Does Understanding Eschatology Prove You Are Saved?

[Spiritual Israelite]

• Christ Jesus is the Savior of all people, the world, in the sense that it is possible for all to be saved because of His act of redemption.

I don't know why you are saying this when it does not seem to line up with your Calvinist beliefs. Do you really think it's genuinely possible for those who you think are born totally depraved to be saved when you believe that only those who God gives repentance and faith are saved? How exactly do you think it's possible for all people to be saved when, at the same time, you believe only those who are given repentance and faith can be saved? How is it possible for the rest who are not given repentance and faith to be saved in your view?

• Christ Jesus is the Savior of only the elect in the sense that the elect are the ones given to them by the Father, of whom He will not lose one, but raise him/them up on the last day.

As the prophet Joel says, relating the words of God Himself, God "pours His Spirit out on all flesh" (Joel 2:28), and "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved" (Joel 2:32a). However, God says, "For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the Lord has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the Lord calls." That word 'for' irrefutably indicates that what came before ~ "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved" ~ is dependent on... because of... is a consequence of... what comes after, which is, "among the survivors shall be those whom the Lord calls." So to say that clearly, those who do call on the name of the Lord will be the ones whom the Lord calls; in that sense and that sense only, yes, everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. Not everyone is called in this way by God. Not all are the recipients of God's mercy and compassion and saving grace. And this is exactly what Paul says in Romans 8 through 11 and Ephesians 1 and 2, especially. The rest are given over to their own selfish passions and desires, because they have exchanged the truth for a lie ~ even though God has clearly made known all that can be known about Him in all of creation ~ and therefore have no excuse (Romans 1).

In order to "have no excuse" for not exchanging the truth for a lie, it has to be possible that they could have chosen instead to not exchange the truth for a lie. But, in terms of the non-elect, you do not believe it was possible that they genuinely and legitimately could have chosen to not exchange the truth for a lie. So, it does not seem like you are saying things that truly line up with your Calvinist beliefs.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Hey. Spiritual Israelite. Answer me this, and the follow-up, if you will:

Do you pray for the salvation of others?

If yes, then... why?

Grace and peace to you.

I happened to see this, but I could have easily missed it. Do you not know how to tag people on here? If not, you use the @ key followed by the person's username.

Anyway, no, I don't pray for the salvation of others. Why would I do that when I believe in free will? That would be ridiculous because that would imply that I think salvation is entirely up to God's choice, which I obviously don't believe. I'm not really into contradicting my beliefs with my actions. What I will do is pray for God to help someone see their lost, sinful state and their need for a Savior, but I don't pray for God to just save someone without that person having a choice in the matter, which would contradict what I believe in terms of how salvation works.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Ah, yes, Judas, for sure. Yes, I "rememer" him. <smile> Certainly, we can all be devils from time to time... That God used Judas to accomplish His purposes and His will does not mean that he was not saved. If you disagree, then I understand, but there is nothing in Scripture, not even that Jesus said he was a devil, that suggests he was not saved.

Yes, there is.

Matthew 26:24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.

Surely, Jesus would never have said it would have been good for a saved person to never have been born. But, it makes sense to say that about an unsaved person since never existing is certainly better than eternal punishment.

Also, Jesus would never have called a saved person a devil like He did with Judas.

 

[TribulationSigns]

That is not true.

Yes, it is biblical truth!

After being given the truth by way of the word of God and the Holy Spirit speaking to one's heart, each person must choose how to respond.

Impossible! We have a choice of what shoes to wear, what to have for dinner, what path we travel to work, what music we listen to, but the choice to be saved or not be saved is not a choice that we have! It is God's Choice who is saved.

Romans 9:16

• "So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy."

What's that say? It is NOT of him that willeth, it is of God's Sovereign mercy on whomever He will! It's time you started taking God's Word seriously!

Scripture says "none seek after God:, yet also says "he rewards those who earnestly seek him".

Like so many professing Christians before you, you are reading but not hearing nor comprehending what you read.

John 15:16

• "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you."

What does that mean? It means they were Predesinated! Not that they chose Christ and He had preknowledge of it, but that they hadn't chosen Him, He chose them, ordained them, provided them, that they should bring forth fruit.

We can't choose to believe, because not one of us (without the drawing of God) would believe. And who will believe? There is no one who would believe of their own free choice because we are ALL gone out of the path where not one of us would choose to seek God and believe! As it is written:

Romans 3:10-12

• "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
• There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
• They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."

There are none that would believe and seek after God on their own apart from God's moving them to do so. We have to consider ALL parts of scripture and not just out-of-context verses. How is it that Christ says the unsaved are in 'bondage' wherein they serve sin as slaves or bondservants to it, and man, in essence, denies this saying our will is not in bondage, it is free? Were we in bondage to sin like God said, or were we free to serve God? Were there none that sought after God (like God said) or were some 'freely' seeking after God? Clearly, our belief is through grace, not our choice.

Acts 18:27

• "And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:"

It is by the power of God alone that anyone believes! Period! Not because he chose, but because he is chosen. And he is kept by that very same power of faith that was given him.

1st Peter 1:5

• " Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."

The verse in John saying whosoever believes shall not perish is just a statement of fact, not of choice! Whoever believes will have eternal life. Just as if I were to say whosoever has a ticket, will get into the arena. It doesn't mean anyone can get into the arena, it is merely addressing what is required, which is a ticket. Likewise, with this passage, belief is the requirement. If you believe you will not perish, but receive eternal life. And that belief is a gift of God given to those whom God has chosen!!!

Philippians 1:29

• "For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

You are the one lacking in understanding.

I do not think so at all. It's you who misunderstood and have been brainwashed by the false free will doctrine, thinking man, who dies in sin, has the will and power to come to Christ on his own. Nothing in Scripture will support your false belief!

Hold on now. Stop. You're saying they freely chose to disobey God? What do you think, that Adam and Eve had free will, but then no one else after them has had free will? If so, how does that make any sense?

You made all this up. It's not taught in scripture. The idea that Adam and Eve had free will, but no one else has is simply not taught in scripture anywhere.

Ahh... there are many things that you do not seem to understand. Back in Creation, we read everything good created is from God, and nothing evil. There's no debate, God created everything good and He saw it was all good, right? No debate, that's the end of it. In other words, that's the end of that discussion of what God created. EVERYTHING was good, nothing bad, nothing evil, No wicked Serpent put in the Garden to tempt Eve and/or Adam, etc., etc., All was good...

...But then man lusted after the fruit of the forbidden tree. He himself did that, not some spiritual fallen being from heaven, it was his own willful spirit wherein (like many today) he rationalized away God's law forbidding it. This rationalization is characterized by the Serpent asking him, "Hath God Said?" He rationalized away God's law in his own mind through lust for the fruit, and it was his own desire that took hold and brought forth his disobedient action. His Spirit became disobedient through this rationalization of the spirit and brought forth sin! The "very same" spirit that worked in every single one of us before we became saved! We also talked to that spirit and rationalized away God's laws wherein we willfully disobeyed.

Sure, we didn't call it an "evil spirit" because our evil spirit is the great deceiver. Every unsaved person has an unclean and disobedience spirit. They CAN'T come to Christ! None, no one! Because the spirit of disobedience, which is Satan, works in every single man, woman and child on earth that is not saved. There are about 7.6 billion people in the world. That mean there are billions of evil spirits of disobedience out there inhabiting mankind. So who created all these unclean spirits, fallen angels (so called), Devils, Demons or whatever you choose to call them?

