Doubt: Am I Really Saved?

[Adam]

All flesh on earth that believes

That's not what John the Baptist said. He said "all flesh", no exceptions or qualifiers. Why are you trying to change the Bible to suit your understanding? Just accept it for what it says.

“And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.”

That is it. Period.

Whether you believe or not, or sin or not, only determines how much you must suffer during your purification, if one is needed. That is not to minimize the painfulness of the purification, but only to say that chastisement is not an end in itself but is part of the process of becoming sinless.

There is no purgatory no matter what Dante thinks.

On the contrary, there is no hell, only purgatory. (As is commonly understood). Otherwise God would not be all-loving. Otherwise sinners would not enter the Kingdom of God at different times. Otherwise, there would not be many lashes for some and few lashes for others. Otherwise a man could not be saved through fire. Otherwise your soul could not be lifted out of hell. All of these concepts have been quoted in this thread already.

 

[Adam]

Those not written in the lamb's book of life are cast into the lake of fire.

Here is a riddle for you: how can there be pain when there is no body? How can an all loving God torture his children for eternity? What purpose does God's chastisement serve?

The lake of fire is penance. The second death is the death of the evil person that you were, to become sinless.

I say this once more, here is your lake of fire:

Malachi 3
3 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts.

2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness.

 

[Adam]

Here is your lake of fire

Luke 3
16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

 

[1stCenturyLady]

No we just want you to not begin 'questions' with false assumptions. If you want to know what I believe and how I live just ask without all the innuendo of being this or that.

I doesn't matter how long we may be in leadership positions, simple rules of courtesy and objective debate still applies. I've found many times the longer someone is in leadership the less they remember such things, because they get used to judging things by appearance rather than by righteousness.

I've been there and done that and unnecessarily estranged a few people with assuming I knew what they were talking about and not bothering to ask them to clarify. Instead I just plowed right in with the truth and did more harm than good.

"But we were gentle among you, even as a nurse cherisheth her children."

We are called to correct and rebuke, but let's just make sure we're rebuking the right thing.

Answer my questions for everyone. What do you know?

 

[Michiah-Imla]

So why do you not listen when the Bible says that God will ultimately save all mankind?

“Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.” (Luke 13:23-24)

The idea of eternal hell is contrary to that of God's eternal love

A fictional unbiblical dichotomy.

“And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.” (Revelation 20:10)

And:

“And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.” (Revelation 20:15)

Where we know what happens for ever and ever.

Case closed.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

I came from a state of ignorance, having been raised in Catholic school with traditional views on etetnal hell, then leaving Catholicism to become a traditional Baptist believing in sola scriptura, only to leave this too

And now you’re in another heretical cult…

Get back to the Holy Bible!

 

[Adam]

“Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.” (Luke 13:23-24)

So I guess you're saying that the gospel of Luke is self-contradictory then? Saying one thing then the opposite? Or perhaps it is the understanding of what is meant by this that is wrong. You cannot nullify one piece of scripture with another. You must nullify your own preconceived notions and look at it with fresh eyes.

Yes there are few who will be able to find the true path, which is, simply enough, universal love, as Jesus taught. Luckily, God will not leave your soul in hell (Psalms) and all flesh will see the salvation of God (Luke).

Now why is universal love so important? - here is my question to you. Don't just say "because Jesus commanded it". There is a logical reason behind it that I want you to consider... Why does God care if you are nice or mean to people?

Matthew 22
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Original greek: homoia
Definition: like, resembling, the same as

The two great commandments are actually the same commandment.

Luke 17
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

God is within men. Not one man or a group of men, but all men.

Genesis 1
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

God isn't going to destroy a part of himself.

Isaiah 49:15
Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee.

A fictional unbiblical dichotomy.

“And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.” (Revelation 20:10)

Translation error: the word used is
aiōnas and aiōnōn

Aion (or aeon) is a fixed length of time. So with this in mind, they are saying, they will be tormented to "ages of ages".

In other words, they will be tormented for a really really long time, but once again, not forever.

“And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.” (Revelation 20:15)

Where we know what happens for ever and ever.

Case closed.

For an aion. Until God lifts you out of hell (psalms).

If you hate the book of psalms for some reason, here, have Tobit.

Tobit 13:2
For he doth scourge, and hath mercy: he leadeth down to hell, and bringeth up again: neither is there any that can avoid his hand.

Tobit says exactly the same thing as Psalms.

 

[Adam]

And now you’re in another heretical cult…

I am in no sect, I exercise my own reason.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Translation error

Reader error.

 

[Adam]

Reader error.

Original greek:

Revelation 20:10 Greek Text Analysis

Strong's Greek: 165. αἰών (aión) -- a space of time, an age

biblehub.com

aión: a space of time, an age
Original Word: αἰών, ῶνος, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: aión
Phonetic Spelling: (ahee-ohn')
Definition: a space of time, an age
Usage: an age, a cycle (of time), especially of the present age as contrasted with the future age, and of one of a series of ages stretching to infinity.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Original greek:

Don’t give me your “Greek” baloney!

Translators on the English Standard Version even translate the verse as the King James:

“and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.” (Revelation 20:10)

If you wish to make a Greek dictionary your authority, have at it! Translate your own Bible to suit your desire!

I will stand on the King James Bible!

 

[Adam]

Don’t give me your “Greek” baloney!

Translators on the English Standard Version even translate the verse as the King James:

“and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.” (Revelation 20:10)

If you wish to make a Greek dictionary your authority, have it! Translate your own Bible to suit your desire!

