Doubting Thomas

[101G]

You mean like atheists and other religions who do not believe Jesus rose from the dead?

nope, not only.....

PICJAG

 

[Nancy]

Thanks for the OP
bum rap for thomas? I don't know. but one thing for sure he has a lot of kinfolk alive and well today.

PICJAG.

Hahaha, for sure!

 

[Nancy]

nope, not only.....

PICJAG

Many "Christians"...

 

[CharismaticLady]

nope, not only.....

PICJAG

No Christian doubts it.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

And Jesus chided Thomas for having to see with his eye - while praising those who believe without seeing.

No - we shouldn't be like Thomas because he showed a lack of faith..

Faith doesn't and shouldn't come only from from seeing . . .

Thomas is being a Real Disciple, because he seeks a firsthand account. He wants to see for himself. There is a desire for personal experience. Secondhand accounts from others is not sufficient for Thomas.

Elihoenai, God bless you; what you say, is true. Secondhand accounts from others were not sufficient for Thomas. He desired personal experience but the experience of true knowledge from the Scriptures, and not from physical-emotional feeling.


To understand this, one must keep in mind what Theophilus wrote in the OP!

John 11 tells of the death of Lazarus. Jesus and his disciples were in Galilee and Jesus decided they must return to Judea. Here was how most of the disciples reacted to this.

Then after this he said to the disciples, “Let us go to Judea again.”The disciples said to him, “Rabbi, the Jews were just now seeking to stone you, and are you going there again?” John 11:7,8

Here is how Thomas reacted.

So Thomas said to his fellow disciples, “Let us also go, that we may die with him.” John 11:16

This is not the response of a doubter; instead it shows that Thomas loved Jesus and was even willing to sacrifice his life for him. Thomas never doubted before the crucifixion. ... Thomas got a bum rap. He was no more doubting than the rest of the disciples and the only reason he doubted and the others didn’t was because they had seen the resurrected Christ. When the women came back from the empty tomb and after seeing the risen Christ, the disciples also doubted. To me, there is no doubt that Thomas was a strong believer and a powerful missionary used by God to the glory of God.

<<This is not the response of a doubter; instead it shows that Thomas>> SEARCHED THE SCRIPTURES for the Messiah and KNEW that if this one called the Saviour of his people – Jesus - fulfils them, He must be the Messiah—it could not be otherwise! For realising this, wrote Theophilus, <<Thomas got a bum rap. He was no more doubting than the rest of the disciples and the only reason he doubted and the others didn’t was because they had seen the resurrected Christ.>>


Thomas was <<no more doubting than the rest of the disciples>>. In fact, Thomas was the only one who did not doubt, while the others believed only AFTER and BECAUSE they had seen the resurrected Christ and AFTER and BECAUSE HE, had OPENED their eyes to recognise that He was the Risen Lord Jesus! Every one saw Him, but no one believed it was Jesus, WHAT BELIEVED HE WAS THE CHRIST!

Therefore, not Thomas, but the others, who “eight days later” - than at first – “they for fear of the Jews were thronged together” (as Karl Barth said, like wet fowl on their stillage sheltered against the weather), <<got a bum rap>> with Jesus’ words, “Blessed are they that (like you Thomas) have not seen and yet have believed .. and be not faithless (like everyone else around you Thomas) who yet have not believed.”


I say again, Only Thomas who feared not to say, Lord, we know not; how can we know?, "was not with them" while the real doubters were hiding. Thomas was not with them eight days before because he was “searching the Scriptures daily in the temple”. Thomas knew the Anointed went up to Jerusalem to die and he was prepared to die with Him because Thomas BELIEVED. And Thomas studied the Scriptures for TWO PARTICULARS: the prophesies of the holes in the hands of the Anointed Saviour and the piercing of his side. The, two, most specific pieces of information in the entire Scriptures given, that would MARK Him and PROVE Him the true and only Redeemer God of his people.

So the only true student – disciple – of the twelve chosen, was the son of Didimus, the Twin, Thomas wrongly called the doubting Thomas.


