Don't be left Behind on Rapture Day!!

[Davy]

If you say so. But the context of 2 Thessalonians 2, right in verse 1, is the day of the Lord and our gathering to Him. And that day (day of the Lord from verse 1) will not come until the departure/apostasia of verse 3. And virtually every English translation prior to the KJV, and even the Septuagint, states in V3 that the "departure" will happen before or at the same time as the revealing of the son of perdition/man of sin/antichrist character and the day of the Lord.

You're still trying to change the subject.

The subject is about Christ's gathering of His saints, both from Heaven and from the earth on the day of His 2nd coming, as per... the Matthew 24, Mark 13, and 1 Thessalonians 4 Scripture.

The Greek word apostasia in 2 Thess.2:3 is where the English word 'apostasy' comes from. It does NOT... mean 'to depart' as in going somewhere. It means 'to defect from what one held to'. That is what an apostate is. It is used in Acts 21:21 as "forsake" (KJV). The pre-trib rapture spin doctors are simply trying to twist the meaning of apostasia.

 

[Copperhead]

The Greek word apostasia in 2 Thess.2:3 is where the English word 'apostasy' comes from. It does NOT... mean 'to depart' as in going somewhere. It means 'to defect from what one held to'. That is what an apostate is. It is used in Acts 21:21 as "forsake" (KJV). The pre-trib rapture spin doctors are simply trying to twist the meaning of apostasia.

It sure did to Jerome when he put together the Latin Vulgate. Jerome used "dicessio" which is a physical, spatial departure. And every English translation prior to the KJV also translated apostasia as simply departure, a departure, the departure. etc. Without a direct object in the passage to say what is being departed from, like in Acts 21:21, it has to stand on its own. And the context of the passage is our gathering unto the Lord. So departure in light of that context is a physical departure.

Paul amplifies that further in verses following verse 3....

2 Thessalonians 2:7-8 (NKJV Strong's) For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

The "He" according to most scholars is the Holy Spirit, as only the HS has the power to restrain sin. And the HS makes residence in the believers. If those believers are removed, then the HS steps aside and then that man of sin, son of perdition, pseudo Messiah can be revealed.

 

[Davy]

It sure did to Jerome when he put together the Latin Vulgate. Jerome used "dicessio" which is a physical, spatial departure. And every English translation prior to the KJV also translated apostasia as simply departure, a departure, the departure. etc. Without a direct object in the passage to say what is being departed from, like in Acts 21:21, it has to stand on its own. And the context of the passage is our gathering unto the Lord. So departure in light of that context is a physical departure.

Paul amplifies that further in verses following verse 3....

2 Thessalonians 2:7-8 (NKJV Strong's) For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

The "He" according to most scholars is the Holy Spirit, as only the HS has the power to restrain sin. And the HS makes residence in the believers. If those believers are removed, then the HS steps aside and then that man of sin, son of perdition, pseudo Messiah can be revealed.

From Robertson's New Testament Word Studies:

2 Thess 2:3
Except the falling away come first ean (NT:1437) mee (NT:3361) elthee (NT:2064) hee (NT:3588) apostasia (NT:646) prooton (NT:4412). Negative condition of the third class, undetermined with prospect of determination and the aorist subjunctive. Apostasia (NT:646) is the late form of [apostasis] and is our word "apostasy." Plutarch uses it of political revolt and it occurs in 1 Macc. 2:15 about Antiochus Epiphanes who was enforcing the apostasy from Judaism to Hellenism. In Josh 22:22 it occurs for rebellion against the Lord. It seems clear that the word here means a religious revolt and the use of the definite article hee (NT:3588) seems to mean that Paul had spoken to the Thessalonians about it. The only other New Testament use of the word is in Acts 21:21 where it means apostasy from Moses. It is not clear whether Paul means revolt of the Jews from God, of Gentiles from God, of Christians from God, or of the apostasy that includes all classes within and without the body of Christians. But it is to be first prooton (NT:4412) before Christ comes again. Note this adverb when only two events are compared (cf. Acts 1:1).
(from Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 1997 by Biblesoft & Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament. Copyright (c) 1985 by Broadman Press)

The Greek word 'apostasia' as used in history has been per the above, to point to defection from what one had held to. Apostle Paul in Acts 20 warned about wolves creeping in after he left, and the other Apostles also had warned of how some would be turned away from Christ in the last days...

1 Tim 4:1-2
4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
KJV

2 Tim 3:1-5
3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
KJV

1 John 2:18
18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
KJV

So it's not difficult to figure out what Paul was warning about in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 involving a false one coming to set himself up as God in Jerusalem and demand all worship him instead, thus causing a great apostasy of those he will deceive away from the Truth.