Ephesians 2:2

• "Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:"

The children of disobedience is every unsaved person, and this spirit works in all of them, just as God's Word says it worked in all of us before we were saved. So the question is, is Satan a Omnipresent spirit being able to inhabit billions at one time? Because if not, then he cannot be this spirit of disobedience inhabiting billions of unsaved people. It has to be their own evil spirit.

You may wonder how it is that we created the enemy? Yes I can. It was by our willful spirit led disobedience, this spirit of disobedience we brought about by our desires. That spirit to disobey made, created or brought into existence sin, which made us the enemy of God. Indeed we did create the enemy, in alienating ourselves from God by spiritual warfare. This is why we cannot come to God on our own. But God destroyed that enemy, ended that war and made reconciliation with Him. And the last enemy He will destroy is death.

Colossians 1:21- 22

• "And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled.
• In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:"

Just as surely as we created sin against God, God has destroyed it making us dead to the law and unblameable. Now I said I could explain it, but I didn't say you would accept the explanation since you don't fully understand who Satan is and how he was created. We simply disagree. :)

 

[rwb]

I've made it quite clear that I believe God wants all people to be saved and that He offers salvation to all people.

Scripture does not speak of everlasting/eternal life being OFFERED! It speaks of the gift of everlasting/eternal life being GIVEN to whosoever believes on Christ! The gospel of the Kingdom of God, or the message/good news is OFFERED freely without distinction to humanity. Through the gospel message freely offered, whosoever hears through the power of the Spirit, by grace through faith shall be saved. We cannot confuse the message about the Kingdom of God through Christ, with the power of God to save whosoever believes according to His grace through the imputation of faith.

He wants all people to accept His Son and to be saved, but He does not force anyone to repent and believe.

If it were the will of God for humanity to accept Christ to be saved, then humanity would without exception repent, believe and be saved!

Do you understand that God has a will that can't be thwarted, but also has desires that He makes possible, but also makes man responsible to choose? An example of His will that can't be thwarted is that He determined He would send His Son to die for the sins of the whole world. There was nothing that was going to stop Him from doing that. He wants all people to accept His Son and to be saved, but He does not force anyone to repent and believe. Faith is not something that can be forced. Someone must willingly repent of their sins and put their trust in Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. If that is just something that God does for us, what is the point of that? Why didn't He just create only people with faith in that case?

This sounds to be based upon emotionalism but lacks even a single verse from Scripture. Why is that?

That is not true. After being given the truth by way of the word of God and the Holy Spirit speaking to one's heart, each person must choose how to respond. Nowhere does scripture teach that no one will ever freely choose to submit their lives to God after being presented with the truth.

Now you're agreeing that man MUST be born again with ability to spiritually hear the Holy Spirit in order for them to choose life in Christ. Apart from being supernaturally given ears to hear and hearts to respond man who is spiritually "dead in trespasses and sins" will NOT choose life through Christ. You either lack knowledge of fallen man's condition written in His Word, or you are ignoring the fact that men who are spiritually dead will NOT choose Christ for life. The natural will of fallen, spiritually dead man is not righteous, and will not seek God, they do only what the natural will, under the power of the Devil does.

None seek after God on their own without first hearing the word of God. But, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God (Romans 10:17). What about after someone hears the word of God?

Again, you show that you understand the condition of fallen, spiritually dead mankind! Does that sound like free will to seek and choose God for eternal life? After hearing the gospel of the Kingdom of God if hearing is through the power of the Holy Spirit in them, they shall be saved. Not because they made a free will choice to believe, but according to God's grace through faith imputed to that person through the power of the Holy Spirit. If God desires all of humanity to repent and believe why when hearing the gospel of the Kingdom of God does the vast majority of mankind remain in unbelief? Since faith comes by hearing, why isn't every ear hearing the gospel of the Kingdom of God eternally saved?

According to the passage Paul says Gentiles who had not heard the gospel of the Kingdom of God could not believe on Him who they had not heard of. For that reason, the gospel of the Kingdom of God was sent unto even them (ALL people, not Jews only). Through hearing of the name of the Lord, Gentiles as well as Jews of faith supernaturally believed on Christ for everlasting life. Had nothing to do with free-will! Salvation is of the Lord, for He is the power of life to those who believe according to grace through imputation of faith by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:13-21 (KJV) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

Scripture says "none seek after God:, yet also says "he rewards those who earnestly seek him". Do you just ignore Hebrews 11:6 in favor of Romans 3:9-10 or do you try to reconcile them in a way that they don't contradict each other?

The two passages are NOT contradictory! Apart from faith NONE seek God, and without faith NONE shall please God. Faith is obtained through supernatural power of the Spirit of Christ, according to grace, imputing faith into the hearts of fallen men. Before having this faith in them NONE of them seek after God. This faith is not attained in man through so-called free-will! It is attained through the power of God to whosoever He wills. Natural, fallen man, spiritually dead, has not ability to receive the things of the Spirit of God, they are foolishness unto them, neither can they know, because these things of God must be spiritually discerned.

Hebrews 11:6 (KJV) But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Ro 3:9b .....for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
Ro 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Ro 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

1 Corinthians 2:11-14 (KJV) For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Hold on now. Stop. You're saying they freely chose to disobey God? What do you think, that Adam and Eve had free will, but then no one else after them has had free will? If so, how does that make any sense?

Of course, our first parents were endowed with the free-will ability to choose to obey God or disobey Him! It's clear that our first parents lost the free-will ability to choose God and live forever. Because God blocked the way of the tree of life, leaving them without free-will ability to eat of it and live forever in their new fallen, spiritually dead natural man. From that day the way to the tree of life to live forever can be achieved only through Christ. The curse that resulted from their disobedience, that is sin, and death through sin was passed unto the whole human race. Leaving the whole human race without the ability of their own free-will to turn to Christ for everlasting life.

So, you don't really care about those who are not saved then? You think nothing of the fact that they, according to your doctrine, never even get a chance to be saved?

My concern is to build the spiritual Kingdom of God by proclaiming the gospel to humanity without distinction or exception! And whosoever has been ordained unto eternal life will believe in Christ for everlasting life.

Acts 13:48 (KJV) And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes, it is biblical truth!

Yet, you can't back up that opinion with any convincing arguments, so your opinion means nothing to me.

Impossible! We have a choice of what shoes to wear, what to have for dinner, what path we travel to work, what music we listen to, but the choice to be saved or not be saved is not a choice that we have! It is God's Choice who is saved.

Romans 9:16

• "So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy."

What's that say? It is NOT of him that willeth, it is of God's Sovereign mercy on whomever He will! It's time you started taking God's Word seriously!

This is what Calvinists do! They cherry pick scripture and draw conclusions from taking those cherry picked scripture out of context. Stop being foolish and start looking at ALL of scripture instead of your cherry picked scriptures.

You have no idea what that verse is saying. You interpret it in a way that contradicts other scripture. Other scriptures says that God wants to have mercy on all people.

Romans 11:30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

Who were the ones who were disobedient? All Israelites and all Gentiles. So, all people. God gave all people over to sin (all have sinned - Romans 3:23) and disobedience "that He might have mercy on all" people.

So, how do we reconcile Romans 9:16 with this passage (Romans 11:30-32) that you either ignore or twist to make it support your false doctrine? Very easily. God chose to have mercy on people because He is a merciful God. Man did not decide that God should have mercy on people. That was entirely God's choice. And He wants to have mercy on all people, so He gives all people the opportunity to receive His mercy. But, all people must use their God given free will to choose to repent and receive His mercy or not.

Like so many professing Christians before you, you are reading but not hearing nor comprehending what you read.

