Dont celebrate Christmas...wake up!!

[Polt]

5. Jeremiah 10:3-4
A tree from the forest is cut down
and worked with an axe by the hands of a craftsman.
4 They decorate it with silver and gold;
they fasten it with hammer and nails
so that it cannot move.
**see the orgin of xmas tree**

Ferdin, behind any statement or Bible passage is the letter and the spirit of what's being said. The spirit is the intended meaning. The letter is the practical approximation of that spirit.

The spirit of what you quote is for Believers in God not to be superstitious for fearful of the pagan gods because they're powerless and harmless. Do you fear those pagan gods? I don't know if you've just read that out-of-context quote that you provide here or if you've read the whole chapter. But, if you've read it, you'd know it doesn't apply to our Christmas trees.

The letter of what you quote is actually about a totem pole, not a Christmas tree. There's no carving craftsmen involved in Christmas trees. There's no representations of pagan gods on our Christmas trees. We don't put silver and gold (precious metals) on our Christmas trees. We don't fasten them with hammer and nails or stand them out in fields like scarecrows

You're wrong, both in letter and spirit, in using this verse against Christmas. And, I wonder what it is that possess you, making you so receptive to the very ridiculous arguments that you're passing on to us that we're in the wrong for celebrating Christ's birth. Were you raised as a JW? If you love Jesus, I would think, you would want to honor Jesus by celebrating his birthday.

 

[ferdin08]

Ferdin, behind any statement or Bible passage is the letter and the spirit of what's being said. The spirit is the intended meaning. The letter is the practical approximation of that spirit.

The spirit of what you quote is for Believers in God not to be superstitious for fearful of the pagan gods because they're powerless and harmless. Do you fear those pagan gods? I don't know if you've just read that out-of-context quote that you provide here or if you've read the whole chapter. But, if you've read it, you'd know it doesn't apply to our Christmas trees.

The letter of what you quote is actually about a totem pole, not a Christmas tree. There's no carving craftsmen involved in Christmas trees. There's no representations of pagan gods on our Christmas trees. We don't put silver and gold (precious metals) on our Christmas trees. We don't fasten them with hammer and nails or stand them out in fields like scarecrows

You're wrong, both in letter and spirit, in using this verse against Christmas. And, I wonder what it is that possess you, making you so receptive to the very ridiculous arguments that you're passing on to us that we're in the wrong for celebrating Christ's birth. Were you raised as a JW? If you love Jesus, I would think, you would want to honor Jesus by celebrating his birthday.

I am a christian...am not a jew you moron

 

[Angelina]

Hi ferdin,
We would appreciate it if you did not call people morons - and Polt was asking if you are a Jehovah' Witness [JW], not a Jew.

Be Blessed!

 

[Mungo]

What part do you believe is not true?

The whole statement. The most important feast of the Church's year is Easter when we celebrate the death and resurrection of Jesus. That is the most important celebration for Catholics and Orthodox (and probably many Protestants) who constitute well over 50% of all Christians.


This was in our parish newsletter one Christmas

The Christmas Tree is completely Christian in origin. The origin goes back to the medieval German mystery plays. One of the most popular ‘mysteries’ was the Paradise play, representing the creation of man, the sin of Adam and Eve and their expulsion from Paradise. It usually closed with the consoling promise of the coming Saviour and with a reference to His incarnation. This made the Paradise play a favourite play for Advent, and its closing scenes used to lead directly into the story of Bethlehem. These plays were performed either in the open, or the large squares in front of churches, or inside the house of God. The garden of Eden was indicated by a fir tree hung with apples; it represented both the ‘Tree of Life’ and the ‘Tree of discernment of good and evil’ which stood in the centre of Paradise. After the suppression of the mystery plays in churches the Paradise tree, the only symbolic object of the play, found its way into homes, especially since many plays had interpreted it as a symbol of the coming Saviour. Following this symbolism, in the fifteenth century the custom developed of decorating the Paradise tree, already bearing apples, with small white wafers representing the Holy Eucharist; so, the tree which had borne the fruit of sin for Adam and Eve, now bore the saving fruit of the sacrament, symbolised by the wafers. These wafers were late replaced by little pieces of pastry cut into the shape of stars, angels, hearts, flowers and bells.