 

[Copperhead]

And I counter with the works of Dr. Kenneth Wuest (1893 - 1961), a premier Greek scholar and professor of NT Greek at Moody Bible Institute for several decades. He did a rather extensive treatise on the apostosia of 2 Thessalonians 2 as being "departure" without being "falling away", Rebellion, etc.

Likewise, Dr. Andy Woods, current president of Chafer Theological Seminary along with being a working pastor. He has published a concise yet detailed treatise on the subject of the apostosia in 2 Thessalonians 2:3.

I have several of each of these scholars works and the case is very well made that apostasia can only mean "departure" and stands on its own in 2 Thessalonians 2:3. And that in the context of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-9, it has to be a physical, spatial departure in view. The context is our gathering unto the Lord in verse 1. And context is carried thru to to verses 7-9 where the passage talks about the retainer being taken out of the way before the pseudo messiah can be revealed.

According to Dr. Woods, apostasia in the passage is pre 70th week..... "game, set, match" in his own words.

 

[Davy]

And I counter with the works of Dr. Kenneth Wuest (1893 - 1961), a premier Greek scholar and professor of NT Greek at Moody Bible Institute for several decades. He did a rather extensive treatise on the apostosia of 2 Thessalonians 2 as being "departure" without being "falling away", Rebellion, etc.

Likewise, Dr. Andy Woods, current president of Chafer Theological Seminary along with being a working pastor. He has published a concise yet detailed treatise on the subject of the apostosia in 2 Thessalonians 2:3.

I have several of each of these scholars works and the case is very well made that apostasia can only mean "departure" and stands on its own in 2 Thessalonians 2:3. And that in the context of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-9, it has to be a physical, spatial departure in view. The context is our gathering unto the Lord in verse 1. And context is carried thru to to verses 7-9 where the passage talks about the retainer being taken out of the way before the pseudo messiah can be revealed.

According to Dr. Woods, apostasia in the passage is pre 70th week..... "game, set, match" in his own words.

And those at Moody follow the Darby pre-trib rapture theory line, which of course is a doctrine that only began to be preached in the Churches of Britain in the 1830s. Prior to that the Christian Church taught Christ returns after the tribulation, like God's Word says (Matthew 24 & Mark 13). That is why they want to change the meaning of the Greek word apostasia, which means 'apostasy', into some 'leaving on a jet plane' stupid idea. They are drunken on the pre-trib rapture doctrine, and that's all they can see.

 

[Copperhead]

Davy, a pre 70th week removal was in view long before Darby. That you seem to be not aware of that exhibits a lack of historical facts. The 1599 Geneva Bible was put together before Darby came on the scene and it translates apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 as simply departure, just as many modern Greek Scholars have and virtually every English translation prior to the KJV. The LV of the 4th Century did the same thing by using dicessio to translate apostasia, and dicessio is a spatial departure not a spiritual one. We can even see pre 70th week in some of the writings of early church writers prior to the LV coming on the scene.

Some of you folks have a real Darby phobia thing going on that is not healthy. Even the literal statements of the little Scottish girl that many suppose Darby got his ideas about the pre 70th week about, she did not even mention the pre 70th week idea at all and in fact her statements were more in line with post trib.

To maintain objectivity, the following link is from a Preterist archive, which is defiantly against the pre 70th week rapture idea. It is Margaret MacDonald's vision. If anyone can find a mention of a pre 70th week rapture or removal of the church in there, then by all means highlight it and offer it up to us. Everything seems to express a post tribulation view. She states emphatically that the church will be purged by the antichrist. Now that is hardly pre 70th week.

Margaret Macdonald's Original Pretribulation Vision

I also offer this little nugget I lifted from another site.....


By far the biggest mistake post-tribulationists have made attacking the rapture is claiming that the pretribulation rapture wasn't taught before 1830. In fact, John L. Bray, a Southern Baptist evangelist, offered $500 to anyone who could prove that someone taught the rapture doctrine prior to MacDonald's 1830 vision. Bray was first proven wrong when he wrote in a newsletter, "Then my own research indicated that it was Emmanuel Lacunza, a Jesuit Catholic priest, who in the 1812 book The Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty, first taught this theory."

Bray stuck his neck out again when he made another $500 offer to anyone who could provide a documented statement earlier than Lacunza's 1812 writings. Apparently he had to cough up the 500 bucks. I quote him again: "I offered $500 to anyone who would give a documented statement earlier than Lacunza's time which taught a two-stage coming of Christ separated by a stated period of time! No one claimed that offer until someone found writings that forced Bray to write the following: Now I have the Photostat copies of a book published in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, in 1788 but written in 1742-1744 in England, which taught the pretribulation rapture before Lacunza." Lately, a number of other sources have been located that teach the pretribulation rapture--some written as early as the second century. Where does this leave Margaret MacDonald?