I will stand on the King James Bible!

KJV and ESV are both translations. They are both based on the original Greek, which says "aion". So quoting KJV or ESV or NIV can not negate the original greek which they are derived from.

Don't trust in following the masses, because the masses will be deceived.

Jesus and the apostles prophesied of false doctrines corrupting faith in God:

Matthew 7:15
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Revelation 13:11
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

Jesus condemned negating scriptures through traditional religious doctrines:

Mark 7:13
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Jesus said that following the masses will not be the right path:

Matthew 7
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

You can't have any priest or institution save you, you will have to seek God for yourself and find your own path.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

quoting KJV or ESV or NIV can not negate the original greek

Hey!

Genius!

MANY EXPERT TRANSLATORS HAVE MORE KNOWLEDGE IN THIS FIELD THAN A PERSON LIKE YOU SITTING AT HOME WITH A LEXICON.

Are you serious??!!

GIVE ME A BREAK!!

 

[Adam]

Hey!

Genius!

MANY EXPERT TRANSLATORS HAVE MORE KNOWLEDGE IN THIS FIELD THAN A PERSON LIKE YOU SITTING AT HOME WITH A LEXICON.

Are you serious??!!

GIVE ME A BREAK!!

Mark 7:13
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

 

[Adam]

The early church fathers believed in what I am saying now. Do they, who were closest to the apostles, have more, or less, authority than modern day doctrinally-correct translators?

Origen of Alexandria | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy

iep.utm.edu

"Origen did not believe in the eternal suffering of sinners in hell. For him, all souls, including the devil himself, will eventually achieve salvation, even if it takes innumerable ages to do so; "

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition

This is insanity.

YOU are the one doing that.

Your word of God is only found in the so-called “original” Greek (which doesn’t exist by the way).

What do you do with words that were originally spoken in Hebrew and then translated into the Greek like Acts 22:1-21?

Huh, huh??

Try that one on for size!

I prefer not to get lost in weeds of Greek definitions… it’s just a vain show on your part.

Sadly, I bet many are impressed with the Greek-speak mumbo jumbo.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Origen did not believe in the eternal suffering

Then he didn’t believe what the scriptures say, like you.

Birds of a feather…

 

[Adam]

This is insanity.

YOU are the one doing that.

Tell me then what Luke 3:5-6 says. This will be the fourth or fifth time I have posted it now, and I am becoming exceedingly efficient at it.

5 Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth;

6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.

Until you can somehow debunk or dispute or refute this scripture, within its original context as a self-contained sermon, I won't move on. You can't nullify or abrogate it or muddle the understanding of it.

1 Corinthians 15
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Look, I can even produce more passages with the exact same message. There are many such. You will have to debunk each and every one of them.

Your word of God is only found in the so-called “original” Greek (which doesn’t exist by the way).

It is found in at least a dozen passages which have been posted already in this thread, and not in the slightest have they been debunked or refuted.

If your best bet at challenging these verses, is to use a questionably translated passage (aion translated to eternal) in an attempt to nullify previous passages, then you must admit, your current understanding is not defensible.

What do you do with words that were originally spoken in Hebrew and then translated into the Greek like Acts 22:1-21?

Huh, huh??

Try that one on for size!

If the Bible is divinely inspired in its original texts, then we trust the original texts to be an accurate translation of what was said in Hebrew.

I prefer not to get lost in weeds of Greek definitions… it’s just a vain show on your part.

Sadly, I bet many are impressed with the Greek-speak mumbo jumbo.

Unfortunately, many would rather put their souls in the hands of wolves in sheep's clothing than to simply trust in the promise of God as is stated clearly in the Bible, in simple language, which anyone can understand, disguised only by biases and false teachings which prevents one from comprehending.

Matthew 13
And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

You have to abandon blatantly false doctrines, like that a loving God torments people for eternity, in order to begin to truly understand the Bible and its teachings.

Then he didn’t believe what the scriptures say, like you.

Birds of a feather…

From the encyclopedia article I posted:

Origen’s main biblical proof-text is 1 Corinthians 15:25-28, especially verse 28, which speaks of the time “when all things shall be subdued unto him [Christ], then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all”

I am of the same opinion. 1 Corinthians 15 is the most important chapter in the entire Bible. It discusses the very nature of the soul and afterlife.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

No we just want you to not begin 'questions' with false assumptions. If you want to know what I believe and how I live just ask without all the innuendo of being this or that.

I doesn't matter how long we may be in leadership positions, simple rules of courtesy and objective debate still applies. I've found many times the longer someone is in leadership the less they remember such things, because they get used to judging things by appearance rather than by righteousness.

I've been there and done that and unnecessarily estranged a few people with assuming I knew what they were talking about and not bothering to ask them to clarify. Instead I just plowed right in with the truth and did more harm than good.

"But we were gentle among you, even as a nurse cherisheth her children."

We are called to correct and rebuke, but let's just make sure we're rebuking the right thing.

You rebuke with mocking? That's hypocritical. Look in the mirror. Okay, we are even, so STOP.

I really want to know what you BELIEVE about sinlessness. That is holiness. Peter says, 1 Peter 1:16 “Be holy, for I am holy.”

It seems you don't think Jesus meant for us to be sinless in this lifetime. Is that true or not? I'm not talking "sinless perfection" so don't even go there for now. That can be achieved as Paul finally did, but it takes all the fruit of the Spirit to be completely mature.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Then he didn’t believe what the scriptures say, like you.

Birds of a feather…

Think about what it would take for us to be immortal which is what eternal suffering would imply.