 

[ferdin08]

Hi ferdin,
We would appreciate it if you did not call people morons - and Polt was asking if you are a Jehovah' Witness [JW], not a Jew.

Be Blessed!

Hey sorry ...here after i will not use any words like that

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

ferdin,

On this topic I hold a similar view. But what I wish to say to you is that you may be straining at the nat... . Surely on non-essentials (Romans 14:ff) it must be up to the conscience of the individual. Philippians 2:12
SHALOM

The whole statement. The most important feast of the Church's year is Easter when we celebrate the death and resurrection of Jesus. That is the most important celebration for Catholics and Orthodox (and probably many Protestants) who constitute well over 50% of all Christians.


This was in our parish newsletter one Christmas

The Christmas Tree is completely Christian in origin. The origin goes back to the medieval German mystery plays. One of the most popular ‘mysteries’ was the Paradise play, representing the creation of man, the sin of Adam and Eve and their expulsion from Paradise. It usually closed with the consoling promise of the coming Saviour and with a reference to His incarnation. This made the Paradise play a favourite play for Advent, and its closing scenes used to lead directly into the story of Bethlehem. These plays were performed either in the open, or the large squares in front of churches, or inside the house of God. The garden of Eden was indicated by a fir tree hung with apples; it represented both the ‘Tree of Life’ and the ‘Tree of discernment of good and evil’ which stood in the centre of Paradise. After the suppression of the mystery plays in churches the Paradise tree, the only symbolic object of the play, found its way into homes, especially since many plays had interpreted it as a symbol of the coming Saviour. Following this symbolism, in the fifteenth century the custom developed of decorating the Paradise tree, already bearing apples, with small white wafers representing the Holy Eucharist; so, the tree which had borne the fruit of sin for Adam and Eve, now bore the saving fruit of the sacrament, symbolised by the wafers. These wafers were late replaced by little pieces of pastry cut into the shape of stars, angels, hearts, flowers and bells.

Quote your source, please.

 

[Mungo]

ferdin,

On this topic I hold a similar view. But what I wish to say to you is that you may be straining at the nat... . Surely on non-essentials (Romans 14:ff) it must be up to the conscience of the individual. Philippians 2:12
SHALOM



Quote your source, please.

As I said - it was in our parish newsletter. It didn't give a source.

It sounds reasonable to me but of course you may have a different opinion.

 

[domenic]

As I said - it was in our parish newsletter. It didn't give a source.

It sounds reasonable to me but of course you may have a different opinion.

I won’t try to talk you out of being a Catholic. I won’t even tell you it’s a false religion. I was born into being a Catholic. I was being trained to become a priest.
　
A simple way to find what your in, is make a list of major doctrines your religion teaches. Prove, or disprove them with a standard Bible. Go to God…ask him to show you the truth. If your heart is for him, he will.
There is a book you may want to read. “The Two Babylons,” by Hislip. Hislip was
on the Vatican Console. He exposed false major doctrines, not just the Catholic religion, but most others. He proves what he says.Seek truth.

I think his name is spelled HISLIP?

 

[Mungo]

I won’t try to talk you out of being a Catholic. I won’t even tell you it’s a false religion. I was born into being a Catholic. I was being trained to become a priest.
　
A simple way to find what your in, is make a list of major doctrines your religion teaches. Prove, or disprove them with a standard Bible. Go to God…ask him to show you the truth. If your heart is for him, he will.
There is a book you may want to read. “The Two Babylons,” by Hislip. Hislip was
on the Vatican Console. He exposed false major doctrines, not just the Catholic religion, but most others. He proves what he says.Seek truth.

I think his name is spelled HISLIP?

It's spelled Hislop.