Now this is so obvious in the Gospel of John it cannot have happened or been recorded but through the Providence and Breathing of the Spirit of God! Read chapter 20 verses 24 and on. It reads like the minutes taken of a business meeting. Jesus was the Chair; his greeting courteous but almost curt. He “came”, not to say “Peace”, but to reprimand for unbelief. The doors being shut, On the agenda today, Thomas, Reach hither ... DID Thomas reach thither? No! he scrutinised all the Laws and Bylaws, it’s clear as daylight, “Thou art my Lord and my God!”

No need to look in your hands Lord, the Almighty formed them so – it is Written; how can I thrust my hand into your side, like I’m a mourner in bitterness for Thee, my Saviour, King? – it is Written so.

“Jesus said unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen Me—SEARCHING THE SCRIPTURE WHICH TESTIFY OF ME—thou HAST, believed”—Jesus’ own testimony of who the doubters and who the solitary believer in that room were.

Meeting adjourned.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Apparently, the Roman Catholic Inquisition is ongoing and we are on the receiving end.

Ian Paisley Oxford Union Debate 1967 (Clip)

Ian Paisley's idiotic arguments about the Eucharist aside - what does this have to do with Thomas's remarks from John 20:25 or an Inquisition??

Stay on topic . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Elihoenai, God bless you; what you say, is true. Secondhand accounts from others were not sufficient for Thomas. He desired personal experience but the experience of true knowledge from the Scriptures, and not from physical-emotional feeling.

To understand this, one must keep in mind what Theophilus wrote in the OP!

<<This is not the response of a doubter; instead it shows that Thomas>> SEARCHED THE SCRIPTURES for the Messiah and KNEW that if this one called the Saviour of his people – Jesus - fulfils them, He must be the Messiah—it could not be otherwise! For realising this, wrote Theophilus, <<Thomas got a bum rap. He was no more doubting than the rest of the disciples and the only reason he doubted and the others didn’t was because they had seen the resurrected Christ.>>

Thomas was <<no more doubting than the rest of the disciples>>. In fact, Thomas was the only one who did not doubt, while the others believed only AFTER and BECAUSE they had seen the resurrected Christ and AFTER and BECAUSE HE, had OPENED their eyes to recognise that He was the Risen Lord Jesus! Every one saw Him, but no one believed it was Jesus, WHAT BELIEVED HE WAS THE CHRIST!

Therefore, not Thomas, but the others, who “eight days later” - than at first – “they for fear of the Jews were thronged together” (as Karl Barth said, like wet fowl on their stillage sheltered against the weather), <<got a bum rap>> with Jesus’ words, “Blessed are they that (like you Thomas) have not seen and yet have believed .. and be not faithless (like everyone else around you Thomas) who yet have not believed.”

So I say again, Only Thomas who feared not to say, Lord, we know not; how can we know?, "was not with them" while the real doubters were hiding. Thomas was not with them eight days before because he was “searching the Scriptures daily in the temple”. Thomas knew the Anointed went up to Jerusalem to die and he was prepared to die with Him because Thomas BELIEVED. And Thomas studied the Scriptures for TWO PARTICULARS: the prophesies of the holes in the hands of the Anointed Saviour and the piercing of his side. The, two, most specific pieces of information in the entire Scriptures given, that would MARK Him and PROVE Him the true and only Redeemer God of his people.

So the only true student – disciple – of the twelve chosen, was the son of Didimus, the Twin, Thomas wrongly called the doubting Thomas.

Now this is so obvious in the Gospel of John it cannot have happened or been recorded but through the Providence and Breathing of the Spirit of God! Read chapter 20 verses 24 and on. It reads like the minutes taken of a business meeting. Jesus was the Chair; his greeting courteous but almost curt. He “came”, not to say “Peace”, but to reprimand for unbelief. The doors being shut, On the agenda today, Thomas, Reach hither ... DID Thomas reach thither? No! he scrutinised all the Laws and Bylaws, it’s clear as daylight, “Thou art my Lord and my God!”

No need to look in your hands Lord, the Almighty formed them so – it is Written; how can I thrust my hand into your side, like I’m a mourner in bitterness for Thee, my Saviour, King? – it is Written so.

“Jesus said unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen Me—SEARCHING THE SCRIPTURE WHICH TESTIFY OF ME—thou HAST, believed”—Jesus’ own testimony of who the doubters and who the solitary believer in that room were.

Meeting adjourned.