That's what I say to you. You have very little spiritual discernment, which is not surprising in relation to someone like you who doesn't believe in an actual being named Satan.

John 15:16

• "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you."

What does that mean? It means they were Predesinated! Not that they chose Christ and He had preknowledge of it, but that they hadn't chosen Him, He chose them, ordained them, provided them, that they should bring forth fruit.

LOL. Here you are proving your lack of discernment again. That is not in relation to being chosen to salvation. That is in relation to being chosen to be one of Christ's close apostles and disciples. Did you forget that He even chose Judas Iscariot, who He called a devil?

John 6:70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” 71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

So, you have a choice to make here. You can either acknowledge that verse is not related to salvation or you can still believe it relates to salvation, but then have to admit that one who is chosen to be saved can be lost, as Judas Iscariot was (John 17:12). So, which of those choices do you choose?

We can't choose to believe, because not one of us (without the drawing of God) would believe.

You're making that up in your imagination. Scripture never teaches this. Scripture repeatedly teaches that man is responsible to believe and put his trust in God. You try to take that responsibility away from man and thereby give an excuse to those who don't believe. Since you say they are not able to choose to believe, that would make a good excuse for not believing, but no one has any excuse for not believing. No one has any excuse for suppressing the truth in unrighteousness (Romans 1:18-21).

And who will believe? There is no one who would believe of their own free choice because we are ALL gone out of the path where not one of us would choose to seek God and believe! As it is written:

Romans 3:10-12

• "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
• There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
• They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."

There are none that would believe and seek after God on their own apart from God's moving them to do so.

Once again you have chosen to draw conclusions from one scripture passage that contradicts other scripture passages. You only look at part of the story instead of the whole story.

Of course, all are sinners (Romans 3:23), but what passage means is that none would seek after God if God did nothing to show them their need for Him. But, He does do that for all people. He speaks to people's hearts by way of His Holy Spirit, which the Jews who Stephen preached to and rebuked resisted (Acts 7:51) and He has the word of God preached to people (or they read it for themselves). At that point, people must choose to respond. You can't just say that no one ever seeks God or else the following verse would make no sense.

Hebrews 11:6 6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

How do you reconcile your belief that no one ever seeks God with this verse that says He rewards those who diligently seek Him? Why do you draw conclusions from Romans 3:10-12 without taking Hebrews 11:6 into consideration? What is your excuse for cherry picking scripture the way you do? Do you think you were just predestined to do that or what?

We have to consider ALL parts of scripture and not just out-of-context verses.

LOL! What an ironic statement coming from you! LOL!

How is it that Christ says the unsaved are in 'bondage' wherein they serve sin as slaves or bondservants to it, and man, in essence, denies this saying our will is not in bondage, it is free?

They place themselves in bondage to sin.

Do you believe that people are born totally depraved? If so, why does Paul teach in Romans 1:18-32 that people BECOME depraved without any excuse for that? He would not talk about people becoming depraved while suppressing the truth in unrighteousness and exchanging the truth for a lie if people were born that way. Scripture teaches that people have no excuse for that, but you give them an excuse by saying they are totally depraved and in bondage to sin from birth and there's nothing they can do about it. That blatantly contradicts many scriptures.

This is enough for now. I can only take so much of your nonsense at once.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Scripture does not speak of everlasting/eternal life being OFFERED!

Yes, it does! But, this is what I would expect someone to say who denies the God wants all people to repent (2 Peter 3:9, Acts 17:30) and to be saved (1 Timothy 2:3-6), as scripture teaches.

Titus 2:11 (NIV): For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.

If you object to this translation of the verse, you should realize that this is exactly what the verse means. But, if you prefer the KJV, we can look at that.

Titus 2:11 (KJV): For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

If the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all people, then it only follows that all people are given the opportunity to be saved by God's grace. But, I suppose you will try to say this is not referring to all people since you seem to think that scripture never refers to literally all people?

Also, there is the parable of Matthew 22:1-13 which compares the preaching of the gospel to an invitation to a wedding. So, how can you say that eternal life isn't offered when Matthew 22:1-13 figuratively illustrates salvation in relation to being invited to a wedding in order to be wed to Christ? The Jews were first invited/offered to accept the gospel of salvation and most of them rejected it and then the invitation/offer went to the Gentiles. Jesus portrayed salvation and eternal life as being something that God offers to people that they must choose to accept or reject. Why does God get angry at people and punish them for not accepting the invitation (Matthew 22:7) if they are not actually genuinely being offered salvation?

It speaks of the gift of everlasting/eternal life being GIVEN to whosoever believes on Christ!

Yes, it is a gift offered to everyone, but only given to whosoever chooses to believe on Christ. Are you somehow not aware that everyone needs to choose who they will serve?

Joshua 24:14 Now therefore fear the Lord, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the Lord. 15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

The gospel of the Kingdom of God, or the message/good news is OFFERED freely without distinction to humanity.

That's what I'm saying. Did you suddenly change your mind here?

Through the gospel message freely offered, whosoever hears through the power of the Spirit, by grace through faith shall be saved.

This is your problem. You think that God basically forces (makes, causes) people to believe and accept the gospel message, but scripture does not teach this. It teaches that it can be resisted, which implies that people must choose to accept or reject the gospel.

Acts 7:51 You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.

We cannot confuse the message about the Kingdom of God through Christ, with the power of God to save whosoever believes according to His grace through the imputation of faith.

The imputation of faith? You are making that up. Scripture never teaches such a thing as "the imputation of faith".

If it were the will of God for humanity to accept Christ to be saved, then humanity would without exception repent, believe and be saved!

How do you not know the difference between God's will and His desires? God's desires do not always come to fruition. Do you somehow not know that? Look at this passage...

Matthew 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate;

Can you see here that Jesus, who, of course, is God, wanted to gather the people of Jerusalem together "as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings", but they "were not willing". It wasn't God who wasn't willing, it was those Jews who rejected Christ. So, with this in mind, why do you act as if God's desires can never be thwarted? You need to differentiate between His sovereign will that cannot be thwarted and His desires.

This sounds to be based upon emotionalism but lacks even a single verse from Scripture. Why is that?

Much of what you are saying are your own words and not from scripture. Why is that?

But, what I said is based on scripture and I gave an example above to back up what I was talking about in Matthew 23:37-38.

Now you're agreeing that man MUST be born again with ability to spiritually hear the Holy Spirit in order for them to choose life in Christ.

I did not say that! Don't put words in my mouth. Read what I say and now what your imaginary strawman might be saying.

Faith comes before regeneration, not after. After we trust in Christ THEN we are sealed by the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:12-13). Those who trust in Christ then become children spiritually born of God (John 1:12-13).

Apart from being supernaturally given ears to hear and hearts to respond man who is spiritually "dead in trespasses and sins" will NOT choose life through Christ.

Where does scripture teach this? You talk about me basing things on emotionalism? You are sharing very little scripture in this long post compared to your own words to back up your opinions.

You do not understand what it means to be dead in trespasses and sins. It does not mean that a person is unable to recognize and acknowledge their lost, sinful state. Being dead in sins means you are separated from God. Death is separation. The death of the physical body is the separation of the soul and spirit from the body. Being dead in sins has nothing to do with what someone is or is not capable of doing.

Jesus taught that sinners are spiritually sick. Every Calvinist I talk to seems to completely ignore that.