Alexander Hislop was a Scottish Presbyterian minister and in 1853 produced a pamphlet which in 1858 was expanded to a book. Its theme was to link the religion of ancient Babylon with that of the Catholic Church. It was full of footnotes and sketches to show extensive similarities and which gave an impression of serious scholarship. However there are two major problems with his thesis:
Firstly his claims turned out to be bogus. He simply invented information about Babylonia which doesn’t exist. Likewise his diagrams and sketches were just a product of his imagination,
Secondly he made links without any causal evidence, avoiding more realistic causal links. For example he claimed that the Babylonians offered round wafers to their God, the same a Catholic hosts at the Catholic Mass. His Babylonian claim was false, he showed no link as to how the Catholic Church took this from Babylon, and ignored the obvious point that the Matzo bread which Jesus broke at the last supper was flat round unleavened bread. Also manna is described as round (Ex 16:14) and like wafers (Ex16:31)

As Wikipedia says: It has been recognized by scholars as discredited and has been called a "tribute to historical inaccuracy and know-nothing religious bigotry" with "shoddy scholarship, blatant dishonesty" and a "nonsensical thesis".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Two_Babylons

An Evangelical Minister, Ralph Woodrow, produced a book based on Hislop's called Babylon Mystery Religion, which sold widely and was translated into several languages. He says that few challenged his book. One who did was Scott Klemm, a high school history teacher in Southern California. Woodrow writes:
“Being a Christian and appreciating other things I had written, he began to show me evidence that Hislop was not a reliable historian. As a result I realised that I needed to go though Hislop's work, my basic source, and prayerfully check it out.

As I did this it became clear – Hislop's “history” was often only mythology. Even though some myths may sometimes reflect events that actually happened, an arbitrary piecing together of ancient myths cannot provide a sound basis for history.”

Woodrow went on the investigate Hislop's claims consulting many reliable sources. He wrote another book called The Babylonian Connection? in which he demolished Hislop's claims.

On his web site (http://www.ralphwoodrow.org/books/pages/babylon-mystery.html) he gives some examples and comments:
It is amazing how unsubstantiated teachings like these circulate—and are believed. One can go to any library, check any history book about ancient Babylon, none of these things will be found. They are not historically accurate, but are based on an arbitrary piecing together of bits and pieces of mythology.

Some people believe in pursuing the truth.

Woodrow is not an apologist for the Catholic Church. In his book, despite demolishing Hislop's claims, he spends one chapter criticising the Catholic Church for what he calls "excess baggage", He says "It would be more appropriate to say that "some" things have been taught in the Roman Catholic Church that "dishonour" God....."

In the quote from Wikipedia I gave there are two footnotes. One points to a review of "The Babylon Connection?" who says:
The Babylon Connection? is a devastating critique of Hislop and his many imitators. Almost from the first page, the shoddy scholarship, blatant dishonesty, and personal prejudices of Alexander Hislop are quite evident. By the end of the first chapter, none except those suffering from “black helicopters over America” paranoia could possibly view Hislop as anything but a crackpot and a fraud. Woodrow presses on, however, and in painstaking detail demonstrates Hislop’s lack of scholarly integrity. As one who was formerly believed Hislop to be a credible source, Woodrow understands the mindset of those fooled by this belief system and he leaves their delusions in tatters. When it is over, nothing of Hislop’s rhetorical edifice is left standing.
(http://labarum.net/)


BTW - you were not born a Catholic (unless you mean "born again" a Catholic. Your claimed priestly training doesn't seem to have taught you much.

 

[mjrhealth]

Christians and people in general celebrate a whole lot of things. Mens traditions, christmas and easter are just two of them, And I am sure God has no problem with that but than I dont expect He will have anything to do with them either.I dont celebrate either and have no reason too. I am reminded of Christ everyday, and what He has done for me everyday, He deserves more than we give Him.

In all His Love

 

[domenic]

It's spelled Hislop.