The Rapture of the Church and Margaret MacDonald

 

[Davy]

Davy, a pre 70th week removal was in view long before Darby. That you seem to be not aware of that exhibits a lack of historical facts. The 1599 Geneva Bible was put together before Darby came on the scene and it translates apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 as simply departure, just as many modern Greek Scholars have and virtually every English translation prior to the KJV....

The Geneva Bible in 2 Thess.2 says a "departure from the faith", so let's be honest now, that doesn't mean leaving on a jet plane! It means to leave the Christian Faith for something else! So in essence, the Geneva Bible is exactly in line with the actual meaning of the Greek word apostasia, which is where our English word apostasy comes from, meaning to forsake, and not some idea of leaving on a jet plane.

Some of you folks have a real Darby phobia thing going on that is not healthy. Even the literal statements of the little Scottish girl that many suppose Darby got his ideas about the pre 70th week about, she did not even mention the pre 70th week idea at all and in fact her statements were more in line with post trib.

No phobias, pre-trib rapture folks just don't like the documented evidence about Darby and the Irvingite movement being the main ones to push a pre-trib rapture first in the Church in 1830s Great Britain. Cults always have those kind of origins. They especially don't like scholars like Dave McPherson who has done an excellent job exposing the Pre-trib Rapture school's lies. Per Margaret McDonald's letter, she admitted what she uttered during her sickeness didn't seem right, and felt evil.

To maintain objectivity, the following link is from a Preterist archive, which is defiantly against the pre 70th week rapture idea. It is Margaret MacDonald's vision. If anyone can find a mention of a pre 70th week rapture or removal of the church in there, then by all means highlight it and offer it up to us. Everything seems to express a post tribulation view. She states emphatically that the church will be purged by the antichrist. Now that is hardly pre 70th week.

Margaret Macdonald's Original Pretribulation Vision

I also offer this little nugget I lifted from another site.....


By far the biggest mistake post-tribulationists have made attacking the rapture is claiming that the pretribulation rapture wasn't taught before 1830. In fact, John L. Bray, a Southern Baptist evangelist, offered $500 to anyone who could prove that someone taught the rapture doctrine prior to MacDonald's 1830 vision. Bray was first proven wrong when he wrote in a newsletter, "Then my own research indicated that it was Emmanuel Lacunza, a Jesuit Catholic priest, who in the 1812 book The Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty, first taught this theory."

Bray stuck his neck out again when he made another $500 offer to anyone who could provide a documented statement earlier than Lacunza's 1812 writings. Apparently he had to cough up the 500 bucks. I quote him again: "I offered $500 to anyone who would give a documented statement earlier than Lacunza's time which taught a two-stage coming of Christ separated by a stated period of time! No one claimed that offer until someone found writings that forced Bray to write the following: Now I have the Photostat copies of a book published in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, in 1788 but written in 1742-1744 in England, which taught the pretribulation rapture before Lacunza." Lately, a number of other sources have been located that teach the pretribulation rapture--some written as early as the second century. Where does this leave Margaret MacDonald?

Lacunza is often mistaught by the Pre-trib Rapture school, and they have been CAUGHT DOING JUST THAT!

The Real Manuel Lacunza | Dave MacPherson

(I'm not a Preterist by the way. Just because someone holds to actual Scripture in God's Word about Jesus' 2nd coming to gather His Church after... the tribulation, doesn't mean one is a Preterist, or a Futurist).

 

[Keraz]

Friends, we should all be aware of soon to happen, dramatic changes coming to this world. Many things simply cannot continue as they are for much longer.

The Bible prophets tell us, in great detail of many things that will take place, leading up to the glorious Return of our Lord Jesus for His Millennial reign.


Jesus said in Matthew 24:32-33, when the fig tree buds, then the present generation [those alive when that happens] will live to see it all. All - meaning; prophesied events.

The fig tree is a metaphor for the Jewish people, Jeremiah 24:4-7 and the only possible fulfilment of that prophecy is the establishment of the Jewish State of Israel, in a small part of the holy Land.

Jesus quoted the prophecy of Isaiah 61:1-2a at the commencement of His earthly ministry. Luke 4:18-21 He carefully left off the remainder of that chapter, for what was not to be fulfilled at that time was the Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath.

This terrible world changing Day, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Revelation 6:12-17, 2 Peter 3:7, is what we can expect to happen in the near future. It will be triggered by an attack onto Israel by an Islamic confederation of peoples and nations and Iran will attempt to fire nuke missiles at Israel, but God will cause their weapons to explode upon themselves. Psalms 7:12-16, Psalms 11:4-6, Joel 3:4, Jeremiah 49:35-37


Many prophesies say how all those who believe in God and keep His Laws, should call upon His Name, [Jesus] on that Day and they will be saved. Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21

He will protect us; sending angels from heaven to save His own people, Psalms 57:1-3, Isaiah 43:2, as He did for the 3 men in the furnace; Daniel 3:19-27

Then, we have the Lord’s promises of the gathering of His Christian people into all of the holy Land, Ezekiel 34:11-31, Isaiah 66:18-21, Romans 9:24-26, to live there as He always intended; being His witnesses and sending out missionaries to proclaim the coming Kingdom of Jesus.