Mark 2:15 Now it happened, as He was dining in Levi’s house, that many tax collectors and sinners also sat together with Jesus and His disciples; for there were many, and they followed Him. 16 And when the scribes and Pharisees saw Him eating with the tax collectors and sinners, they said to His disciples, “How is it that He eats and drinks with tax collectors and sinners?” 17 When Jesus heard it, He said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”

So, Jesus was dining in Levi's house with a bunch of tax collectors and sinners and the scribes and Pharisees questions why He would do that, thinking He should not waste time with such lowlifes (in their view). But, Jesus said He came to call those sinners who the Pharisees thought were not worth His time and attention, to repentance. This completely contradicts your doctrine! You believe that God just gives repentance only to some and the rest are not able to repent. But, Jesus called all those sinners He was dining with to repentance. He said He calls sinners in general to repentance and we know all people have sinned (Romans 3:23). So, He calls all people to repentance which lines up with the fact that God commands all people everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30).

Again, Jesus indicated that sinners are spiritually sick, not dead in the way you falsely think they are. Sick people are able to recognize and acknowledge that they are sick and can't heal themselves and need the physician to heal them instead without being supernaturally caused to do so. Have you never even considered what it means for sinners to be spiritually sick? Why do you seem as if you were somehow not even aware of that? You focus on them being dead in sin and draw false conclusions about what that means while seemingly ignoring or not being aware that they are also said to be spiritually sick. This post is probably getting close to 10,000 characters if it hasn't already, so I'll stop here and respond to the rest in another post.

 

[PinSeeker]

Right.
They were not Christians.....they were just Disciples..

I mean, you're welcome to your opinion, so yeah, fair enough. But originally you said they were apostles, which, well, some of them would be, but they were not yet apostles. Anyway, yeah, I say that if they were disciples of Jesus Christ, then they were believers, just like you and me.

So, to try to "elect" them as Christians, was a Calvinism misfire, as is always the case with this false doctrine.

Again, Calvinism Schmalvinism. It is what it is, regardless who advocated it. And, well, only God elects, in the sense of electing some unto salvation ~ therefore His elect, as Paul speaks of in Romans 9 ~ and not others.

Humm.
You dont seem to know anything about Salvation. @PinSeeker

In your... humble... opinion... <smile>

Let me show you a fact.

Ah! All ears. <smile>

Judas died before Jesus died on The Cross, so, there was no Salvation offered by Christ's Cross, before Judas died.

Okay, well, again, fair enough, but I disagree. The only difference between us and pre-cross believers is that they were looking forward to the Savior to come the cross ~ which was first alluded to by God in Genesis 3:15 ~ as opposed to we who are looking back on Him and it, but still, in both cases, Jesus's work on the cross accomplished their redemption. Both they/we were/are looking forward to His return and the resurrection, and the New Heaven and new Earth. If you don't see Jesus on pretty much every page of the Old Testament...

So, that means he was not able to receive what Jesus had accomplished on The Cross.

Disagree. By faith, which is God's assurance, and conviction by the Holy Spirit. Through this we are saved. Starting with Abraham and down through the ages to you and me.

So, Judas died lost. (unforgiven).

Again... you're welcome to your opinion. And I respect it. I agree in the sense that he knew he should not have done what he did, and even took his own life because of it; yes he was very lost in that respect. But I disagree that he was lost in God's eyes; there's nothing in Scripture that would give anyone cause to suppose that. There is, though, Jesus's word: "Did I not choose you, the twelve?" Yes, one of them ~ Judas, of course ~ was a devil. but you may remember John 13:2, where the devil had already put it into the heart of Judas to betray Jesus. And betray Jesus he did, a devilish thing. But this does nothing to prove any supposition that Judas was not a Christian. You actually might even say that God used Judas's actions to pave the way... at least the final bit of the way... to bring Jesus to the cross and ultimately His crucifixion and resurrection, thereby accomplishing salvation for us all and fulfilling the promise made to Adam and Eve in Genesis 3:15... for God's own glory.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

So we've talked about this, Spiritual Israelite, so, while there may be something here or there that I might respond to, for now, only this:

I don't know why you are saying this when it does not seem to line up with your Calvinist beliefs.

What you think are Calvinists beliefs. I mean that's the problem, as I have said several times to you. What you think are Calvinist beliefs ~ at least to a large degree ~ are not really Calvinist beliefs at all, but a caricature of them.

How is it possible for the rest who are not given repentance and faith to be saved in your view?

Well, the answer to that question depends on the sense in which you mean "possible." Ahhh, yes, "doublespeak" to you, I'm sure... <chuckles> No... <smile> And here I would cite Jesus's statements to Nicodemus (again), "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God” and "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

But to your question as it is, I would just say ~ as Jesus does ~ "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible"... "What is impossible with man is possible with God."

We've discussed this at length.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Again, you show that you understand the condition of fallen, spiritually dead mankind!

Thanks.

Does that sound like free will to seek and choose God for eternal life?

Yes.

After hearing the gospel of the Kingdom of God if hearing is through the power of the Holy Spirit in them, they shall be saved.

Why are you adding something to the text that isn't there? It doesn't say faith comes by hearing and "hearing through the power of the Holy Spirit in them". It says faith comes by hearing and "hearing through the word of God". Paul asks regarding those Israelites who rebelled against God "But, did they not hear?" as if maybe that was the reason they rebelled. But, then he said that they did hear. But, they rejected what they heard.

Not because they made a free will choice to believe, but according to God's grace through faith imputed to that person through the power of the Holy Spirit. If God desires all of humanity to repent and believe why when hearing the gospel of the Kingdom of God does the vast majority of mankind remain in unbelief?

Because with free will there is nothing to dictate how many will or will not believe.

The question I have for you is if God does NOT desire all of humanity to repent and believe, then why does He punish people for not repenting and believing? You think He punishes people for not repenting and believing even when He did not want them to do so? How does that make any sense? And how does it make any sense for Him to punish them when they are not even able to do so (according to your doctrine)?

The two passages are NOT contradictory!

I didn't say they were. But, it seems your doctrine makes them contradictory because it seems that you were saying that none ever seek God. Hebrews 11:6 clearly refutes that notion. But, maybe you weren't intending to say that no one ever seeks God.

Apart from faith NONE seek God, and without faith NONE shall please God.

Think about this. If someone has faith, haven't they already sought God? How does someone have faith without first seeking God? What need is there to seek God if you already have faith in God? Haven't you already found God if you have faith? I don't think you've thought this through very carefully.

Also, why would our faith please God if He's the one who gives it to us? That makes no sense whatsoever. Why would God be pleased with us for our faith if He is the one who created that faith and gave it to us? Wouldn't He instead be pleased with Himself for doing that? I would think so. So, again, I don't think you've thought this through very carefully.

One more thing about faith. Why was Jesus amazed with the faith of the Roman centurion who believed that Jesus could heal his servant supernaturally without even going to his home?

Matthew 8:5 Now when Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to Him, pleading with Him, 6 saying, “Lord, my servant is lying at home paralyzed, dreadfully tormented.” 7 And Jesus said to him, “I will come and heal him.” 8 The centurion answered and said, “Lord, I am not worthy that You should come under my roof. But only speak a word, and my servant will be healed. 9 For I also am a man under authority, having soldiers under me. And I say to this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and to another, ‘Come,’ and he comes; and to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.” 10 When Jesus heard it, He marveled, and said to those who followed, “Assuredly, I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel!

I'm sure you agree that Jesus is God. Why would He be amazed at the centurion's faith if He is the one who gave it to him? That just makes no sense at all. What does make sense is that the centurion used his free will to choose to put his faith in Jesus and in His ability to heal his servant even right from where He stood without going to his home.