Alexander Hislop was a Scottish Presbyterian minister and in 1853 produced a pamphlet which in 1858 was expanded to a book. Its theme was to link the religion of ancient Babylon with that of the Catholic Church. It was full of footnotes and sketches to show extensive similarities and which gave an impression of serious scholarship. However there are two major problems with his thesis:
Firstly his claims turned out to be bogus. He simply invented information about Babylonia which doesn’t exist. Likewise his diagrams and sketches were just a product of his imagination,
Secondly he made links without any causal evidence, avoiding more realistic causal links. For example he claimed that the Babylonians offered round wafers to their God, the same a Catholic hosts at the Catholic Mass. His Babylonian claim was false, he showed no link as to how the Catholic Church took this from Babylon, and ignored the obvious point that the Matzo bread which Jesus broke at the last supper was flat round unleavened bread. Also manna is described as round (Ex 16:14) and like wafers (Ex16:31)

As Wikipedia says: It has been recognized by scholars as discredited and has been called a "tribute to historical inaccuracy and know-nothing religious bigotry" with "shoddy scholarship, blatant dishonesty" and a "nonsensical thesis".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Two_Babylons

An Evangelical Minister, Ralph Woodrow, produced a book based on Hislop's called Babylon Mystery Religion, which sold widely and was translated into several languages. He says that few challenged his book. One who did was Scott Klemm, a high school history teacher in Southern California. Woodrow writes:
“Being a Christian and appreciating other things I had written, he began to show me evidence that Hislop was not a reliable historian. As a result I realised that I needed to go though Hislop's work, my basic source, and prayerfully check it out.

As I did this it became clear – Hislop's “history” was often only mythology. Even though some myths may sometimes reflect events that actually happened, an arbitrary piecing together of ancient myths cannot provide a sound basis for history.”

Woodrow went on the investigate Hislop's claims consulting many reliable sources. He wrote another book called The Babylonian Connection? in which he demolished Hislop's claims.

On his web site (http://www.ralphwoodrow.org/books/pages/babylon-mystery.html) he gives some examples and comments:
It is amazing how unsubstantiated teachings like these circulate—and are believed. One can go to any library, check any history book about ancient Babylon, none of these things will be found. They are not historically accurate, but are based on an arbitrary piecing together of bits and pieces of mythology.

Some people believe in pursuing the truth.

Woodrow is not an apologist for the Catholic Church. In his book, despite demolishing Hislop's claims, he spends one chapter criticising the Catholic Church for what he calls "excess baggage", He says "It would be more appropriate to say that "some" things have been taught in the Roman Catholic Church that "dishonour" God....."

In the quote from Wikipedia I gave there are two footnotes. One points to a review of "The Babylon Connection?" who says:
The Babylon Connection? is a devastating critique of Hislop and his many imitators. Almost from the first page, the shoddy scholarship, blatant dishonesty, and personal prejudices of Alexander Hislop are quite evident. By the end of the first chapter, none except those suffering from “black helicopters over America” paranoia could possibly view Hislop as anything but a crackpot and a fraud. Woodrow presses on, however, and in painstaking detail demonstrates Hislop’s lack of scholarly integrity. As one who was formerly believed Hislop to be a credible source, Woodrow understands the mindset of those fooled by this belief system and he leaves their delusions in tatters. When it is over, nothing of Hislop’s rhetorical edifice is left standing.
(http://labarum.net/)


BTW - you were not born a Catholic (unless you mean "born again" a Catholic. Your claimed priestly training doesn't seem to have taught you much.

Before you put Hislop aside, you should first prove, or disprove what Rlaph Woodrow’s claims.
There is a work on Woodrow: : Avram’s Critique of Ralph Woodrow. It appears Ralph was not telling the truth.
As to my priestly training; They tell bold lies.

 

[Mungo]

Before you put Hislop aside, you should first prove, or disprove what Rlaph Woodrow’s claims.
There is a work on Woodrow: : Avram’s Critique of Ralph Woodrow. It appears Ralph was not telling the truth.
As to my priestly training; They tell bold lies.

Perhaps before you believe Hislop you should prove or disprove what Hislop says.

Have you even bothered to look at the link to Woodrow's web site?

One of Hislop's claims is that Nimrod and Semiramis were husband and wife.

According to Woodrow he checked many recognised works, including:
The Encyclopedia Americana
The Encyclopedia Brittanica
The Encyclopedia Judaica
The Enclyclopedia of Religion
The New Catholic Encyclopedia
The World Book Encyclopedia
and NONE of them say anything about Nimrod and Semiramis being husband and wife.

The Encyclopedia Britttanica says about Semiramis that she was the mother of the Assyrian King Adad-nirari III (reigned 810–783 BC) and husband of Shamshi-Adad V (823-821 BC).

Now Nimrod lived at least 1200 years earlier. They can hardly be husband and wife. Tammuz supposedly her son, according to Hislop, is supposed to have lived even earlier.

 

[domenic]

That's funny. Woodrow sat at his kitchen table and read Encyclopedias to prove his point? He should have gone out into the field to gather his facts. Things in Encyclopedias go out of date each year.

According to Woodrow he checked many recognised works, including:
The Encyclopedia Americana
The Encyclopedia Brittanica
The Encyclopedia Judaica
The Enclyclopedia of Religion
The New Catholic Encyclopedia
The World Book Encyclopedia
and NONE of them say anything about Nimrod and Semiramis being husband and wife.

 

[Mungo]

Perhaps he should have gone back in his time machine to check on Semiramis & Nimrod.

 

[domenic]

Believe what you will Mungo. Do what you will. It's your life kid.

 

[horsecamp]

God has not forbidden us to celebrate Christs birth on a certain date---------- (religious festival)

there fore since God has not commanded us to or forbidden us to


it lies in the relm of christian freedom either to celebrate christimas or not to celebrate ..
yet from the earliest times Christian in their freedom have chosen to celbrate the one whiom they adore the most on a certain date ..


Colossians 2:16
[ Freedom From Human Rules ] Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

 

[KingJ]

Hey sorry ...here after i will not use any words like that

Hehe, it is hard to keep your cool when you feel everyone is attacking your OP.

You are not entirely to blame, many (including me) should talk much nicer.

 

[Raeneske]

God has not forbidden us to celebrate Christs birth on a certain date---------- (religious festival)

there fore since God has not commanded us to or forbidden us to


it lies in the relm of christian freedom either to celebrate christimas or not to celebrate ..
yet from the earliest times Christian in their freedom have chosen to celbrate the one whiom they adore the most on a certain date ..


Colossians 2:16
[ Freedom From Human Rules ] Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

Out of context. Simply because what we are referring to is a Pagan tradition, now referred to as "Christian" in these final days of Apostasy. Wake up Israel.

Jeremiah 10:2-5 Thus saith the Lord, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not. They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.

The true problem was never having a tree in your household. Pine Trees are actually healthy! What was the problem though? Following after their TRADITIONS.

Deuteronomy 12:29-30 When the Lord thy God shall cut off the nations from before thee, whither thou goest to possess them, and thou succeedest them, and dwellest in their land; Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee(and by the way, why would you follow them, after they were just DESTROYED for worshipping false gods and rejecting the true God); and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise.

How did the nations serve their gods? As I said, the problem was never simply having a tree. The problem was keeping the tree AND decorating it the way the Pagans did, by keeping the SAME DATE the Pagans did, GIVING GIFTS on that date, doing all the Christmas and holiday TRADITIONS, which are not of God, but are acts of PAGANISM.

Deuteronomy 12:32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

Reject the tradition of Christmas, if you want to keep the smile on your Father's face.

 

[Pilgrimer]

I am a newbie here..! first of all thanks to everyone who are going to tell their opinion

I read over your post and would like to caution you to not be so quick to accept at face value all these claims about the beliefs and customs of people in antiquity. Every point that you make is not historically correct.

Here are some facts :
1. There is no biblical evidence that Dec. 25 was Jesus birth date,

That’s not correct. While the Scriptures do not state what date Jesus was born, there is in fact a wealth of evidence presented in the Gospels that a careful comparison with historical and archaeological data will demonstrate that the date that has been held as that of the birth of Jesus since very nearly the time of the Apostles is testified to by theologians as early as 50 years after the Apostles:

Theophilus Bishop of Caesarea (115-181)wrote: "We ought to celebrate the birthday of our Lord on what day soever the 25th of December shall happen." (Magdeburgenses, Cent. 2. c. 6. Hospinian, de orign Festorum Chirstianorum)

Also Hippolytus (ca. 165 – 235 C.E.), in his commentary on Daniel 4:23 wrote: “The first coming of our Lord, that is in the flesh, in which he was born at Bethlehem, took place eight days before the Kalends of January …”

Eight days before the calends of January is December 25.

