Does the Old Testament teach a pagan religion that Jesus came to overthrow?

[HealthyShape]

Probably not a good idea to think any of that is infallible.
- Depending on humankind to determine the leading of the Holy Spirit
- Trusting in man-made creeds decided in human councils
- Allowing sectarian theologians and churches to decide what to use and what to ignore in the Bible

You've asked @Soyeong to defend their position, which they have done.
That should be enough. You are about to resort to nastiness in your defense.
If you haven't crossed the line already.

Bible is as man-made as the ecumenical creeds or as the church as such. Such labeling would not help us.

The Church is the bride of Christ and as such has the authority to teach. Private individuals outside of the Church do not have this God given authority.

 

[Soyeong]

It was a wrong question. I explained to you how it is in reality.

Do ecumenical creeds, Christian Church since early times and the New Testament support the position that the Psalms express a correct view of obeying the Torah that the Jesus and the Apostles were in agreement with?

This is also a wrong question. The situation is different, it is not like this.

Do ecumenical creeds, Christian Church since early times and the New Testament support the position that Jesus and the Apostles thought that we should only follow what they said but not what they considered to be an authoritative source?

We are to follow the Holy Spirit in church, which leads to ecumenical creeds and explains how to understand the New Testament, how to work with the Old Testament, what from the life of Jesus or from the life of apostles is for us today etc.

Do ecumenical creeds, Christian Church since early times and the New Testament support the position that the Holy Spirit has the role of leading us to obey what God has commanded?

Πᾶς ὁ ποιῶν τὴν ἁμαρτίαν καὶ τὴν ἀνομίαν ποιεῖ, καὶ ἡ ἁμαρτία ἐστὶν ἡ ἀνομία.
1 J 3:4

Find the word "Torah" and color it red. Thanks.

It is using Greek rather than Hebrew, but that is how the Greek refers to the transgression of Torah. Likewise, Romans 3:20 is clearly referring to the Torah as being how we have knowledge of what sin is and Romans 7:7 is clearly referring to the Torah by saying that we would not even know what sin is if not for it. There are not other options for how else the Israelites were given knowledge of what sin is.

The authority is in the Church through the living Spirit of God - the Holy Spirit. It is not in some rigid ancient collection of writings randomly interpreted by private individuals. Bible is a useful tool, but Church explains how to use it.

The bottom line is that we must obey God rather than man, so if you think that the ecumenical creeds, Christian Church since early times and the New Testament have spoken against obeying something that God has commanded, then you should either conclude that you must have misunderstood them or that you should follow God instead of them. If it comes down to a choice, then we should be quicker to disregard everything that any man has said than to disregard anything that God has commanded, but the reality is that servants of God should not be interpreted as speaking against obeying what He has commanded.

 

[St. SteVen]

Bible is as man-made as the ecumenical creeds or as the church as such. Such labeling would not help us.

The Church is the bride of Christ and as such has the authority to teach. Private individuals outside of the Church do not have this God given authority.

Do you mean that only government-ordained ministers should teach the Bible?

 

[HealthyShape]

Do you mean that only government-ordained ministers should teach the Bible?

Church-ordained. Church is given the Holy Spirit, not governments.

 

[HealthyShape]

Do ecumenical creeds, Christian Church since early times and the New Testament support the position that the Psalms express a correct view of obeying the Torah that the Jesus and the Apostles were in agreement with?

Depends on what the Psalms express. If the Psalms are in line with the New Testament apostolic teachings, then yes. If no, then no.

Do ecumenical creeds, Christian Church since early times and the New Testament support the position that Jesus and the Apostles thought that we should only follow what they said but not what they considered to be an authoritative source?

Depends on the specific case. I think it is clear also to you that plenty of the New Testament teaching is either independent on the Jewish Torah or even against it.

Do ecumenical creeds, Christian Church since early times and the New Testament support the position that the Holy Spirit has the role of leading us to obey what God has commanded?

Yes, this is why the orthodox churches do not keep Sabbath, for example. Christians are not lead by the Holy Spirit to do that.

It is using Greek rather than Hebrew, but that is how the Greek refers to the transgression of Torah.

This is just your private interpretation. Anybody can say the opposite and who decides? The Church.