1 Corinthians 2:11-14 (KJV) For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

It makes no sense to refer to this passage to try to support your doctrine. Paul was speaking in terms of the deeper things of God there. For some reason you chose not to include verse 10, where that is mentioned. The natural man cannot discern the deeper things of God, which does not include the simple gospel message, because those things can only be discerned by way of the Holy Spirit. Even the babes in Christ that Paul refuted in 1 Corinthians 3:1-3 for acting carnally, could not discern the deeper things of God, which Paul called "meat" or "solid food". He said they were not ready for that because of their immaturity. But, he still said they were "in Christ", so their lack of spiritual discernment did not keep them from understanding the simple gospel message or the basics of Christianity.

My concern is to build the spiritual Kingdom of God by proclaiming the gospel to humanity without distinction or exception!

So, you have no concern for those who will end up being tormented for eternity then? You're completely fine with them not having any opportunity for eternal life instead?

And whosoever has been ordained unto eternal life will believe in Christ for everlasting life.

Acts 13:48 (KJV) And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

You are badly misinterpreting that verse. It does NOT say as many as were ordained to believe believed the word of the Lord that they heard. It says as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. God ordained that any who believe will have eternal life (John 3:16). That verse has nothing to do with God ordaining certain people to believe.

Have you never read the verses that come before that one?

Acts 13:46 (KJV): Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

Notice here that it talks about the Jews who rejected the word of God that Paul and Barnabas preached to them as having judged themselves "unworthy of everlasting life". That implies that they willingly chose to reject everlasting life rather than it being a case of God not choosing everlasting life for them. In your doctrine, because you believe that salvation is entirely up to God's choice, it would make more sense for that verse to say that God judged them unworthy of everlasting life rather than them judging themselves unworthy of everlasting life.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What you think are Calvinists beliefs. I mean that's the problem, as I have said several times to you. What you think are Calvinist beliefs ~ at least to a large degree ~ are not really Calvinist beliefs at all, but a caricature of them.

That's absolutely false. But, never mind that. Why can't you just address what I said, regardless of whether you consider your beliefs to be Calvinist beliefs or not?

Well, the answer to that question depends on the sense in which you mean "possible." Ahhh, yes, "doublespeak" to you, I'm sure... <chuckles>

LOL. You're reminding me again why trying to talk to you about this subject is an utter waste of time. Yes, it is absolutely doublespeak. No question about it. Not just to me. To everyone who is honest about this topic. You say something like that, but then when someone questions it, you say you didn't mean it in that sense. Why do you choose not to be clear about what you're saying then? It comes across as if you have something to hide or are not really sure about what you believe. Is being clear and straightforward just not something you're interested in?

No... <smile> And here I would cite Jesus's statements to Nicodemus (again), "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God” and "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

How does this address my question? It doesn't. Jesus didn't say unless one is born again he cannot believe, as you imagine. After someone believes, they are then born again and enter and see the kingdom of God. Very simple.

But to your question as it is, I would just say ~ as Jesus does ~ "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible"... "What is impossible with man is possible with God."

We've discussed this at length.

Right, so it's pointless to discuss it any further.

By the way, you asked me if I pray for the salvation of others and I answered that question in post #82. Do you have any thoughts on what I said? Was that an attempted "gotcha" question?

 

[TribulationSigns]

Yet, you can't back up that opinion with any convincing arguments, so your opinion means nothing to me.

Oh, I see — so unless I quote Scripture the way you approve, it magically becomes “meaningless”? That’s convenient. Romans 9:16 is pretty clear without me needing your stamp of approval. But sure, let’s pretend God’s Word needs your personal endorsement before it counts.

This is what Calvinists do! They cherry pick scripture and draw conclusions from taking those cherry picked scripture out of context. Stop being foolish and start looking at ALL of scripture instead of your cherry picked scriptures.

Ah yes, the “you’re a cherry picker” accusation — the classic way to avoid Romans 9:16 entirely. Quoting God’s Word isn’t cherry picking just because it doesn’t fit your theology. If you want to claim “free will” trumps God’s sovereign choice, you might want to explain why Paul repeatedly says salvation “depends not on human will” but on God’s mercy. Spoiler: that’s in the Bible too. It's clear that it does not fit your "all" theology, so you accused me of cherry picker. Its you who are wrong to understand what God talked about.

That's what I say to you. You have very little spiritual discernment, which is not surprising in relation to someone like you who doesn't believe in an actual being named Satan.

Right — because disagreeing with you automatically equals “no spiritual discernment.” Got it. By that logic, Jesus Himself must have had no discernment every time the Pharisees accused Him of false teaching. It’s almost like disagreement doesn’t automatically prove ignorance… almost.

LOL. Here you are proving your lack of discernment again. That is not in relation to being chosen to salvation. That is in relation to being chosen to be one of Christ's close apostles and disciples.

Oh, the old “this verse doesn’t mean what it says” defense. Jesus literally says, “You did not choose Me, but I chose you,” and somehow that has nothing to do with salvation? Impressive theological gymnastics. If God’s choice applies to apostles but somehow not to salvation, you might need to show where the Bible draws that line — because it sure doesn’t. He spoke to the apostles, he spoke to the Church. Selah.

Did you forget that He even chose Judas Iscariot, who He called a devil?

John 6:70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” 71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

So, you have a choice to make here. You can either acknowledge that verse is not related to salvation or you can still believe it relates to salvation, but then have to admit that one who is chosen to be saved can be lost, as Judas Iscariot was (John 17:12). So, which of those choices do you choose?

You don't learn anything spiritually, do you? Using Matthew 22:14, like Judas Iscariot as example, "For many are called, few are chosen." There are going to be unsaved people among Elect in God's congregation for the purpose of building the church together. Your point is?

You're making that up in your imagination. Scripture never teaches this.

Ah, so Romans 3:10–12, John 6:44, and Ephesians 2:1–5 are figments of my imagination now? That’s a relief — I was worried my KJV Bible was broken. Good to know we can just declare inconvenient verses “nonexistent” and move on.

Once again you have chosen to draw conclusions from one scripture passage that contradicts other scripture passages. You only look at part of the story instead of the whole story.

Right, because quoting Paul’s teaching on human inability is obviously “ignoring the whole story.” Funny thing though — you accuse me of cherry picking while skipping over the part where Paul says, “No one seeks God.” If “no one” somehow means “lots of people,” I’d love to see that Greek translation.

LOL! What an ironic statement coming from you! LOL!

Yes, I’m sure Paul had “LOL” in mind when he told Timothy to handle Scripture rightly. I’ll admit it — I prefer reading the Bible to laughing at it.

They place themselves in bondage to sin...Do you believe that people are born totally depraved?

So people “place themselves” in bondage… by being born already under Adam’s sin nature? Romans 5:12 might have a word with you about that! If people are born neutral and only later “become” sinful, then explain why even infants die — the wages of sin — before they’ve made any “choice?” Unless, of course, Scripture means what it says about all being born in sin.

If so, why does Paul teach in Romans 1:18-32 that people BECOME depraved without any excuse for that? He would not talk about people becoming depraved while suppressing the truth in unrighteousness and exchanging the truth for a lie if people were born that way. Scripture teaches that people have no excuse for that, but you give them an excuse by saying they are totally depraved and in bondage to sin from birth and there's nothing they can do about it. That blatantly contradicts many scriptures.

Everyone was already spiritually depraved before they were even born! Didn't you hear what King David wrote?