Over 100 years ago, a teaching was promoted, saying that before any disasters would happen, God will take His people up to live in heaven and they would return with Him for the Millennium.

This teaching is not found in the Bible, as Dr John Walvoord; a rapture proponent, did actually admit. Scriptures like John 14:1-3 and 1 Thess. 4:15-17 are touted as rapture proofs, but they pertain to the end of the Millennium and at the Return of Jesus respectively and in no way do they, or any other verses say anyone will go to live in heaven. Jesus refutes that false idea in John 3:13 No one goes to heaven, except the One who came from there.


What we Christians are all exhorted to do when disaster strikes, is to pray for the strength and God given protection to survive that Day, 1 Cor. 10:11-13, 1 Peter 1:7 and to be found worthy to live in the holy Land, as the Israelites of God. 1 Peter 1:9-10

Remember this truth: all the promises of God to Israel now applies to Christians. Galatians 3:26-29, 6:14-16 Jesus came to extend salvation to all who will accept it and now we are His people, bought by Jesus’ blood, chosen by Him and destined to be with Him on earth forever. Isaiah 49:8, Revelation 5:9-10

 

[Copperhead]

The Geneva Bible in 2 Thess.2 says a "departure from the faith", so let's be honest now, that doesn't mean leaving on a jet plane!

Let's actually be honest.......

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (1599 Geneva Bible) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.

It has to be some sort of Darby fixation, or at the very least, a less than collegial approach to history. I even gave a link from a Preterist website to MacDonald's vision with no editing. And MacDonald did not proclaim a pre-trib rapture that so many try to say she did and Darby picked up on it.

"For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the Tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins" (On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World, by Ephraem the Syrian, A.D. 373).

One argue the a ghost writer did this and it wasn't Ephraim, but the point remains, some early church writers espoused a pre 70th week removal.

"And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be" (Against Heresies, Irenaeus, A.D. 130-202)

And Irenaeus knew Polycarp who was a student the Apostle John. About as close to the original Apostles as one can get.

I understand how there can be many views of the end and the removal. About the only other one that I can see substantive support for is a mid trib position. But anything beyond that has to allegorize scripture to extremes to make it fit. And for opponents of the pre 70th week idea to use "leaving on a jet plane", that is diatribe to demean opponents and put them on a defensive. It is the same tactic used by politicians in political campaigns. To stoop to the practices of the world to discuss theological ideas is really a sad thing. At the very least it shows how little someone respects fellow believers. It also exhibit how insecure they are in their own position and therefore have to make sport of those who might disagree.

 

[Davy]

Let's actually be honest.......

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (1599 Geneva Bible) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.

From BibleGateway:
___________________________________________________________________
2 Thessalonians 2 1599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
2 2 He showeth that the day of the Lord shall not come, till there be a departure from the faith, 3 and that Antichrist be revealed, 8 whose destruction he setteth out, 15 and thereupon exhorteth to constancy.
___________________________________________________________________

You simply are not to be trusted.

 

[Davy]

It has to be some sort of Darby fixation, or at the very least, a less than collegial approach to history. I even gave a link from a Preterist website to MacDonald's vision with no editing. And MacDonald did not proclaim a pre-trib rapture that so many try to say she did and Darby picked up on it.

No Darby fixation, just documentation on the origins of a "secret" rapture theory first taught in Christian Churches. It began to be preached in the Irvingite Church in 1830s Great Britain, which is where John Darby got it. A monk who may have written the idea first as a theoretical treatise vs. the preaching of the theory in the Christian Church are two different things. Dave MacPherson in his book The Incredible Cover-Up did his homework on documenting the theory's origins.

"For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the Tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins" (On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World, by Ephraem the Syrian, A.D. 373).

Dave MacPherson's rebuttal to that based on his excellent research...

"....
But now it's time to analyze Pseudo-Ephraem (hereafter: P-E), the name attached by scholars to manuscripts that were possibly, but not provably, written by the well-known Ephraim the Syrian who lived from 306-373 A.D.

And what's the discovery in P-E's early Medieval sermon on the end of the world that's led pretrib promoters to see pretrib in it? It's basically these words:

"For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins." A pretrib rapture is seen by promoters in the phrase "taken to the Lord."

It needs to be emphasized that pretrib in P-E has been palmed off on unsuspecting Christians by promoters seeing rapture aspects in P-E's sermon where none exist and by covering up such aspects where they do exist in his 10-section sermon!