You are ADDING to Scripture things about Thomas that simply aren't there by attempting to put a philosophical twist on the story.

Thomas DID doubt - and Jesus held him accountable for it. He rebuked him and told him that he had to SEE Him to believe - and blessed those who believe WITHOUT seeing.

What YOU are adding to the story not only doesn't fit Christ's rebuke - it is NOT in Scripture.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

You are ADDING to Scripture things about Thomas that simply aren't there by attempting to put a philosophical twist on the story.

Thomas DID doubt - and Jesus held him accountable for it. He rebuked him and told him that he had to SEE Him to believe - and blessed those who believe WITHOUT seeing.

What YOU are adding to the story not only doesn't fit Christ's rebuke - it is NOT in Scripture.

You have put the Roman Catholic 'twist' - distortion, to Scripture. No Protestant would have expected less from any papa worshipper.

 

[FHII]

Then after this he said to the disciples, “Let us go to Judea again.”The disciples said to him, “Rabbi, the Jews were just now seeking to stone you, and are you going there again?”
John 11:7,8 ESV
Here is how Thomas reacted.

So Thomas, called the Twin, said to his fellow disciples, “Let us also go, that we may die with him.”

Jesus went to raise Lazarus; Thomas wanted to go to die with him. Admirable, but he wasn't listening to Jesus. He was listening to his fellow disciples' fear. Jesus kind of shrugged off the threats and went anyway.

This is actually more doubting. It's admirable, but so out of tune with what Jesus was saying.

Thomas did doubt. But as Enoch111 did a great job of explaining, they all did. And except for Judas, Peter committed the worst act of doubt of all of them.

One small detail people miss about Thomas is in John 20. Thomas declares to the others he won't believe it until he sees and puts his finger in the nail Prints and put his hand into his side. Jesus appears and tells him to do so, that he might believe. But Thomas DIDN'T. He saw and that was enough. He didn't have to actually touch the wounds as he said.

Jesus said, you have seen me and believed. Blessed are they that don't see me and believe (today, that's us!).

Yes, Thomas doubted. So did all the disciples. So did the women, yes... Even mom! None of the Apostles were flawless; they all had some pretty bad character traits of varying degrees. That's what makes them perfect Apostles, in a sense:imperfect men doing a perfect God's work.

In the end, they all believed. And though Thomas doubted, he just needed to see him and not touch him. He then believed and had faith. He then went on to be one of the 12 who turned the world upside down and after 2000 years, we are still talking about him.

Yes, he doubted, but he got over it and is a true hero of the Bible.

 

[Joseph77]

Jesus said, you have seen me and believed. Blessed are they that don't see me and believe (today, that's us!).

Who?

 

[Joseph77]

You have put the Roman Catholic 'twist' - distortion, to Scripture. No Protestant would have expected less from any papa worshipper.

When Scripture is put lower than tradition, that is never authorized by God, nor is it ever good at all, not even a little bit, ever.

 

[Elihoenai]

Ian Paisley's idiotic arguments about the Eucharist aside - what does this have to do with Thomas's remarks from John 20:25 or an Inquisition??

Stay on topic . . .

@BreadOfLife, would you like to enlighten us as to why 1.3 Billion people believe that prayer from a Sinful and Fallen Roman Catholic Priest transforms bread and wine into the actual Body and Blood of Messiah/Christ? And, if it were true that this transformation takes place, why do your members Sin habitually and/or cannot stop Sinning? Why are your members not a Doubting Thomas?


Transubstantiation

Transubstantiation (Latin: transsubstantiatio; Greek: μετουσίωσις metousiosis) is, according to the teaching of the Catholic Church, "the change of the whole substance of bread into the substance of the Body of Christ and of the whole substance of wine into the substance of his Blood. This change is brought about in the eucharistic prayer through the efficacy of the word of Christ and by the action of the Holy Spirit. However, the outward characteristics of bread and wine, that is the 'eucharistic species', remain unaltered."[1] In this teaching, the notions of "substance" and "transubstantiation" are not linked with any particular theory of metaphysics.

Transubstantiation - Wikipedia

 

[theophilus]

Today, billions do not believe.

They are without excuse,

as shown throughout all God's Word and Plan and Purpose in Jesus.