Psa 58:3
(3) The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

We were all spiritually depraved—every single one of us—until God, in His mercy, chose to save and seal some. Those whom God did not save remain in their depravity, just as Scripture declares. Romans 1:18–32 isn't describing a neutral starting point; it reveals what happens when God removes His restraining hand in judgment—especially in the last days. As hearts grow darker, sin increases. That’s why we’re now witnessing a rapid surge in open rebellion: rampant homosexuality, proud arrogance, deceit, and even children openly defying their parents. It’s not random—it’s prophetic. We’re watching Romans 1 unfold in real time.

This is enough for now. I can only take so much of your nonsense at once.

Ah yes, the classic "I'm overwhelmed by facts, so I'm tapping out" exit strategy. Don't worry, I understand — biblical truth can be a lot to handle when it doesn't bend to your flawed free will theology. Take all the time you need. Maybe next round, bring arguments instead of dramatic flair.

 

[MatthewG]

It proves your world view.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Well, understanding Eschatology is NOT the determining factor of who is saved or a false Christian. The determining factor is the Holy Spirit of truth, or more correctly put, the lack thereof. Faithful Eschatology, or the correct belief in the truth of the divine Kingdom of God, is a gift given of God. We don't believe the truth concerning the true Kingdom of Christ simply because we are smarter, wiser, or more educated than the next guy; we believe the truth because it is gifted to us to believe. Otherwise (because of our sin nature), we'd be just as deceived as any other sinner in this world. Believing in the correct eschatology is NOT the determining factor; it is the result of the determining factor. In other words, the only reason that you, I, or anyone else believes the truth is the "faithfulness" of Christ bestowed upon us through His Spirit within us. People believe in a false eschatology because they have not been moved by the Spirit to believe the truth of the kingdom of Christ. That's the "unpalatable" truth that man doesn't like, but that God's Word delineates. As hard as it may be to understand, not everyone is meant to read God's word and actually have ears to hear God's Word. Only those endowed with God's unmerited favor to do so! That means God is the sovereign, not man!

Mark 4:11-12

• "And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
• That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them."

Those in the church who do not know (and who never will know) the mystery in the truth of the kingdom of God, "don't know for a reason!" The reason is, it was never given to them to know!

So no, eschatology is not the determining factor; believing or receiving the truth in love is! Lest we forget, there is a reason that some believe the truth and some do not. Just as there is a reason that the nation of Israel (in part) does not believe in the eschatology of Christ, but there is a reason that some, or a remnant, do.

Likewise, there is a reason some of the churches are deceived in believing in a particular form of Judaism called Dispensationalism, Preterism and others know the truth of this deception. It's not their eschatology, it's the Spirit of truth given them, or not given them. Just as there's a reason some of the church know who the great whore of Babylon is, and others struggle with recognizing the imagery of that parable. ...the very same Spirit of truth, or the lack thereof.

Some people insisted that understanding Eschatology does not make them a fake Christian. No, it is taking offense at the Word of God that makes them false Christians. Being an adversary of God's truth makes them a false Christian. Denying God's sovereign grace makes them false Christians. Denying that he is a Jew only because they are one inwardly makes them a false Christian. But as Christ said to His messengers:

"Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables, That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them."

His words, not Mine! I merely bear testimony of it, I didn't author it.

Only the Elect receive these Seven Blessings.

• Revelation 1:3
  Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.
• Revelation 14:13
  Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on. “Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.”
• Revelation 16:15
  Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.
• Revelation 19:9
  Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb.
• Revelation 20:6
  Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
• Revelation 22:7
  Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy written in this scroll.
• Revelation 22:14
  Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city.

Its Christ personal love letter to those who rightly divide the Word of Truth.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Only the Elect receive these Seven Blessings.

• Revelation 1:3
  Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.
• Revelation 14:13
  Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on. “Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.”
• Revelation 16:15
  Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.
• Revelation 19:9
  Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb.
• Revelation 20:6
  Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
• Revelation 22:7
  Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy written in this scroll.
• Revelation 22:14
  Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city.

Its Christ personal love letter to those who rightly divide the Word of Truth.

Indeed, the Blessed has to do with salvation of the Elect.

 

[rwb]

Also, there is the parable of Matthew 22:1-13 which compares the preaching of the gospel to an invitation to a wedding

The invitation comes through the message; the gospel of the Kingdom of God invites every man without exception or distinction to HEAR of Christ. Because FAITH comes by hearing, hearing by the Word. The one who hears the message about the spiritual Kingdom of God through Christ and believes (receives faith) through the power of the Spirit is eternally saved by the grace of God. Not according to man's so-called free-will.

All mankind is invited to come, but only those ordained to eternal life shall be eternally saved according to grace through faith, the power of God through His Spirit within. Why invite the whole of humanity if only an elect remnant shall be saved? Because we are commanded to go unto all the world preaching and teaching mankind of the spiritual Kingdom of God that came through Christ. And we are not told who among the mass of humanity will be given eternal life through faith received by the power of the Holy Spirit.

John 1:12 (KJV) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
John 1:13 (KJV) Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 3:3 (KJV) Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

John 3:5 (KJV) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Are you somehow not aware that everyone needs to choose who they will serve?

You've shown you understand that spiritually dead man will not believe the gospel until he/she has been born again! Once man possesses the Spirit of Christ (born again) and knows and has entered the spiritual Kingdom of God, they will ALWAYS choose Christ, because they are endowed with the power of the Holy Spirit teaching them of things that can only be discerned through the Spirit. When a man/woman has been born again they will ALWAYS repent of their sins and turn to Christ not by so-called free-will but by the power of God working in them!

Why does God get angry at people and punish them for not accepting the invitation (Matthew 22:7) if they are not actually genuinely being offered salvation?

They are punished because they were not clothed in the wedding garment. God sees the heart, and knows who among mankind saying they believe, are still natural man that have not become spiritual man. They are bound and cast into outer darkness because they did not hear the gospel of the Kingdom of God by the power of the Holy Spirit and have never been born again. The message about Christ coming with the Kingdom of God invites people without exception or distinction, but only those chosen/ordained unto eternal life will be eternally saved. The message about Christ coming in the Kingdom of God is extended to the whole world, but only those chosen elect according to the grace of God shall be saved.

Matthew 22:11-14 (KJV) And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called, but few are chosen.

Joshua 24:14 Now therefore fear the Lord, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the Lord. 15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

Joshua is NOT addressing people in unbelief. Joshua is warning them to choose the one true God they already know, and don't be like their fathers of old who served the gods of Egypt. If they forsake the LORD and serve strange gods, then God will turn away from them even though He has done them good in giving them the land of promise. This is not free-will offer for them to choose God for salvation. It is a stern warning of what shall happen to them when they too turn to serve other gods and idols as their fathers of old had done.

Joshua 24:19-21 (KJV) And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the LORD: for he is an holy God; he is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins. If ye forsake the LORD, and serve strange gods, then he will turn and do you hurt, and consume you, after that he hath done you good. And the people said unto Joshua, Nay; but we will serve the LORD.

Faith comes before regeneration, not after.

Where does this faith come from? Who among the human race, physically born natural man without the Spirit of Christ possess faith before being born again? John 3 gives a detailed example using Nicodemus, telling us: "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." John says that none can know (see) or enter the Kingdom of God until they are born again. But you say faith to be saved comes before man is born again! Man MUST be made spiritually alive (quickened) by the Spirit before they believe (have faith) in the things of God.

Ephesians 2:1 (KJV) And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Colossians 2:13 (KJV) And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

After we trust in Christ THEN we are sealed by the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:12-13)

As I've been telling you all along. The message about Christ, the gospel of the Kingdom of God, preached to those PREDESTINATED according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to His own will, trust in Christ upon hearing through the power of the Holy Spirit. Hearing the gospel, believing and being sealed with the Holy Spirit is the manner in which we obtain everlasting life. Spiritually dead mankind doesn't naturally believe [have faith] upon hearing the gospel. If that were true than everyone hearing the gospel would be saved. Only those hearing the message through the power of the Spirit, sealed in them, believe, repent of their sins and turn to Christ.

