Dont celebrate Christmas...wake up!!

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Pilgrimer

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domenic said:
Before you put Hislop aside, you should first prove, or disprove what Rlaph Woodrow’s claims.
There is a work on Woodrow: : Avram’s Critique of Ralph Woodrow. It appears Ralph was not telling the truth.
As to my priestly training; They tell bold lies.
Actually, the burden is on you and your fellow anti-Christians to prove your wild claims by citing actual historical records such as archaeological artifacts and/or ancient texts. Otherwise, all your claims are nothing more than baseless anti-Christian propaganda. What is so sad is that too many otherwise sincere students have stumbled across these false teachings and without any knowledge of actual history have had their faith subverted and their minds closed to the truth, separating themselves from the body of Christ and judging and condemning what they do not understand.


In Christ,
Pilgrimer
domenic said:
That's funny. Woodrow sat at his kitchen table and read Encyclopedias to prove his point? He should have gone out into the field to gather his facts. Things in Encyclopedias go out of date each year.
While I certainly agree that Encyclopedias are not a final authority on matters of history, I'm struck by your suggestion that Woodrow should have "gone out into the field to gather his facts," by which I assume you are referring to undertaking archaeological investigations? Was that meant to imply that you have done so? I would be interested to know under whose auspices you have conducted your work? I myself have never been fortunate enough to attend a dig in the Mesopotamian region, as with most students what with the ongoing hostilities, so I'm curious how you have managed to slip in and "gather any facts from the field."

In Christ,
Pilgrimer
 

Mungo

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Pilgrimer said:
Actually, the burden is on you and your fellow anti-Christians to prove your wild claims by citing actual historical records such as archaeological artifacts and/or ancient texts. Otherwise, all your claims are nothing more than baseless anti-Christian propaganda. What is so sad is that too many otherwise sincere students have stumbled across these false teachings and without any knowledge of actual history have had their faith subverted and their minds closed to the truth, separating themselves from the body of Christ and judging and condemning what they do not understand.


In Christ,
Pilgrimer
Absolutely right.

For example Avram says:
It seems that Mr. Woodrow would have us to believe that there is no connection between Babylon and Rome. He tells us that his new book, The Babylon Connection?, ‘is an appeal’ to those who have a need to find, ‘Babylonian origins for present-day customs’. But just on a superficial level, where did the Pope get his huge ‘fish’ hat from? (Hislop, p. 114, 215).

"fish hat" !! I find it difficult to believ that people are still flogging that nonensense. But is probably sums up the value of Avram's criticisms of Woodrow


Avram also says:
Mr. Hislop has displayed the vast horizon and spread of paganism from before the beginning of recorded history by matching the recorded identities of the pantheon of the gods and goddesses. In this we see for ourselves the immense network and link back to Babylon.

If Hislop is working 'from before the beginning of recorded history' how can he know anything for certain, much less that there is an "immense network and link back to Babylon"?
 

Pilgrimer

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Mungo said:
Absolutely right.

For example Avram says:
It seems that Mr. Woodrow would have us to believe that there is no connection between Babylon and Rome. He tells us that his new book, The Babylon Connection?, ‘is an appeal’ to those who have a need to find, ‘Babylonian origins for present-day customs’. But just on a superficial level, where did the Pope get his huge ‘fish’ hat from? (Hislop, p. 114, 215).

"fish hat" !! I find it difficult to believ that people are still flogging that nonensense. But is probably sums up the value of Avram's criticisms of Woodrow


Avram also says:
Mr. Hislop has displayed the vast horizon and spread of paganism from before the beginning of recorded history by matching the recorded identities of the pantheon of the gods and goddesses. In this we see for ourselves the immense network and link back to Babylon.

If Hislop is working 'from before the beginning of recorded history' how can he know anything for certain, much less that there is an "immense network and link back to Babylon"?
I know, I've heard all that nonsense. Hislop hated the Catholic Church and his one single purpose was to "prove" his eschatological interpretation was correct, that the Roman Catholic Church was the "Mystery Babylon" of the Revelation. I suppose he thought outright fabrications about history were perfectly acceptable as long as they served to prove what he knew just had to be true. Twisting facts to make them fit beliefs is the hallmark of false teachers.

One of the areas of Christology I have been passionately studying for many, many years is how the things of the Old Covenant foreshadowed and prefigured the things of the New Covenant, and of course an important element of that has been a study of the Temple and it's ministry. And now mind you, I am not and never have been Catholic, and do not agree with everything the Catholic Church teaches and practices. I'm a Protestant so I say these things not necessarily in defense of the Catholic Church, but in defense of the truth.

And the truth is, the source of all the ceremonial and regalia of the Catholic Church, and in fact all the "high churches" including the Coptic, Russian Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, etc., the source is not paganism, far from it, it's Judaism. I won't launch into a lengthy discourse on it, but since you mentioned the priest's miter, let me show you something:


View attachment 149

Notice that on the left is the Jewish priest in the background and High Priest in blue in the foreground. Now look at the priestly "mitre" of the orthodox christian priests. Top left is the Coptic Church, top right Russian Orthodox, bottom left Roman Catholic, and bottom right Eastern Orthodox.