And another citation: Theophilus of Antioch (ca. 171 – 183 C.E.), in his discussion about the proper time to observe Easter state that the Gauls contended that just as they celebrated the birth of the Lord on December 25, regardless of what day of the week that fell on, so too Christians ought to celebrate Easter on March 25, regardless of what day of the week that fell on.

So there is ample evidence that the nativity of Jesus was being celebrated on December 25 from very shortly after the lifetime of the Apostles.

And the oft-repeated claim that the Roman Catholic Church started the Christmas celebration is also historically incorrect. The Church at Rome at first refused to observe the Feast of the Nativity deeming it an “oriental invention,” because it was primarily observed by the churches of Palestine and Egypt, the churches of these two great centers of Christian doctrine and practice being the primary authority and influence in the earliest development of the faith. The Church at Rome did not add it to their calendar of feasts until the mid 4th century.

But this is only the tip of the iceberg, so to speak, that supports the ancient December 25 date, there is far more to be considered.

2.Luke tells us that the shepherds were keeping their sheep in the fields at night when Jesus was born … But late December is Judea's cold and rainy season. Would shepherds actually keep their fragile flocks out in the open fields on a cold late-December night near Bethlehem?
No responsible shepherd would subject his sheep to the elements at that time of year when cold rains, and occasional snow, are common in that region.

Again, historically inaccurate. Here’s some actual weather data without any anti-Christian bias http://www.myweather2.com/City-Town/Israel/Bethlehem/climate-profile.aspx?month=12

You’ll notice the average night time temperature in Bethlehem on Christmas Eve is 42 degrees F, mild by any standards, and certainly not so cold that woolly sheep (“fragile”?) could not be out in the fields. And I've seen temperatures on Christmas Day in the 60's. Israel has a moderate climate. After all, this is a land of palm trees, and fig trees, and pomegranates, plants that only grow in climates with mild winter temperatures.

But for specific historical references on the actual practice at the time of Jesus’ birth, there are two references in the Talmudic literature (Bezah 40a and Tosephta Bezah iv. 6) that says specifically that during the 2nd Temple times the flocks of sheep laid out both in the summer and in the rainy season, ergo, summer and winter, which directly refutes the unsupported notion that woolly flocks of sheep couldn’t have been out in the fields Christmas Eve because of the weather.

But that aside, the primary issue is that the flock at Bethlehem was no ordinary flock anyway. You must understand that the temple cultus required literally thousands of animals to meet the sacrificial needs, so much so that sacrificial animals was the primary import commodity of Israel during the 2nd temple period (“Jerusalem in the Time of Jesus,” Joachim Jeremias Part One: II. A. 3. c) Josephus records that as many as a quarter million lambs could be slain on Passover alone. But the problem is that Rabbinic laws prevented the keeping of sheep near a city or town or village because of the smell, along with other activities that produced offensive odors. And if you have ever been anywhere near a stockyard then you can appreciate why the Rabbis would not want to have thousands of lambs and goats and cattle kept anywhere near the city. Plus, if you’re familiar with the topography of Jerusalem, the only possible place which could be used for such a purpose would have been the slopes of Mount Scopus north of the city. But with the prevailing winds in winter and spring being from the west and north, the stench would have been blown directly into the city. So the solution was to quarter the animals 5 miles south of the city, at the village of Bethlehem. These flocks of sheep kept in Bethlehem were the “temple flock” spoken of in Talmudic literature, not ordinary flocks. So even if sheep were not kept out in fields at night in winter (which is not historically accurate), that would not apply to the flocks and herds kept at Bethlehem. These were not ordinary sheep but were inspected and then pastured there until they were needed and were brought up to the city for sacrifice.

And a second bit of historical data the Gospel provide to those familiar with the times and culture and laws, these were no ordinary shepherds at Bethlehem. The reason we know this is that shepherds were among the class of Jews who were considered “unclean” because of their occupation, along with tax collectors, weavers, tanners, physicians, sanitation workers, etc. Because a shepherd had to travel with his flock seeking pasturage and water, he was unable to live a “kosher” life and was therefore considered defiled and the people were banned from socializing with them. And yet, on the night of Christ’s birth, we see the shepherds of Bethlehem going freely about the countryside speaking with everyone about the things they had seen and heard. The reason is that these were no ordinary shepherds, they kept watch over the flock of sheep destined for sacrifice in Jerusalem, so they were not isolated from the religious life of the community but in fact played a crucial role in that religious life.