Ephesians 1:11-13 (KJV) In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

 

[PinSeeker]

That's absolutely false.

Absolutely not. I mean, your opinions about and allegations against Calvinism are what they are, and you think they're true, but they are not true at all, but distortions of Calvinism and what he wrote and said. I'm not saying you're lying, but what you have said regarding these things is not true... and thus about what I believe... are distortions of true Calvinism and what I believe.

But, never mind that. Why can't you just address what I said, regardless of whether you consider your beliefs to be Calvinist beliefs or not?

Because I have many times, and over and over again. You're not saying anything different here.

You're reminding me again why trying to talk to you about this subject is an utter waste of time.

Well, no need to rehash what we have talked about at length. I say it wouldn't be a waste of time is there was some humility on your part, but I'm sure you will disregard that, and that's fair enough.

Yes, it is absolutely doublespeak. No question about it.

No, but hatever, man; fair enough.

You say something like that, but then when someone questions it, you say you didn't mean it in that sense.

Right, because what they said, in restating what I said, is in a very different sense than the sense in which I meant it. Surely you would agree that there are different and even conflicting senses in which something could be said... it is true in a certain sense, but false in another sense, or vice-versa.

Why do you choose not to be clear about what you're saying then?

I've been very clear. And in the places where what we're talking about has occurred, I've said, in effect, "What you have said would be true if I said it in the sense of... "A," but I mean that in the sense of... "B." But still you insist on making it out to be in the sense of "A," and that's what creates this impasse on any particular thing. Like, for example what we were discussing regarding 'cannot,' or not being able to do something... there are two very different senses of not being able to do something, again, as discussed at length.

It comes across as if you have something to hide or are not really sure about what you believe.

Can that not be you're... issue rather than mine? I'm not really blaming you for anything, but for the most part that's been the problem.

Is being clear and straightforward just not something you're interested in?

<chuckles> See above.

How does this address my question? It doesn't.

Ohhhh, it does. <smile> But I get that you don't think so, and... I'm not surprised.

Jesus didn't say unless one is born again he cannot believe, as you imagine.

Ummmm, seeing is believing... <smile>

After someone believes, they are then born again and enter and see the kingdom of God. Very simple.

Actually, one believing is not even addressed by Jesus there in his conversation with Nicodemus. And the silence is deafening... as is what we might call the argument from silence. Which should speak volumes to you. Again I will point out what Jesus said to to different groups of Jews, first in John 8 and then in John 10:

"Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear My word. You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires... But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me... If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God." (John 8:43-47)​

​

"...the Jews gathered around him and said to him, 'How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.' Jesus answered them, 'I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name bear witness about Me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, Who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one' " (John 10:24-30).​

And... yet again... this is exactly what Paul says in Ephesians 2:1-10...

"And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience ~ among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ ~ by grace you have been saved ~ and raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages He might show the immeasurable riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."​

Again, absolutely no mention here of anything ~ anything ~ we have done or believed prior to God's work of "making us alive together with Christ." You know, except for what we were doing prior to our being born again... living in the passions of our flesh and carrying out the desires of the body and mind, being by nature the children of wrath that we were (like the rest of mankind). Again, the silence regarding that speaks volumes. Should, anyway...

So, unquestionably, our hearing and believing the words of God ~ and in Jesus Himself ~ is not dependent on our believing. Rather, our believing and obeying and subsequent "good working" is dependent on our being of God, which is only the case if we have been born again of God.

You may notice that nothing I have posted here can be attributed in any way to John Calvin... But, were he here with us, he would certainly argue along the exact same lines as I. <smile>

so it's pointless to discuss it any further.

Maybe so; fair enough.

By the way, you asked me if I pray for the salvation of others and I answered that question in post #82. Do you have any thoughts on what I said?

You know, I haven't looked at your reply, mainly because I think I know what your answer is. And, if it is what I think it is, then... it should make you rethink some things ~ among other things what you have just said about Jesus's words to Nicodemus in John 3. Which was my objective in asking that question. <smile>

Was that an attempted "gotcha" question?

Nope. Really, what I was meaning to do was to get you to, um, get yourself. But if not, then... fair enough. <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

Okay so I just looked back... <smile>

Anyway, no, I don't pray for the salvation of others... that would imply that I think salvation is entirely up to God's choice, which I obviously don't believe.

Hmmmm, okay. Yeah that explains it, I guess. Well, so how do you reconcile that with, oh, the Lord's prayer, particularly "...Your kingdom come, Your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven," and "lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil"...? Regarding what you say here, how do you reconcile that with Jesus's words in Matthew 6:10, 13 and what Paul says in Ephesians 2 as cited above... and just previous to that in Ephesians 1, specifically verses 4-5 ("...He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will")?

I mean, no need to answer, really; there is no reconciliation. Or perhaps you think we pre-existed God Himself... <smile>

Yes, there is.

Matthew 26:24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.

Surely, Jesus would never have said it would have been good for a saved person to never have been born.

You don't suppose Jesus to be speaking of being born again of the Spirit there, do you? Surely not... So, regarding Judas, it would have been better for him to have not even been born to do what he did, even for his own sake, as Judas himself proved in taking his own life; he could not live with what he had done... which, unmistakeably, proves his remorse (to put it mildly). And again, he did it because Satan had entered into him (John 13:2), and in that verse, clearly he was not then of Satan, but... well, possessed, I guess you could say, by Satan... literally, the devil made him do it... which is where we get that saying, actually.

...it makes sense to say that about an unsaved person...

Well, with this here, actually, I agree, but it also makes sense to say that about a saved person, in the sense that they are still a sinner and have the sinful nature still in them, that, even having been born again they are still in this life prone to sin... Even born-again Christians can do terrible, terrible things, and thus be "a devil."

. since never existing is certainly better than eternal punishment.

Also, Jesus would never have called a saved person a devil like He did with Judas.

I say he could and would... and actually did in implicit ways elsewhere. Now, "children of the devil," or "of the devil" like in John 8 and 10... thaaaaaat's a different story.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Ah yes, the “you’re a cherry picker” accusation — the classic way to avoid Romans 9:16 entirely. Quoting God’s Word isn’t cherry picking just because it doesn’t fit your theology. If you want to claim “free will” trumps God’s sovereign choice, you might want to explain why Paul repeatedly says salvation “depends not on human will” but on God’s mercy. Spoiler: that’s in the Bible too. It's clear that it does not fit your "all" theology, so you accused me of cherry picker. Its you who are wrong to understand what God talked about.

I explained what the verse means and you're obviously too afraid to address what I said since you didn't do so at all. Your interpretation of Romans 9:16 contradicts Romans 11:30-32, but do you care? Of course not. Because you cherry pick scripture, as I said.

Oh, the old “this verse doesn’t mean what it says” defense.

Calvinists are the experts on denying what a verse says (all people = the elect), so this is comical coming from you.

Jesus literally says, “You did not choose Me, but I chose you,” and somehow that has nothing to do with salvation? Impressive theological gymnastics. If God’s choice applies to apostles but somehow not to salvation, you might need to show where the Bible draws that line — because it sure doesn’t. He spoke to the apostles, he spoke to the Church. Selah.

