of nonexistence into existence everything that is, and that he contains all things while he himself is uncontained” (ibid., 2:1:1).
“And first, they [the prophets of God] taught us with one consent that God made all things out of nothing; for nothing was co-eternal with God: but he being his own place, and wanting nothing, and existing before the ages, willed to make man by whom he might be known; for him [man], therefore, he prepared the world. For he that is created is also needy; but he that is uncreated stands in need of nothing” (ibid., 2:10).
“And as I prayed, the heavens were opened, and I saw the woman whom I had desired saluting me from the sky, and saying, ‘Hail, Hermas!’ And looking up to her, I said, ‘Lady, what are you doing here?’ And she answered me, ‘I have been taken up here to accuse you of your sins before the Lord.’ ‘Lady,’ said I, ‘are you to be the subject of my accusation?’ ‘No,’ said she, ‘but hear the words which I am going to speak to you. God, who dwells in the heavens, and made out of nothing the things that exist, and multiplied and increased them on account of his holy Church, is angry with you for having sinned against me.’” (The Shepherd 1:1:1 [A.D. 80]).
“Believe first of all that God is one, that he created all things and set them in order and brought out of nonexistence into existence everything that is, and that he contains all things while he himself is uncontained” (ibid., 2:1:1).
Aristides
“Let us proceed, then, O king, to the elements themselves, so that we may demonstrate concerning them that they are not gods, but corruptible and changeable things, produced out of the nonexistent by him that is truly God, who is incorruptible and unchangeable and invisible, but who sees all things and changes them and alters them as he wills” (Apology 4 [A.D. 140]).Theophilus of Antioch
“Furthermore, inasmuch as God is uncreated, he is also unchangeable; so also, if matter were uncreated, it would be unchangeable and equal to God. That which is created is alterable and changeable, while that which is uncreated is unalterable and unchangeable. What great thing were it, if God made the world out of existing matter? Even a human artist, when he obtains material from someone, makes of it whatever he pleases. But the power of God is made evident in this, that he makes whatever he pleases out of what does not exist, and the giving of life and movement belongs to none other but to God alone” (To Autolycus 2:4 [A.D. 181]).“And first, they [the prophets of God] taught us with one consent that God made all things out of nothing; for nothing was co-eternal with God: but he being his own place, and wanting nothing, and existing before the ages, willed to make man by whom he might be known; for him [man], therefore, he prepared the world. For he that is created is also needy; but he that is uncreated stands in need of nothing” (ibid., 2:10).
Irenaeus
“Men, indeed, are not able to make something from nothing, but only from existing material. God, however, is greater than men first of all in this: that when nothing existed beforehand, he called into existence the very material for his creation” (Against Heresies 2:10:4 [A.D. 189]).Tertullian
“The object of our worship is the one God, who, by the Word of his command, by the reason of his plan, and by the strength of his power, has brought forth from nothing for the glory of his majesty this whole construction of elements, bodies, and spirits; whence also the Greeks have bestowed upon the world the name Cosmos” (Apology 17:1 [A.D. 197]).“There is, however, a rule of faith; and so that we may acknowledge at this point what it is we defend, it is this precisely that we believe: There is one only God and none other besides him, the creator of the world who brought forth all things out of nothing through his Word, first of all sent forth” (The Demurrer Against the Heretics 13:1 [A.D. 200]).
“He is the unique God for this reason alone, that he is the sole God, and he is the sole God for this reason alone, that nothing existed along with him. So too he must be the first, because all else is after him. All else is after him because all else is from him and from him because they are created out of nothing” (Against Hermogenes 17:1 [A.D. 203]).
Hippolytus
“Then shall the righteous answer . . . You are the ever-living One. You are without beginning, like the Father, and co-eternal with the Spirit. You are he who made all things out of nothing’” (Discourse on the End of the World 43 [A.D. 217]).“On the first day God made what he made out of nothing. But on the other days he did not make out of nothing, but out of what he had made on the first day, by molding it according to his pleasure” (Fragment from The Six Days Work [A.D. 217]).