In Section 2, P-E says that the only event that's "imminent" is "the advent of the wicked one" (that is, Antichrist). Nevertheless, Grant Jeffrey in his 1995 book, FINAL WARNING, had the audacity to claim that P-E "began with the Rapture using the word 'imminent'" and added in the next sentence that "Ephraem used the word 'imminent' to describe the Rapture." (If he and other P-E promoters can look at a coming of Antichrist and see a coming of "Christ," is it any wonder that in his endtime view folks will look at Antichrist and see "Christ"?

Ephraim the Syrian, reportedly P-E's inspiration, said the same thing (SERMO ASCETICUS, I): "Nothing remains then, except that the coming of our enemy, Antichrist, appear...." (Nobody's ever found even a trace of pretrib in this earlier work!)

In the before-the-tribulation sections, P-E mentions neither a descent of Christ, nor a shout, nor an angelic voice, nor a trumpet of God, nor a resurrection, nor the dead in Christ, nor a rapture, nor meeting Christ.

So where does P-E place the rapture? The answer is found in his last section (10) where he writes that after "the sign of the Son of Man" when "the Lord shall appear with great power," the "angelic trumpet precedes him, which shall sound and declare: Arise, O sleeping ones, arise, meet Christ, because the hour of judgment has come!" (Like Morgan Edwards and Manuel Lacunza, Pseudo-Ephraem has the nasty, non-pretrib habit of blending the rapture with the final advent!)

In the July/Sep., 1995 BIBLIOTHECA SACRA, Dallas Seminary's journal, Thomas Ice and his co-author Timothy Demy pulled off one of the worst revisionisms of P-E ever: when summarizing Section 10 they carefully deleted what P-E included between "trumpet" and "judgment" (deleted the distinctive I Thess. 4 aspects in that posttrib setting), giving unsuspecting readers this utterly misleading condensation: "A trumpet will sound, calling forth the dead to judgment."

But P-E says much more, as can be seen; he places the resurrection of those who sleep in Jesus and the rapture of those who meet Jesus (details found only in I Thess. 4) at the Matt. 24 coming!

A moment ago I said that Edwards and Lacunza had the same rapture/advent blending. Here's evidence. Edwards in his 1788 work (pp. 21-22) speaks of "the son of man in the clouds, coming to raise the dead saints and change the living....The signs of his coming, in the heavens, will be 'the trump of God [I Thess. 4:16], vapour and smoke, which will darken the sun and moon [Acts 2:19,20]....'"

Lacunza's 1812 work THE COMING OF MESSIAH IN GLORY AND MAJESTY (Vol. I, p. 113) declares: "...you will find St. Paul and the Gospel speaking one and the same thing: He shall send his angels and they shall gather his elect from the four winds; who can be no other than those very ones who are in Christ, who sleep in Jesus." (A few have assumed that there's pretrib in an earlier Catholic, Franciscus Ribera, but in his 16th century Revelation commentary he viewed Rev. 12's "woman" in the tribulation as the Christian Church!)

(from Deceiving and Being Deceived by Dave MacPherson at Deceiving and Being Deceived | Dave MacPherson)

 

[Copperhead]

From BibleGateway:
___________________________________________________________________
2 Thessalonians 2 1599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
2 2 He showeth that the day of the Lord shall not come, till there be a departure from the faith, 3 and that Antichrist be revealed, 8 whose destruction he setteth out, 15 and thereupon exhorteth to constancy.
___________________________________________________________________

You simply are not to be trusted.

Well, the version of the 1599 Geneva that I posted was a direct copy and paste from the Olive Tree bible software on my computer. I did not change a thing.

I now present the same passage from Genevabible.org ......

3 (*) Let no man deceive you by any means, (3) for that day shall not come, except there come a (♠) departing first, and that (e) the (♦) man of sin be disclosed, even the son of (♣) perdition,

Now, I present a screen shot I took from a online scan of the literal 1560 Geneva Bible as further support.....



Your post is claimed to be from BibleGateway.com.... well I went there and copied what that site shows from the 1599 Geneva bible.....

2 Thessalonians 2:3 1599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.

Link provided for confirmation by others:

Bible Gateway passage: 2 Thessalonians 2:3 - 1599 Geneva Bible


Now, you can try all you want to defame me regarding this, but as the evidence shows, it is you that have not been truthful. You, sir, have sinned against me and you have sinned against the Body of Messiah. You have accused me of willfull and intentional misleading others, while it is you that has been misleading to the Body. You have violated the 9th commandment about bearing false witness. Shame be upon you.

Now exposing this willful fabrication of the text that you did in your post, nothing you present is worthy of consideration on this issue. You have shown that you will change the wording of even the scripture to fit you agenda. You have been exposed. There is no way that anything you post can be trusted.

 

[Davy]

Well, the version of the 1599 Geneva that I posted was a direct copy and paste from the Olive Tree bible software on my computer. I did not change a thing.

I now present the same passage from Genevabible.org ......