And one more bit of data, this time from archaeology. We know that Bethlehem was the ancestral home of David, and was therefore a royal city. And at one time there was a castle there. Of course, even by the time of Jesus the castle had long since become a ruin. But it is believed that the “tower” from which the shepherds kept watch over the fields that lay just east of Bethlehem was in fact one of the old watchtowers from the royal castle. And there was an ancient prophecy from Micah (4:8) that foretold that the Messianic kingdom would be announced from this watchtower, the “Migdal Eder,” or “watchtower of the flock.” The Talmud also records that the Jews believed, based on that prophecy, that the Messiah would be born in the royal castle. How appropriate that the birth of the Savior should be announced by those very shepherds who kept watch from the royal "tower of the flock" over the lambs destined for sacrifice in Jerusalem.

3.Luke also tells us that Jesus was born at the time of a census ordered by the Roman emperor (Luke 2:1-3). The Romans were brilliant administrators; they certainly would not have ordered people to journey to be registered at a time of year when roads would have been wet and muddy and traveling conditions miserable. Such a move would have been self-defeating on its face.

I’m afraid you have it wrong on this point as well. December would have been the most logical time for a country-wide census. The agricultural year for Israel began in March with the flax and barley harvest and ended in November with the last of the fall planting of the grain crops.

Students tend to think of the agricultural year as something similar to the west, where we plant crops in the spring and harvest in the summer or fall. But in Israel it was different. The primary planting season was the fall. After the long, summer dry-season ended and the rains came in the fall to soften the soil the farmers would go out into the fields and plant their grain crops. The crops would grow over winter and be harvested in spring and early summer. Then the summer dry season began and the fig harvest which was then followed by the vintage in late summer. Then the cycle began anew.

So the period of time between the vintage in late summer and the completion of the planting in late fall was a very busy time and it is unlikely that a census that would require an entire population to be uprooted and moved around would have been conducted then. And same with the spring and early summer when the grain crops had to be harvested. The summer dry season would have been brutal with scorching temperatures and no water. And in late summer the vintage took place. The only time that was economically feasible was in fact the early winter, after the olive harvest was finished and the crops were all planted and there was no more agricultural activity until the spring, and the heaviest rains had not yet begun.

And a second point, while it was Augustus who issued the decree, it was up to Herod to carry it out, and he did so, belatedly because of the intrigues and problems at court, but the census was conducted according to Jewish law, by tribes, which means every person had to return to the ancestral seat of their fathers, unlike the Roman method which required every man to be counted in the city of his birth. And undoubtedly Herod had every reason to try to assure that there was as little disruption to the agricultural-based economy as possible, his tax revenue depended on it.

And a third point, travel in late December certainly did not pose any problem, the heaviest rains were in January and February. There is ample historical evidence that the Jews traveled up to Jerusalem from all over Palestine for Chanukah, which occurs at the same time of year. Jesus even went up to the Temple for the feast one year. (see John 4:35 cf. John 5:1)

4.If the Christmas holiday is an important celebration to honor the birth of Jesus Christ, why is it nowhere mentioned in the Bible? Why didn't Christ instruct His closest followers, His 12 chosen apostles, to keep Christmas? Why didn't they institute or teach it to the early Church?

If the day Jesus was born was not a special day worthy of remembrance, why did the angelic host proclaim “unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, which is Christ the Lord.” In fact, if this day wasn’t worthy of remembrance, why was the nativity account even included in the Gospels? And why does it include so much historical detail about the time and place? Luke certainly made every effort to set the nativity in an historical context.