It is blatantly obvious where the priestly headdress for Christian orthodox churches is derived from, and its' not paganism, but Judaism. In fact, the high churches, by very early on adopting so much of the Temple ceremonial has in fact preserved things that otherwise would have been lost after the Temple's destruction in 70 A.D. and the end of the Jewish Temple worship. Music historians suggest that much of the old plainchant (later developed into Gregorian style) was actually derived from the psalmody of ancient Jewish worship and the Levitical choir. In this music form we can hear echoes of the worship music that would have filled the Temple during the time of Jesus as the Levites stood on the 15 steps that led from the Court of Prayer to the upper courts leading the congregation in worship:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Q8i0CYs-CM


But that's all a subject for another day. I just thought since you brought up the priest's mitre you might find that interesting.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

P.S. Information about the Temple music comes from the Mishna, Succah 5:5. Also see the excellent work by Alfred Edersheim "The Temple, It's Ministry and Services as they were at the time of Christ," Chapter II, "Temple Order, Revenues, and Music," page 76 - 81; and also Edersheim's equally classic work, "History of the Jewish Nation."
 

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Mungo

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Indeed, very interesting Pilgrimer.

Thank you.
 

Robertson

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The Bible doesn't say when Jesus was born nor does it give a date of His death. Obviously it doesn't really matter. It wasn't until Constantine incorporated and changed the Christian religion that any birthday was to be celebrated. In changing the empire's religion to Christianity, they wanted to know what Jesus' birthday was and since nobody knew they simply put it into the holiday slot that one of the previously worshipped pagan gods filled. Problem solved and people have a day to celebrate.

All scholarly studies do is try and guess at what His birthday really was, most of them pointing to the spring time. But again, it doesn't matter. There is no commandment to celebrate His birthday to gain salvation.

What this person might be arguing about is the total commercialization of the holiday, or all of them for that matter. For that, I agree.
 

Pilgrimer

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Robertson said:
It wasn't until Constantine incorporated and changed the Christian religion that any birthday was to be celebrated. In changing the empire's religion to Christianity, they wanted to know what Jesus' birthday was and since nobody knew they simply put it into the holiday slot that one of the previously worshipped pagan gods filled. Problem solved and people have a day to celebrate.
That is a popular theory but historically it is grossly inaccurate. There are written records that Christians were observing the feast of the nativity on December 25 over 150 years before the time of Constantine.

It is also inaccurate to suggest that Constantine "changed the empire's religion to Christianity." Emperor Galerius in 311 A.D. stopped the Roman persecution of Christians ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edict_of_Toleration_by_Galerius

... and then Constantine in February 313 A.D. issued the "Edict of Milan" which declared that Roman citizens were free to practice the religion of their choice, including Christianity. In truth, all Constantine's edict did was legalize Christianity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edict_of_Milan

He also ordered that the property confiscated from Christians during the most recent, and particularly bloody persecution under Diocletian and Galerius, be returned to them, including churches, and that restitution was to be paid out of the state coffers. Constantine did himself adopt Christianity, but he neither made it the official religion of the Empire nor yet did he use his power to influence or in any way control the development of Christian doctrine or practice. In point of fact, Constantine's bishop and all the royal court were Arians but the council at Nicea adopted the Trinitarian view as the official doctrine of Christendom.

Also, it was in fact Emperor Theodosius in 381 A.D. who made Christianity the official state religion of Rome, not Constantine.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodosius_I

So while your comment may represent a popular theory, it is in fact historically inaccurate.

Robertson said:
All scholarly studies do is try and guess at what His birthday really was, most of them pointing to the spring time.
Well, I would say it is a bit more than "guessing." There is a considerable amount of historical evidence in the Scriptures, and coupled with the rather extensive amount of secondary historical and archaeological material we can certainly make some very educated deductions about the dates. And you are incorrect, "most" scholars with any expertise in 1st century Jewish history have concluded that the date traditionally held since the earliest period as that of the birth and death of Jesus is in fact supported by the weight of evidence.

Robertson said:
But again, it doesn't matter. There is no commandment to celebrate His birthday to gain salvation.
I am not familiar with anyone suggesting that celebrating Jesus' birth is somehow required for salvation. But I cannot agree that the historical reality of the life and times of Jesus somehow "doesn't matter." Christianity is not a religion based on myth and cunningly devised fable. It is very soundly rooted in history and when the enemies of Christ seek to undermine the historical credibility of the Christian faith it is not a matter to be brushed off as though it is of no consequence.


Robertson said:
What this person might be arguing about is the total commercialization of the holiday, or all of them for that matter. For that, I agree.
No, generally the charge is that Christianity has adopted a pagan holiday and the gross commercialization and abuses of the holiday are somehow supposed to prove it's "pagan" origins. But in truth the commercialization and abuses of the holidays are not because Christians adopted pagan celebrations 1688 years ago, but rather quite the opposite, pagans and atheists have adopted Christian holidays, stripped them of their religious significance, and then filled the void with material excesses. It is pagans who have adopted Christians holidays, not the other way around.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer