Michiah-Imla
Well-Known Member
Stop right there!
You continue to use the prophecy regarding Christ as a spring board for your false doctrine.
Stop your heresy!
Doubt: Am I Really Saved?
- Thread starter sheariah07
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Stop right there!
You continue to use the prophecy regarding Christ as a spring board for your false doctrine.
Stop your heresy!
Luke 3
6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.
You still haven't addressed this without trying to nullify it by abrogation with a different verse.
Already addressed this as a mistranslation of Aion (eon).
The lake of fire is penance
This is the exact same translation error of misusing aion (eon) to mean eternal
But you are dead and have no body
Beware the broad path
In the modern era for example, you have the space age, information age, enlightenment era, victorian era, etc. So you have an age (modern era) of ages (victorian age, space age, etc.).
So saying "for ages of ages" is like saying "you're going to be doing penance for huge swaths of time, not just an age, but an age of ages"
Michiah-Imla
Well-Known Member
I have.
You’re just diluting the discussion.
You are a hardline sectarian.
A waste of time.
Not just "an age of ages", rather, the ages of the ages, that is, the chunks of time that encompass the chunks of time. It's an expression of forever.
Much love!
No, you only post other (unrelated) scriptures in the hopes that it will cancel out the scriptures I've already posted by their apparent contradiction. You make no effort to syncretize them or look at them together. So you haven't proven a single one of your assertions.
What sect do you suppose I am? I am using reason here. I am looking at the scriptures and seeing what they say without putting it under the lens of any sort of doctrine. And when one scripture seems to contradict another, I look at both of them and see how they can complement eachother rather than trying to act like one cancels out the other.
Let's change the avenue of discussion a little.
1 Corinthians 15
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Tell me what this means to you
Revelation 22
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Tell me what this means to you.
These verses will tell you the nature of our existence - tell me why you think God created the universe. If you tell me this, then you will understand the role we play in it.
It's definitely poetic language, there are a few ways to look at it:
-The devil, false prophet and beast are not actually living beings, but are concepts - the devil is rebellion, the false prophet is ignorance, and the beast is carnality. So in this sense, they will all be ultimately destroyed forever when Mankind is fully redeemed.
-The devil and false prophet(s) and beast(s) are indeed living spirits, in which case, they are powerful demons that control the lives of millions of people, in which case, when they are forced into repentence, they will be forced to repent for the sins of the millions of people they influenced. If each sinner experiences an aion (an age) of torment, then the evil spirits will suffer millions of ages of torment. Or, ages of ages.
-The devil, false prophet(s) and beast(s), will suffer for ever and ever - but
2 Peter 3
8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.
Or in other words - the spirit realm exists outside of physical spacetime. So they must experience all of the suffering they caused within "eternity" while being outside of eternity. In other words - a heightened sense of consciousness. Eternity will come to them in an instant and they will be forced to repent.
In either case however, the ultimate fate of all things is to serve Jesus:
1 Corinthians 15
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
Michiah-Imla
Well-Known Member
Michiah-Imla
Well-Known Member
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
It the Tree of Life in hell??? Why make a tree of life if we are already immortal?
Your belief could be because of sadism in your heart. What if your name isn't in the Book of Life? Would you still hope the same? Matthew 7:21-23
In what way am I in error? Your entire argument hinges on the definition of the word "Aion". It is a rickety argument to begin with, which completely collapses when confronted with other scriptures or even basic logic - how can an all-loving God torture people eternally? Your doctrine is based on the slimmest of doubts in the face of abundant evidence and reasoning to the contrary.
So consider this - why did God create the universe?
Contemplating this will show you the truth of the matter.
Michiah-Imla
Well-Known Member
Here is every possible translation
New International Version
And all people will see God’s salvation.’”
New Living Translation
And then all people will see the salvation sent from God.’”
English Standard Version
and all flesh shall see the salvation of God.’”
Berean Standard Bible
And all humanity will see God’s salvation.’ ”
Berean Literal Bible
And all flesh will see the salvation of God."
King James Bible
And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.
New King James Version
And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.’ ”
New American Standard Bible
AND ALL FLESH WILL SEE THE SALVATION OF GOD!’”
NASB 1995
AND ALL FLESH WILL SEE THE SALVATION OF GOD.’”
NASB 1977
AND ALL FLESH SHALL SEE THE SALVATION OF GOD.’”
Legacy Standard Bible
AND ALL FLESH WILL SEE THE SALVATION OF GOD.’”
Amplified Bible
AND ALL MANKIND SHALL SEE THE SALVATION OF GOD.’”
Christian Standard Bible
and everyone will see the salvation of God.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
and everyone will see the salvation of God.
American Standard Version
And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“And everybody will see The Life of God.”
Contemporary English Version
Then everyone will see the saving power of God.'"
Douay-Rheims Bible
And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.
English Revised Version
And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.
GOD'S WORD® Translation
All people will see the salvation that God gives.'"
Good News Translation
The whole human race will see God's salvation!'"
International Standard Version
Everyone will see the salvation that God has provided.'"