3 (*) Let no man deceive you by any means, (3) for that day shall not come, except there come a (♠) departing first, and that (e) the (♦) man of sin be disclosed, even the son of (♣) perdition,

Now, I present a screen shot I took from a scan online of the 1560 Geneva Bible as further support.....

View attachment 7998

Now, you can try all you want to defame me regarding this, but as the evidence shows, it is you that have not been truthful. You, sir, have sinned against another. You have accused me of willfully and intentionally misleading others. You have violated the 9th commandment about bearing false witness.

All I have to do is refer to the Greek.

But one could also refer to all... these Bible translations that you have bypassed...

2 Thess 2:3
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
KJV

2 Thess 2:3
3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
NASU

2 Thess 2:3
3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
NIV

2 Thess 2:3
For that day will not come until two things happen: first, there will be a time of great rebellion against God, and then the man of rebellion will come-the son of hell.
TLB

2 Thess 2:3
3 Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of perdition,
RSV

2 Thess 2:3-4
3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
NAS

2 Thess 2:3
3 let no man beguile you in any wise: for (it will not be,) except the falling away come first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition,
ASV

They all refer to the idea of 'forsaking' one's Faith, not leaving on a jet plane.

 

[Copperhead]

Sure, there are other translations from the KJV onward that show a falling away. The point that I have argued is that virtually all English translations prior to the KJV and even the Latin Vulgate show a departure. Also, this assertion is supported by many Greek scholars and expositors that the text only implies a departure, and that there is nothing in the Greek of the text to support a departure from the faith.

You are still trying to manipulate the discussion and twist what I have argued. You still abide in your sin.

 

[Davy]

Sure, there are other translations from the KJV onward that show a falling away. The point that I have argued is that virtually all English translations prior to the KJV and even the Latin Vulgate show a departure. Also, this assertion is supported by many Greek scholars and expositors that the text only implies a departure, and that there is nothing in the Greek of the text to support a departure from the faith.

You are still trying to manipulate the discussion and twist what I have argued. You still abide in your sin.

You have no argument, but only are trying to make one just like the pre-trib rapture scholars have tried by twisting the truth, particularly God's Truth in His Word...


Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

You don't care what my Lord Jesus said there. You instead worship men, the pre-trib rapture scholars and their false doctrine you are drunken on. So it doesn't matter what Scripture evidence like the above is shown, you will side with those rapture leaven makers against God's Word.

Even stupid arguments on a single word or phrase like Greek apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 won't change the CONTEXT of events Apostle Paul clearly showed there about the "man of sin" coming first... prior to Christ's coming and gathering of the Church! But because of your spiritual drunkenness on men's leaven, you can't hear God's Word, it is closed off to you so that you will fall backwards, be snared, and 'taken'.

 

[Davy]

Here's another Scripture the Pre-trib Rapture school loves to twist. The 2 Thess.2:3 'departure' leaving on a jet plane idea is only a small twist of theirs.

1 Thess 5:1-4
5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, "Peace and safety"; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
KJV

The pre-trib rapture folks ought to pay special attention to what Apostle Paul showed in those above verses, especially after he just gave the events of Christ's 2nd coming and gathering of the Church in the previous Chapter. But what do they pull out of that chapter instead and focus on? It is this...

1 Thess 5:9
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
KJV

"Alright, that's all we need to know," the pre-tribbers might say. That's pretty much how they approach what Paul taught in that 1 Thess.5 Chapter, disregarding the "times and the seasons" he was giving there from the start.

In those 1 Thess.5:1-4 verses, Paul was showing us about the event of instant destruction that's to occur upon the wicked on earth on the FINAL day of this present world. And he showed it will occur at a time when the wicked and deceived will be saying, "Peace and safety". He marked that day as the "day of the Lord", the final day of this world when Jesus returns to fight His enemies and take reign over all His enemies on earth.

In 2 Peter 3:10-12, we are shown more of what is to occur on that "day of the Lord". Peter said man's works will be burned off this earth on that day, a parallel to Hebrews 12:25-29 about God's consuming fire. Both Paul and Peter are pulling from the Old Testament prophets about those events of God's consuming fire and the destruction at an instant on the last day.

But how does the pre-trib rapture school treat that "day of the Lord" event? They show their stupidity by claiming that "day of the Lord" begins BEFORE the great tribulation. Reason why their twisting of Scripture on that is so stupid is simply because the 2 Peter 3:10 burning of man's works is to occur on that "day of the Lord", which of course would mean no more tribulation, and no more man's works on the earth, for it would all be burned up! Can't have a destruction of the wicked and their works on earth prior to the tribulation, and the reason is simple. They wouldn't exist to cause the tribulation!

How can it be these folks cannot figure this out per God's Holy Writ???

It's because like Apostle Paul said, they are "drunken in the night", i.e., spiritually drunken on men's leaven doctrines.