Thomas trusted, and believed. So he is saved.

Blessed are those who believe, trust, without seeing.

There are many who don't believe because they have never heard. We need to support the missionaries who are telling them the gospel.

 

[Illuminator]

@BreadOfLife, would you like to enlighten us as to why 1.3 Billion people believe that prayer from a Sinful and Fallen Roman Catholic Priest transforms bread and wine into the actual Body and Blood of Messiah/Christ? And, if it were true that this transformation takes place, why do your members Sin habitually and/or cannot stop Sinning? Why are your members not a Doubting Thomas?


Transubstantiation

Transubstantiation (Latin: transsubstantiatio; Greek: μετουσίωσις metousiosis) is, according to the teaching of the Catholic Church, "the change of the whole substance of bread into the substance of the Body of Christ and of the whole substance of wine into the substance of his Blood. This change is brought about in the eucharistic prayer through the efficacy of the word of Christ and by the action of the Holy Spirit. However, the outward characteristics of bread and wine, that is the 'eucharistic species', remain unaltered."[1] In this teaching, the notions of "substance" and "transubstantiation" are not linked with any particular theory of metaphysics.

Transubstantiation - Wikipedia

The Bible Answer Man Finds the Eucharist
Hank Hanegraaff, the Bible Answer Man to millions of Protestant radio listeners, discusses his entry into the Orthodox Church, his veneration of Mary, and the fullness of life found in the Eucharist.

Oh, and why he still doesn’t believe in the Prosperity Gospel.
The Bible Answer Man Finds the Eucharist

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Thomas DID doubt

Good then, Thomas did doubt. To deny has been stupid of me, actually. As WillieT below says we all doubt.

Difference between the disciples though, was, Thomas knew he doubted and knew better than that, because he ADMITTED he did not know and AT THE SAME TIME CALLED OUT to Christ, HOW DO I GET TO KNOW AND STOP MY DOUBTING?

For this reason I stand with everything I said, especially that Thomas "saw" not physically, but spiritually, and that could only happen through the working of the Holy Spirit in his heart TO FIND THE CHRIST IN THE SCRIPTURES BECAUSE THEY TESTIFY OF HIM. And so Jesus' rebuke was actually by using Thomas as the example of true, self-doubting and self-renouncing FAITH for the other disciples who -- as we all know -- had seen Jesus but did not recognise him AND AFTER EIGHT DAYS STILL WERE HIDING FOR FEAR OF THE JEWS IN DISBELIEF.
Now go and read how come they did not believe but all the way were doubting as before, and you will read how everything recorded in the Gospels that they said, even after Jesus appeared to them the first time, are words and deeds and scenes RECORDED of self-pity, self justification and open and covert blaming of Jesus for letting them down as for their bad current situation.

So fact remains, Thomas did not partake in their miserableness, but as the record in the Acts states, as a TRUE Christian, for every of those eight days after and probably for the three days before as well, in the temple where the Scriptures were kept, would have been searching the Scriptures.

If there is one thing a Catholic hates, it is that a Christian should study the Scriptures.

 

[Illuminator]

You have put the Roman Catholic 'twist' - distortion, to Scripture. No Protestant would have expected less from any papa worshipper.

You make an assertion with no evidence, then you insult Catholics based on a blind zinger. That is not discussion, it's persecution.

 

[Illuminator]

We must come out of ourselves, we must take human routes if we are to discover that Jesus’ wounds are still visible today on the bodies of all our brothers and sisters who are hungry, thirsty, naked, humiliated or slaves, in prison and hospital. By touching and caressing these wounds “we can adore God alive in our midst”.

The Feast of St Thomas the Apostle enabled Pope Francis to return to a concept dear to him: placing our hands in the flesh of Jesus. Concelebrating with the Holy Father among others were Cardinal Jean-Louis Tauran, President of the Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue, who had accompanied staff of the dicastery.