Literal Standard Version
And all flesh will see the salvation of God.”
Majority Standard Bible
And all humanity will see God’s salvation.’”
New American Bible
and all flesh shall see the salvation of God.’ ”
NET Bible
and all humanity will see the salvation of God.'"
New Revised Standard Version
and all flesh shall see the salvation of God.’”
New Heart English Bible
And all humanity will see the salvation of God.'"
Webster's Bible Translation
And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.
Weymouth New Testament
and then shall all mankind see God's salvation.'"
World English Bible
All flesh will see God’s salvation.’”
Young's Literal Translation
and all flesh shall see the salvation of God.'
Michiah-Imla
Well-Known Member
Really?
What’s in your heart that causes you to pervert biblical doctrine?
The truth is the truth.
You do not alter the truth simply because you cannot conform to it.
Be a humble and obedient reader of the word of God, not a highminded scholar who changes the word with word games at a whim.
Michiah-Imla
Well-Known Member
@Adam
What’s with the wall of copy and paste text?
I already showed you the context of that verse. You can paste it 1,000,000 times in every interpretation and it doesn’t change the fact that this will happen:
“…the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:28-29)
Man you’re stubborn!
What’s with the wall of copy and paste text?
I already showed you the context of that verse. You can paste it 1,000,000 times in every interpretation and it doesn’t change the fact that this will happen:
“…the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:28-29)
Man you’re stubborn!
Did you not accuse me of trying to alter the translation of the Bible? I posted my supporting scripture, with every possible translation to refute this idea.
No, you posted a verse from a completely different book, and arbitrarily decided that the verse you posted negated the verse I posted. You made no attempt to reconcile the meanings of the two verses.
Does this refute anything I have said? I already said as much, those who have done evil will be forced into repentence before seeing salvation.
There is no need for me to abrogate your verse, it compliments what I am saying. What you are saying is, essentially, the gospel of Luke is wrong, and that all flesh won't see the salvation of God. That is the flaw with your argument and why it is infeasible.
Michiah-Imla
Well-Known Member
You get that understanding from this verse?:
“…the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:28-29)
How in God’s name do you get the interpretation, “forced into repentence before seeing salvation” from reading “resurrection of damnation”?
You’ve lost your cottonpickin’ mind!
Michiah-Imla
Well-Known Member
Oh, the “completely different book” rebuke again…
No no no.
IT’S SUPPOSED TO HELP YOU UNDERSTAND THAT “ALL” IS ALL WHO SATISFY THE CONDITIONS IN THE OTHER SCRIPTURES!!!!
Psalm 16:10You get that understanding from this verse?:
“…the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:28-29)
How in God’s name do you get the interpretation, “forced into repentence before seeing salvation” from reading “resurrection of damnation”?
You’ve lost your cottonpickin’ mind!
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Tobit 13:2
For he afflicts, and he shows mercy; he leads down to Hades, and brings up again, and there is no one who can escape his hand.
Yes - hell is temporary. You can read it here yourself, I have posted these verses many times already. I can post even more verses if you are not satisfied.
Proverbs 3:2
For whom the Lord loves He reproves,
Even as a father corrects the son in whom he delights.
The purpose of punishment is correction.
For a sinner, this is the lifecycle:
Death -> Judgement -> Damnation -> Corrective Punishment -> Repentence -> Salvation
Notice how this viewpoint satisfies all the scriptures, whereas the modern view of
Death -> Judgement -> Mercyless Punishment
Only satisfies a few of the scriptures but is not compatible with others. It negates Luke 3, Psalm 16, Tobit 13 and Proverbs 3, among others. You offer no explanation for why these scriptures deserve to be negated, you cannot find any translation errors, you simply assume they are unimportant for some reason you haven't expressed.
Therefore, my argument is that the viewpoint which satisfies ALL scriptures, and not just some, is the most correct viewpoint.
The point of me saying that, is to point out that Luke 3:4-6 is a completely self-contained sermon. There are no qualifiers added to it. There are no ifs ands or buts. It is simply this:Oh, the “completely different book” rebuke again…
No no no.
IT’S SUPPOSED TO HELP YOU UNDERSTAND THAT “ALL” IS ALL WHO SATISFY THE CONDITIONS IN THE OTHER SCRIPTURES!!!!
Luke 3
4 As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
5 Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth;
6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.
7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
So don't you think John the Baptist would have added in "but only if God likes you enough" to his sermon that ended in verse 6? John the Baptist clearly says here though, that God will MAKE you straight, so all flesh will see the salvation of God. That's the end of the sermon. -THEN- (as it says in verse 7, implying he is now beginning another sermon) he begins addressing the crowd again and telling them that if they want to be saved by God's favor and not by God's chastisement, they will need to repent.
So in other words, you're trying to say "well no actually John the Baptist was wrong, he didn't know how salvation works, this verse tells you how it actually works". You're not trying to add understanding to his sermon, you are trying to wipe away his sermon. If you want to post a verse that you want to link to Luke 3:4-6, you must respect Luke 3:4-6 as being true and valid and self-contained.
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