1 Thess 5:6-7
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
KJV

 

[Davy]

Then of course there's pre-trib's lie against what our Lord Jesus Himself showed for the timing of His coming and gathering of His Church per Revelation 16:15...

Rev 16:15-17
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
KJV

In that 15th verse, our Lord Jesus said He comes "as a thief". What idea from Apostles Paul and Peter did that "as a thief" link to?? I just covered it in my previous post, the 1 Thess.5:1-3 and 2 Peter 3:10 events about the "day of the Lord". Jesus is saying here that He comes on the "day of the Lord"!

But 'who' is He speaking that to in verse 15 there??? Is He saying the wicked will be blessed for keeping their garments? No, of course not. He is speaking to His Church still on earth on that 6th Vial timing! That's right, that is 6th Vial timing and the "day of the Lord" event when He will come "as a thief" has not yet happened! This is so... simple.

What happens next to show this definitely is the day of His 2nd coming? He gathers the wicked and kings of the earth for the battle of Armageddon. And then the 7th Vial is poured out, ending this present world!

But what do the pre-tribbers teach on this instead?? "Oh, Jesus was speaking that to the 'tribulation saints' (i.e., last minute Jew converts to Christ), not His Church that He had already raptured to Heaven prior to the tribulation." They lie and treat the Matthew 24 and Mark 13 as meant only for Jews too. The reality of the Scripture though is that Matt.24 and Mark 13, and... this Rev.16:15 Scripture is specifically to ALL His Church, for His gathering of His Church isn't until on the "day of the Lord"!

And again what happens on that "day of the Lord" to the wicked? Their works are burned off this earth, which of course means no possible tribulation when that occurs! And that is the same day Jesus will gather His Church.

 

[Davy]

Here's yet another twist of Scripture example done by the pre-trib rapture doctors against God's Word...

John 14:2-3
2 In My Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
KJV

They claim that as another of their proofs of a pre-tribulational rapture of the Church. But do you see anywhere there about Jesus saying He's going gather them to heaven before the tribulation?? No, you don't, so what gives?

For one thing, the pre-tribbers are spiritually drunken on the idea of being raptured to Heaven! And they interpret that "that where I am, there ye may be also," like a rapture to heaven. But wait a minute. Didn't our Lord Jesus just say immediately before that He "will come again"? It's not that difficult folks. Jesus declared there that He would come again, but to where? To Heaven? No, of course not, don't be silly. He was standing there on this earth with His disciples when He said that to them.

If you are getting ready to leave your mama and papa to seek your fame and fortune and said to them, "Don't worry, I will come again", how would they understand that? They of course would understand you to mean you will RETURN there. You do realize friends that means the direct opposite of you will come where I am?

Well wait another minute, didn't Apostle Paul teach us that our Lord Jesus 'descends' FROM HEAVEN at the event of His gathering the Church??...

1 Thess 4:14
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.
KJV

1 Thess 4:16
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
KJV

The pre-trib rapture school uses those 1 Thess.4 verses a lot to try and support their imminent pre-trib rapture to heaven prior to the tribulation. But can't they read that "the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven" that Paul said?!? And if that isn't enough proof, what of that "them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him"?? That's yet another proof by Apostle Paul that our Lord Jesus is returning... to this earth on the day He gathers His Church! Isn't that what He said in John 14 when He said, "I will come again"? Yes, it's the same idea.

Know what else? That "the dead in Christ shall rise first" is a signal of the resurrection! That's a time marker for WHEN that event of Christ's descent to gather His Church will happen. The resurrection of the dead is set for the LAST DAY of this present world, not prior to the tribulation!

 

[Copperhead]

And not one hint of remorse for sin that you committed here for all to see. And you persist in that same sin yet. You have been given ample opportunity to realize your blatant mistake in rewriting the passage you posted from 2 Thessalonians 2:3 and was proven you had done it by the evidence I posted, and your continued throwing of accusations and defamations.

You are not worthy of serious discussion and debate. I am not sure you are even a believer at this point because you don't exhibit the Spirit in any way. I am not bothering to examine anything you have to say at this point. Go ahead and think you have won the debate.

 

[Davy]

Then there is this rebuke in Ezekiel 13 that God gave against those foxes (He calls them) that teach His people 'to fly' to save their souls! This wasn't history, it's a prophecy for the last days with a specific pointer to it. It is about men's leaven doctrine of a Pre-trib Rapture theory!

It is no wonder that such a false theory would deceive so many for the end and it not be mentioned directly in God's Word. However, it is mentioned directly in God's Word, and He is angry against those who deceive His people with it!

Ezek 13
13:1 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
2 "Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel that prophesy, and say thou unto them that prophesy out of their own hearts, 'Hear ye the word of the LORD';
3 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing!
4 O Israel, thy prophets are like the foxes in the deserts.
5 Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of the LORD.