Origen
“The specific points which are clearly handed down through the apostolic preaching are these: First, that there is one God who created and arranged all things and who, when nothing existed, called all things into existence” (The Fundamental Doctrines 1:0:4 [A.D. 225]).Cyprian of Carthage
“[The mother of the seven Maccabean martyrs said:] ‘O son, pity me that bore you [nine] months in the womb, and gave you milk for three years, and nourished you and brought you up to this age; I pray you, O son, look upon the heaven and the earth; and having considered all the things which are in them, understand that out of nothing God made these things and the human race. Therefore, O son, do not fear that executioner; but being made worthy of your brethren, receive death, that in the same mercy I may receive you with your brethren’” (Exhortation to Martyrdom 11 [A.D. 253]).Methodius
“n fact out of nothing, man is brought into being, [so] how much rather shall man spring again into being out of a previously existing man? For it is not so difficult to make anything anew after it has once existed and fallen into decay, as to produce out of nothing that which has never existed” (Discourse on the Resurrection 1:14 [A.D. 300]).“[A]ll things are placed under you [God] as their cause and author, as he who brought all things into being out of nothing, and gave to what was unstable a firm coherence; as the connecting band and preserver of that which has been brought into being; as the framer of things by nature different; as he who, with wise and steady hand, holds the helm of the universe; as the very principle of all good order; as the unchallengeable bond of concord and peace” (Oration on Simeon and Anna 6 [A.D. 305])
Lactantius
“[One is foolish to think] the one God, who had power to create the universe, is also unable to govern that which he has created. But if he conceives in his mind how great is the immensity of that divine work, when before it was nothing, yet that by the power and wisdom of God it was made out of nothing—a work which could only be commenced and accomplished by one—he will now understand that that which has been established by one is much more easily governed by one” (Divine Institutes 1:3 [A.D. 307]).“Let no one inquire of what materials God made those so great and wonderful works, for he made all things out of nothing. Without wood, a carpenter will build nothing, because the wood itself he is not able to make. Not to be able is a quality of weak humanity. But God himself makes his own material, because he is able. To be able is a quality of God, and, were he not able, neither would he be God. Man makes things out of what already exists, because he is . . . of limited and moderate power. God makes things from what does not exist, because he is strong; because of his strength, his power is immeasurable, having neither end nor limitation, like the life itself of the maker” (ibid., 2:8:8).
Alexander of Alexandria
“[T]he Word by which the Father formed all things out of nothing, was begotten of the true Father himself” (Letters on the Arian Heresy 1:11 [A.D. 326]).The Apostolic Constitutions
“He raises all men up by his will, as not wanting any assistance. For it is the work of the same power to create the world and to raise the dead. And then he made man, who was not a man before, of different parts, giving to him a soul made out of nothing. But now he will restore the bodies, which have been dissolved, to the souls that are still in being: for the rising again belongs to things laid down, not to things which have no being. He therefore that made the original bodies out of nothing, and fashioned various forms of them, will also again revive and raise up those that are dead” (Apostolic Constitutions 5:1:7 [A.D. 400]).“For you [Father] are eternal knowledge, everlasting sight, unbegotten hearing, untaught wisdom, the first by nature, and the measure of being, and beyond all number; who brought all things out of nothing into being by your only begotten Son, but begot him before all ages by your will, your power, and your goodness, without any instrument, the only begotten Son, God the Word” (ibid., 8:2:12).
Augustine
“O Lord, who are not one thing in one place, and otherwise in another, but the selfsame, and the selfsame, and the selfsame? Holy, holy, holy, Lord God almighty, did in the beginning, which is of you, in your wisdom, which was born of your substance, create something, and that out of nothing. For you did create heaven and earth, not out of thyself, for then they would be equal to your only-begotten [Son], and thereby even to you; and in no wise would it be right that anything should be equal to you which was not of you. And nothing else except you there was not whence you might create these things, O God, one Trinity, and triune unity; and, therefore, out of nothing did you create heaven and earth” (Confessions 12:7 [A.D. 400]).“[T]hough God formed man of the dust of the earth, yet the earth itself, and every earthly material, is absolutely created out of nothing; and man’s soul, too, God created out of nothing, and joined to the body, when he made man” (The City of God 14:11 [A.D. 419]).
Creatio ex nihilo - Wikipedia
Wisdom 1:14 - Bible Gateway
. . Look at the heaven and the earth and see everything that is in them, and recognize that God did not make them out of things that existed. Thus also mankind comes into being” (2 Maccabees 7:22-21,28).
www.ncregister.com
www.catholic.com
faithgateway.com
Creation Ex Nihilo is in the Bible
“Scripture bears witness to faith in creation ‘out of nothing’ as a truth full of promise and hope.” (CCC 297)
What the Early Church Believed: Creation out of Nothing
From the beginning of Christian history, the people of God have held to the principle that God created everything that exists out of nothing.