5. Jeremiah 10:3-4
A tree from the forest is cut down
and worked with an axe by the hands of a craftsman.
4 They decorate it with silver and gold;
they fasten it with hammer and nails
so that it cannot move.
**see the orgin of xmas tree**

I posted a note on these idols spoken of in Jeremiah and the archaeological evidence that shows they were nothing like Christmas trees but were in fact Mediterranean style totem poles with the faces and figures of the goddess Asherah carved into them, which is why in Scripture they are called “Asherim,” plural. To not make this any longer than it already is that post can be read here http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/17220-spiritual-abuse-and-christmas-trees/?p=199956.

6.The Christmas holiday is largely a recycled pagan celebration.
Again, surprising but true! Read it for yourself in just about any encyclopedia.
Consider the customs associated with Christmas. What do decorated evergreen trees, holly, mistletoe, yule logs, a jolly plump man in a fur-lined red suit, sleighs and flying reindeer have to do with the birth of Jesus Christ?
None of these things have anything to do with Him, but they have a lot to do with ancient pagan festivals. (Read the eye-opening details in our free booklet Holidays or Holy Days: Does It Matter Which Days We Keep? )

I’m afraid “encyclopedias” are composed of articles written by modern-day writers. They are not authoritative. To make such claims about historical matters one must provide some evidence, either ancient manuscripts or archaeological artifacts, that support the claims being made. Can you cite some pre-Christian text or clay tablet or stone inscription that states that some ancient pagan religion believed and celebrated what you are claiming they did? Do you reference them in your booklet? Do your sources? Have you verified them? Have you tried?

And what about the date of Dec. 25? How did it come to be assigned as the supposed date of Jesus Christ's birth? Historians Gerard and Patricia Del Re explain:
"The tradition of celebrating December 25 as Christ's birthday came to the Romans from Persia. Mithra, the Persian god of light and sacred contracts, was born out of a rock on December 25. Rome was famous for its flirtations with strange gods and cults, and in the third century the unchristian emperor Aurelian established the festival of Dies Invicti Solis, the Day of the Invincible Sun, on December 25.
"Mithra was an embodiment of the sun, so this period of its rebirth was a major day in Mithraism, which had become Rome's latest official religion . . . It is believed that the emperor Constantine adhered to Mithraism up to the time of his conversion to Christianity. He was probably instrumental in seeing that the major feast of his old religion was carried over to his new faith" ( The Christmas Almanac, 1979, p. 17).

I do not know what kind of “historians” Gerard and Patricia Del Re are, but they obviously have never studied the archaeological evidence on Mithraism. Mithraism was a "mystery" religion of Rome and almost exclusively limited to the Roman military. Being a "mystery" religion there are no actual records of their beliefs as they were secrets shared among the initiates only and not allowed to be written down. But we do have some evidence, over 1000 inscriptions and numerous tauroctony which depicts the central theme of Mithraism, Mithra slaying the bull with Sol the sun god in attendance after which they feasted on the flesh of the bull. Below is an example of Mithraic tauroctony that dates to the 2nd or 3rd century which shows the three primary themes of Mithraism: Mithra being born from a rock, Mithra slaying the bull, and the feast with Sol which followed:

View attachment 146View attachment 147

It should be noted that the “birth” story of Mithra was that he was born from a rock fully grown, as depicted in the birth tauroctony.


The only feast day of Mithraism for which there is any textual or archaeological evidence is the reenactment of the feast that followed the victory of Mithra. According to the inscription on the Virunum album, the feast celebrating the victory of Mithra was observed on June 26.

Mithraism only lasted from the 1st to the 4th century. When Christians destroyed the underground mithraeum, or underground places of worship (of which there were from 650 to 680 throughout the city of Rome), they considered the cult to be so polluted that the Christians refused to even pick up the coins that lay scattered about and which have subsequently been discovered in every mithraeum that has been investigated. Among other items found in these mithraeum is the remains of feasts, including bones and eating utensils. But the most common artifact is an abundance of cherry pits, which supports the inscription that the feast day of Mithra was in June when cherries were harvested.

To conclude this rather lengthy post, there is no actual historical or archaeological record of any ancient religion or culture celebrating December 25 as a festival, and if you read a book or website that claims there is, take note if they actually support their claim with a reference to an ancient text or an archaeological artifact, and if they do you would be well advised to verify the information for yourself.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[Mungo]

Very interesting Pilgrimer.

Thank you for that.