If you think this was meant only for Jews just because of that address above to "Israel", you'd be terribly wrong. The "house of Israel" for the last days represents the scattered ten lost tribes of Israel, not Jews. This is a warning specifically to the pastors and preachers over God's people of the ten tribes scattered abroad. Where would that be? It is where the majority of them are that accepted The Gospel, because they were scattered out of the holy lands before Judah went captive to Babylon, and they never returned. And our Lord Jesus said He was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel, pointing particularly to the seed of Israel that would receive The Gospel among the Gentiles.

In essence then, this Message by our Heavenly Father is for OUR TIMES, just prior to the "battle in the day of the LORD". That "day of the Lord" is the day of our Lord Jesus' return. Their teachers/preachers are like "foxes in the deserts" God says. They follow their own spirit and have seen nothing! Boy do they, twisting His Word to make His people want to 'fly' to save their souls, as He will show later.


6 They have seen vanity and lying divination, saying, 'The LORD saith': and the LORD hath not sent them: and they have made others to hope that they would confirm the word.
7 Have ye not seen a vain vision, and have ye not spoken a lying divination, whereas ye say, 'The LORD saith it'; albeit I have not spoken?
8 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye have spoken vanity, and seen lies, therefore, behold, I am against you, saith the Lord GOD.

Can't get anymore plain than that. Those foxes among His people claim that He said, when He did not. Because of their lies and spoken vanity, He is against them.


9 And Mine hand shall be upon the prophets that see vanity, and that divine lies: they shall not be in the assembly of My people, neither shall they be written in the writing of the house of Israel, neither shall they enter into the land of Israel; and ye shall know that I am the Lord GOD.

Basically, He is saying those foxes won't be gathered along with His Church. They will be treated as the outcasts, like those outside the gates of Rev.22:13-14.

10 Because, even because they have seduced My people, saying, 'Peace'; and there was no peace; and one built up a wall, and, lo, others daubed it with untempered morter:
11 Say unto them which daub it with untempered morter, that it shall fall: there shall be an overflowing shower; and ye, O great hailstones, shall fall; and a stormy wind shall rend it.
12 Lo, when the wall is fallen, shall it not be said unto you, 'Where is the daubing wherewith ye have daubed it?'
13 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even rend it with a stormy wind in My fury; and there shall be an overflowing shower in Mine anger, and great hailstones in My fury to consume it.
14 So will I break down the wall that ye have daubed with untempered morter, and bring it down to the ground, so that the foundation thereof shall be discovered, and it shall fall, and ye shall be consumed in the midst thereof: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
15 Thus will I accomplish My wrath upon the wall, and upon them that have daubed it with untempered morter, and will say unto you, 'The wall is no more, neither they that daubed it';

Their promoting that false peace isn't in effect just yet today, for it is when the wicked and deceived will be saying, "Peace and safety" during the coming tribulation. It's pointing to the future when Antichrist shows up and these foxes begin promoting him and his plan for one-world government peace and prosperity.

Their lies will be as concrete mortar that has a weak hardener. Just slap it on, and a hard rain washes it off. The hard rain is what those hailstones and stormy wind is about for the end. It is the event taught in Revelation 19 when Jesus comes.

16 To wit, the prophets of Israel which prophesy concerning Jerusalem, and which see visions of peace for her, and there is no peace, saith the Lord GOD.

For the end of this world, that is... the orthodox Jew's plan for Jerusalem, and the coming Antichrist. The coming tribulation is going to be a time of world peace for the deceived, for those who fall away to the Antichrist, especially those who get fooled into thinking that Antichrist is our Lord Jesus. The Antichrist isn't coming to work outward evil. He is coming to deceivingly destroy using... peace, and craft is to prosper in his hand (Dan.8).

17 Likewise, thou son of man, set thy face against the daughters of thy people, which prophesy out of their own heart; and prophesy thou against them,
18 And say, 'Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of My people, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you?
19 And will ye pollute Me among My people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to My people that hear your lies?

Like Jesus warned in John 10, the hireling doesn't care for the sheep, but will run when the wolf creeps in. The hireling is a hireling because he does it for MONEY, not for love of Christ's sheep! That's why it's all lovey-dovey with them, not wanting to rebuke because they might lose that money (or barely and bread)!


20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

There it is, the Pre-trib Rapture theory of the foxes among God's people. They hunt souls to make them fly away... but to where? Our Lord Jesus is coming HERE (Zech.14; Acts 1).


21 Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver My people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
22 Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life:
23 Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver My people out of your hand: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
KJV

The consolation God gives there is for the deceived of His people who love Him. He will deliver them out of the hands of those foxes eventually. But make no mistake there, He is talking about the end of days and the fly away doctrine of man known as the Pre-tribulational Rapture theory.