The bottom line is that we must obey God rather than man, so if you think that the ecumenical creeds, Christian Church since early times and the New Testament have spoken against obeying something that God has commanded, then you should either conclude that you must have misunderstood them or that you should follow God instead of them. If it comes down to a choice, then we should be quicker to disregard everything that any man has said than to disregard anything that God has commanded, but the reality is that servants of God should not be interpreted as speaking against obeying what He has commanded.

God is in the Church, not in the Old Testament commandments. God can make obsolete any previous commandment and He can make bounding any new one.

 

[St. SteVen]

Church-ordained. Church is given the Holy Spirit, not governments.

Legal Recognition of Ordination​

Legal recognition for an ordained minister, particularly regarding the authority to solemnize marriages, varies by jurisdiction. Because marriage laws are governed by individual states and local governments, some areas require ministers to register with a local office, such as a county or city clerk, before they can perform ceremonies. This process ensures the officiant is recognized by the local government as having the authority to sign a marriage license.

Since registration requirements are not the same everywhere, you should always check with the local government office in the area where the ceremony will be held. They can provide information on whether you need to submit a specific application or pay a registration fee to be added to the list of authorized officiants. Some jurisdictions may also ask to see proof of your ordination, such as a certificate or a letter from your ordaining body. SOURCE

 

[HealthyShape]

Legal Recognition of Ordination​

Legal recognition for an ordained minister, particularly regarding the authority to solemnize marriages, varies by jurisdiction. Because marriage laws are governed by individual states and local governments, some areas require ministers to register with a local office, such as a county or city clerk, before they can perform ceremonies. This process ensures the officiant is recognized by the local government as having the authority to sign a marriage license.

Since registration requirements are not the same everywhere, you should always check with the local government office in the area where the ceremony will be held. They can provide information on whether you need to submit a specific application or pay a registration fee to be added to the list of authorized officiants. Some jurisdictions may also ask to see proof of your ordination, such as a certificate or a letter from your ordaining body. SOURCE

What does the recognition to legally marry people have to do with anything? Sounds like some random piece of information.

 

[St. SteVen]

What does the recognition to legally marry people have to do with anything? Sounds like some random piece of information.

Legal recognition of ministerial ordination is required by the government.

 

[HealthyShape]

Legal recognition of ministerial ordination is required by the government.

For the actions that are legally bounding, i.e. related to the state's recognition of such actions. Irrelevant for our conversation.

 

[St. SteVen]

For the actions that are legally bounding, i.e. related to the state's recognition of such actions. Irrelevant for our conversation.

Do you mean that only church-ordained ministers should teach the Bible?

HealthyShape said:
Bible is as man-made as the ecumenical creeds or as the church as such. Such labeling would not help us.
The Church is the bride of Christ and as such has the authority to teach. Private individuals outside of the Church do not have this God given authority.

 

[HealthyShape]

Do you mean that only church-ordained ministers should teach the Bible?

They have the church-given authority to teach the Bible. Private individuals do not have this authority and create all kind of private nonsense which we can see also on this discussion board. Not only nonsense, but frequently even in direct contradiction to well-established Christian doctrines.

 

[St. SteVen]

They have the church-given authority to teach the Bible. Private individuals do not have this authority and create all kind of private nonsense which we can see also on this discussion board. Not only nonsense, but frequently even in direct contradiction to well-established Christian doctrines.

Perhaps private individuals shouldn't even read the Bible?
For fear that they may disagree with the church once they had the facts.

I'm recovering from what the church taught.
Which denominations do you recognize as the Body of Christ?

 

[HealthyShape]

Perhaps private individuals shouldn't even read the Bible?

Depends on what they do with the Bible.

Which denominations do you recognize as the Body of Christ?

All that accept the basic tenets of Christianity. Those that accept the New Testament, the ecumenical creeds and the apostolic teachings as found/explained in the early church writings. Those who also lead to live a holy life and seek the Holy Spirit in their affairs.

 

[Soyeong]

Depends on what the Psalms express. If the Psalms are in line with the New Testament apostolic teachings, then yes. If no, then no.