Are you just ignoring everything I'm saying? I showed that even Judas Iscariot was chosen and Jesus said he was a devil (John 6:70-71)? So, what do you do with that? If you're going to insist that Jesus was talking about choosing them to salvation, then you'll have to admit that someone can lose their salvation because Judas Iscariot was chosen (John 6:70-71) and was lost (John 17:12).

You don't learn anything spiritually, do you?

LOL. Says the guy who can't even discern that Satan is a real spirit being (fallen angel)? You are making me laugh with every ignorant comment you make.

Using Matthew 22:14, like Judas Iscariot as example, "For many are called, few are chosen." There are going to be unsaved people among Elect in God's congregation for the purpose of building the church together. Your point is?

Unsaved people in God's congregation? LOL! You make things up in your active imagination. Nowhere does scripture teach that any unsaved person is part of God's congregation. Talk about not learning anything spiritually. Wow. Jesus said that anyone who is not with Him is against Him (Matthew 12:30). So, everyone is either in His church or not. You are trying to invent some third category of people that doesn't exist just like dispensationalists do.

Ah, so Romans 3:10–12, John 6:44, and Ephesians 2:1–5 are figments of my imagination now?

No, you misinterpret them in a way that contradicts a lot of other scripture.

Right, because quoting Paul’s teaching on human inability is obviously “ignoring the whole story.”

Paul taught that no one has any excuse for suppressing the truth in unrighteousness and for not glorifying God and being thankful to Him (Romans 1:18-21). But, you give people an excuse for that with your false belief in total depravity or total inability (whatever you want to call it).

Funny thing though — you accuse me of cherry picking

Yes, you do cherry pick. It couldn't be more obvious. You interpret Romans 9:16 to mean that only certain people can receive God's mercy by His choice while Romans 11:30-32 says He wants to have mercy on all people. No man decided that He wanted to have mercy on all people while giving all people the opportunity to receive His mercy. That was God's decision which lines up with His character as a merciful and loving God. God is love (1 John 4:8).

while skipping over the part where Paul says, “No one seeks God.” If “no one” somehow means “lots of people,” I’d love to see that Greek translation.

You clearly have no idea what that means. I told you what it means and you ignore it. You also ignore that He rewards those who diligently seek Him (Hebrews 11:6). It would be pretty hard for Him to do that if no one ever seeks Him.

Yes, I’m sure Paul had “LOL” in mind when he told Timothy to handle Scripture rightly. I’ll admit it — I prefer reading the Bible to laughing at it.

You have no clue on how to handle scripture rightly. You read the Bible and proceed to misinterpret much of it.

So people “place themselves” in bondage… by being born already under Adam’s sin nature? Romans 5:12 might have a word with you about that! If people are born neutral and only later “become” sinful, then explain why even infants die — the wages of sin — before they’ve made any “choice?” Unless, of course, Scripture means what it says about all being born in sin.

You not only don't understand much of what you read in scripture, you're not understanding what I'm saying, either. I'm not saying people don't have a sin nature. Hello? But being in bondage suggests that someone is unable to repent of their sins. You believe that people are born with total depravity, but scripture doesn't teach that. Paul taught that people BECOME depraved and have no excuse for it (Romans 1:18-32). You doctrine gives people an excuse because you say they are that way from birth and have no control over themselves as if humans are just robots.

Everyone was already spiritually depraved before they were even born!

Nonsense! You are blatantly contradicting what Paul taught, which is that people BECOME spiritually depraved and are not born that way!

Have you never read this...

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. 24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting;

Read this carefully. It completely contradicts what you believe. You say everyone is born spiritually depraved. Paul says that everyone has the knowledge of God because He makes Himself plain to everyone. And he said that there is no excuse for suppressing the truth in unrighteousness and for not glorifying God as God and being thankful to Him. You give people an excuse for that by saying they are born spiritually depraved! Paul said about these people who have no excuse for suppressing the truth in unrighteousness and not glorifying God: "professing to be wise, they BECAME fools". You say they are born as fools and Paul says they become fools. And he said they have no excuse for that. You give them an excuse by saying they were born that way and can't help but be that way.

Paul said people "exchanged the truth of God for a lie". You say they never knew the truth from birth. To say that people are spiritually depraved from birth is like saying that the homosexuals Paul mentioned are born that way. And, of course, they are not. Paul said that the kind of people he was talking about "did not like to retain God in their knowledge", so He "gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting". You say they were born that way, but Paul said they BECOME that way and then God gives them over to their debased or depraved minds.

You have God's wrath being against people for no reason. Why would He be angry at someone for just being who they supposedly were from birth while not being able to be any other way? That makes no sense whatsoever. But, it does make sense if God's wrath is on people for rebelling against Him and suppressing the truth in unrighteousness while exchanging the truth for a lie since they have no excuse for doing so. To not have any excuse for doing so implies that God expected them to retain Him and the truth in their knowledge instead of suppressing the truth and exchanging it for a lie, which implies that they had the ability to accept the truth rather than suppressing it, but they chose not to.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Didn't you hear what King David wrote?

Psa 58:3
(3) The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

LOL. Have you ever heard a baby tell a lie? Do you just throw logic out the window when you read scripture? This is another example of you cherry picking scripture and taking it out of context. All that means is that everyone will eventually sin and everyone is born with a sin nature. But, no one actually starts sinning from birth. David was using hyperbole there.

You think people are born dead in sins, but do you just ignore that Paul said he didn't become dead in sin until he knew what sin was because of the law?

Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

We were all spiritually depraved—every single one of us—until God, in His mercy, chose to save and seal some.

We are all sinners, but not all spiritually depraved. As I showed from Romans 1, Paul taught that people BECOME spiritually depraved and are not born that way. You clearly have never studied Romans 1.

Those whom God did not save remain in their depravity, just as Scripture declares. Romans 1:18–32 isn't describing a neutral starting point; it reveals what happens when God removes His restraining hand in judgment—especially in the last days.

What are you talking about? Do you just ignore the part that says people have no excuse for becoming depraved while suppressing the truth in unrighteousness and exchanging the truth for a lie? Your doctrine gives them an excuse.

As hearts grow darker, sin increases.

As hearts grow darker? So, you mean you don't think people's hearts are completely dark from birth? You think people can't help but have their hearts grow darker? Scripture never teaches that. If that was the case, then Paul would not have written that people have no excuse for suppressing the truth in unrighteousness while not glorifying God and being thankful to Him.

That’s why we’re now witnessing a rapid surge in open rebellion: rampant homosexuality, proud arrogance, deceit, and even children openly defying their parents. It’s not random—it’s prophetic. We’re watching Romans 1 unfold in real time.

LOL. Romans 1 is not about the distant future from when it was written. It's not written in the future tense. You will do anything to twist scripture to make it say what you want it to say. What Paul wrote in Romans 1 is true for all people. God has made Himself known to all people by what He has made and no one back then or any time since has had any excuse for suppressing the truth in unrighteousness and not glorifying God as God and being thankful to Him.

Ah yes, the classic "I'm overwhelmed by facts, so I'm tapping out" exit strategy.

LOL! Where are you supposed facts? Nowhere to be found. All you're doing is twisting the truth of scripture and making it fit your doctrine.

Don't worry, I understand — biblical truth can be a lot to handle when it doesn't bend to your flawed free will theology. Take all the time you need. Maybe next round, bring arguments instead of dramatic flair.

LOL. You are ignoring my arguments. You are afraid to address them directly which is why you just keep making ridiculous comments like this instead. You are blatantly ignoring what is written in Romans 1:18-32 and trying to do anything you can to not address what is written there by passing it off as something that only applied to the distant future from when it was written, which is absolutely false.