Did God Create Everything Out of Nothing?
Editor’s Note: It has been said that the Bible is so shallow that a beginner can grasp its truths, and at the same time so deep that the wisest of theologians can never find the bottom. Some questions will not be answered until we are with the Lord. For now we must walk by faith. Other questions...
faithgateway.com
Hebrew was one on my first languages. Genessis 1:1 is about God creating matter out of nothing. The following verses is God being the potter to shape everything from the matter he created.
soberxp
Well-Known Member
So God hated those people and claimed that these things were all they had.
God does not hate those in false religions, He wants them to come to the truth.
Deborah_:
Can you point me in the direction of a book that argues polygamy was common in Crete?
Deborah_
Well-Known Member
My commentary on 1 Timothy & Titus (by John Stott) says that although Roman law banned polygamy it was nevertheless widely practised in various parts of the empire.
And remember that the Jews allowed polygamy, and that Jewish converts would also be in the churches. Because of their background knowledge of Scripture, they would be prime candidates for eldership.
I have noticed in the post temple Christian church that the triad evolved into the trinity doctrine. Ignatius was one of the first to believe Jesus created the universe, but Justin Martyr was the first to take the divine stoic logos and create Metatron as part of the Triad. Reading Justin, one cannot escape that [the] Roman version of the Holy Spirit was not the first.
And we all know Polycarp didn't believe anything Cerinthus/Valentinus believed.
And we all know Polycarp didn't believe anything Cerinthus/Valentinus believed.
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Do you agree that doctrine is man-made?
An attempt to codify what the scriptures are saying.
The doctrine is man made and started with the gentile Valentinus.
Thanks.
I meant doctrine in general.
Doesn't the story of doubting Thomas indicate an awareness of Christ's deity by the Apostles?
John 20:28 NIV
Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
No, polygamy was not common in ancient Crete or the wider ancient Greek world. Monogamy was the established legal and social norm for marriage and the production of legitimate children. from AI.
Polygamy (from the Greek polygamos, often married) refers to a person who is married to multiple spouses. The term includes polygyny (from the Greek polygynes, having many wives), which refers to a man with several wives.
Polygamy remained legal in the Hellenistic period. Ben Sira, who wrote his book of wisdom ca. 185 BCE in Jerusalem, recognized the problems of disharmony and jealousy between wives and their negative impact on the family: “a woman jealous of another woman is but heartache and grief, and the scourging tongue affects everyone” (Sir 26:5-6; see also Sir 37:11). Josephus, in the first century CE, records a few cases of polygamy in the royal house and justifies them by appealing to the old Israel tradition. In his account of the marriages of Herod and his relatives, Josephus states: “For it is our ancestral custom that a man have several wives at the same time” (Ant. 17.14; J.W. 1.477). Some cases are also attested among the priestly families (Life 75). Philo describes a man who had two wives (Virtues 22.115) and another who had children by three wives because of his hope of multiplying his race (Virtues 38.207). Rabbinic writings mention polygamy in legal discussions (m. Ketub. 10:5; m. Ker. 3:7) and permit eighteen wives for kings (m. Sanh. 2:4). Some cases of bigamy in well-off families are also recorded (t. Yebam.1:10; Sukkah 27a).
However, given that the practice of monogamy is recommended in many rabbinic texts and that not a single case of bigamy is attested among the rabbis themselves, it may be assumed that monogamy was the widespread norm. Prohibitions against the practice found at Qumran support this assumption (CD IV, 20–V, 2), but evidence found in the Babatha archive, in Naḥal Ḥever near the Dead Sea, suggests otherwise. For instance, a second century CE Greek papyrus describes disputes between Babatha and Miriam, the two wives of Yehuda, after his death. Moreover, polygamy was declared illegal among Jews by the emperor Theodosius I in 393 CE, which suggests that the practice was still prevalent at the time, even if it was outlawed thereafter.
Polygamy in the Hellenistic Period - Bible Odyssey
There is evidence that polygamy was practiced by Jews in the Hellenistic period, although it was accepted by some and rejected by others.
www.bibleodyssey.org
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