Do ecumenical creeds, Christian Church since early times and the New Testament affirm the truth of everything in the Bible as Scripture? If so, then no part should be interpreted as contradicting another part.

Did the Apostates treat the Psalms as being an authoritative source? If so, then the Apostles should not be interpreted as expressing views that are contrary to what they considered to be an authoritative source and we should not considered them to be more authoritative than what they considered to be an authoritative source.

Depends on the specific case. I think it is clear also to you that plenty of the New Testament teaching is either independent on the Jewish Torah or even against it.

According to what God instructed in Deuteronomy 13, it is either incorrect to interpret the Apostles as speaking against obeying the Torah or they were false prophets, but either way followers of Christ should follow his example of obedience to the Torah.

Yes, this is why the orthodox churches do not keep Sabbath, for example. Christians are not lead by the Holy Spirit to do that.

God has commanded to keep the Sabbath holy (Exodus 20:8-11), so if you affirm that the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey what God has commanded, then part of that includes the Spirit leading us to keep the Sabbath holy. In Romans 8:4-7, Paul contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Law of God.

This is just your private interpretation. Anybody can say the opposite and who decides? The Church.

Do ecumenical creeds, Christian Church since early times and the New Testament ttake the position that God neglected to teach the Israelites what sin is? If not, then by what means did God teach the Israelites about sin is if not through the Torah? If God taught what sin is through the Torah, then the fact that Jesus was sinless means that he set a perfect example of how to walk in obedience it. Do ecumenical creeds, Christian Church since early times and the New Testament take the position that followers of Christ should follow his example of refraining from sin?

God is in the Church, not in the Old Testament commandments. God can make obsolete any previous commandment and He can make bounding any new one.

God's character traits are eternal, so any instructions that He has given for how to embody His character traits are eternally and cumulatively valid. For example, God's righteousness is eternal (Psalms 119:142), therefore all of God's righteous laws are eternal (Psalms 119:160), and if the way to embody God's righteousness were to ever change, then God's righteousness would not be eternal. For example, being a doer of charity was a way to embody God's righteousness before God made any covenants with man, so that is an eternally valid way to know God regardless of which covenant someone is under.

 

[HealthyShape]

Do ecumenical creeds, Christian Church since early times and the New Testament affirm the truth of everything in the Bible as Scripture? If so, then no part should be interpreted as contradicting another part.

Have you noticed that Christians are not stoning anybody, do not keep Sabbath, do not keep the dietary laws of the Mosaic Laws, do not practice "an eye for an eye" etc? Because the Old Testament became obsolete with the coming of Christ. You will find this confirmed in the New Testament, in the early church writings and in the mainstream churches.

Did the Apostates treat the Psalms as being an authoritative source? If so, then the Apostles should not be interpreted as expressing views that are contrary to what they considered to be an authoritative source and we should not considered them to be more authoritative than what they considered to be an authoritative source.

The apostles used the Scriptures from the Old Testament to prove that Jesus is Christ or to support Christian teachings or to illustrate a point. The rest of the Old Testament was not used as authoritative, for example nobody was forced to keep Sabbath or to practice dietary laws of the Old Testament. I do not know why you focus so much on Psalms, there are 150/151 of them and only few verses are used in the New Testament.

Do ecumenical creeds, Christian Church since early times and the New Testament ttake the position that God neglected to teach the Israelites what sin is?
If not, then by what means did God teach the Israelites about sin is if not through the Torah?

The Old Testament was given to Israelites as a preparation for Christ. After Christ, we are taught by Christ and by the Holy Spirit, it is a new teaching like a new wine, as illustrated by Christ.

Do ecumenical creeds, Christian Church since early times and the New Testament take the position that followers of Christ should follow his example of refraining from sin?

We should refrain from sin, as the Holy Spirit leads us in our modern life and in our individual situations. We are not under any Torah.

God's character traits are eternal, so any instructions that He has given for how to embody His character traits are eternally and cumulatively valid.

Torah was not intended to be eternally valid. You just do not read the New Testament (and the Old Testament, even) properly.

This is why it is so important to be a part of the Church, individuals do not have the capacity to read, remember, understand and put everything together. And to test it in real life. The body of the Church had 2,000 years for that.