Referring to the Readings (Eph 2:19-22; Ps 116[117] Jn 20:24-29), the Pope reflected on the disciples differing reactions “when Jesus made himself visible after the Resurrection”. Some rejoiced, others were filled with doubt. Thomas, to whom the Lord only showed himself eight days after he had shown himself to the others, was even incredulous. “The Lord”, the Pope said, “knows when and how to do things”. He granted Thomas eight days; and he wanted the wounds still to be visible on his body, although they were “clean, very beautiful, filled with light”, because the Apostle had said he would not believe unless he put his finger in them. “He was stubborn! But the Lord”, the Pope remarked, “wanted a pig-headed man in order to explain something greater. Thomas placed his fingers in the Lord’s wounds. But he did not say: “it’s true, the Lord is risen”. He went further; he said: “My Lord and my God”. Starting with his disbelief the Lord led him to profess not only his belief in the Resurrection, but above all, his belief in the divinity of the Lord.

“How can I find the wounds of Jesus today? I cannot see them as Thomas saw them. I find them in doing works of mercy, in giving to the body — to the body and to the soul, but I stress the body — of your injured brethren, for they are hungry, thirsty, naked, humiliated, slaves, in prison, in hospital. These are the wounds of Jesus in our day”.

Mere philanthropic actions do not suffice, the Pope added. “We must touch the wounds of Jesus, caress them. We must heal the wounds of Jesus with tenderness. We must literally kiss the wounds of Jesus”. The life of St Francis, he said, changed when he embraced the leper because “he touched the living God and lived in adoration”. “What Jesus asks us to do with our works of mercy”, the Pope concluded, “is what Thomas asked: to enter his wounds”.
Touching the wounds of Jesus (3 July 2013) | Francis

 

[charity]

After his resurrection Jesus appeared to the apostles. One of them wasn’t present.

Now Thomas, one of the twelve, called the Twin, was not with them when Jesus came.So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord.” But he said to them, “Unless I see in his hands the mark of the nails, and place my finger into the mark of the nails, and place my hand into his side, I will never believe.”
John 20:24,25 ESV​

Because of his unwillingness to believe Jesus had risen from the dead he is often called “doubting Thomas.”

Thomas wasn’t the only one to have doubts about Jesus. John the Baptist was imprisoned by Herod and he began to wonder if Jesus was really the Messiah.

Now when John heard in prison about the deeds of the Christ, he sent word by his disciples and said to him, “Are you the one who is to come, or shall we look for another?”
Matthew 11:2,3 ESV​

But I have never heard of John being called “doubting John.” Why do people respond so differently to Thomas and John?

Perhaps the reason is that when John is mentioned we think about his life before his imprisonment. The angel Gabriel foretold his birth. He was filled with the Holy Spirit while still in his mother’s womb. He preached a message of repentance and many believed him and were baptized. He even baptized Jesus. These events outweigh his moments of doubt while he was in prison.

Most people who have heard of Thomas know nothing about him but the fact that he doubted. The Bible doesn’t say much about him but there is one incident that I believe to be a better indicator of what he was like. John 11 tells of the death of Lazarus. Jesus and his disciples were in Galilee and Jesus decided they must return to Judea. Here was how most of the disciples reacted to this.

Then after this he said to the disciples, “Let us go to Judea again.”The disciples said to him, “Rabbi, the Jews were just now seeking to stone you, and are you going there again?”
John 11:7,8 ESV
​

Here is how Thomas reacted.

So Thomas, called the Twin, said to his fellow disciples, “Let us also go, that we may die with him.”
John 11:16 ESV
​

This is not the response of a doubter; instead it shows that Thomas loved Jesus and was even willing to sacrifice his life for him. Thomas never doubted before the crucifixion. The Bible says nothing about his life afterward but tradition tells us he carried the gospel to India and died there as a martyr. He demonstrated strong faith both before and after this incident but we have allowed his doubts to color our perception of him. Here is a summary of his life taken from the site What Christians Want To Know — Bible Verses, Quotes, Christian Answers, Songs and More .

Thomas got a bum rap. He was no more doubting than the rest of the disciples and the only reason he doubted and the others didn’t was because they had seen the resurrected Christ. When the women came back from the empty tomb and after seeing the risen Christ, the disciples also doubted. To me, there is no doubt that Thomas was a strong believer and a powerful missionary used by God to the glory of God.​

'And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of His disciples,
which are not written in this book: But these are written,
that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God;
and that believing ye might have life through His name.'
(John 20:30)

Hello there, @theophilus,

The record of the events surrounding Thomas and his words, were included for one purpose: as with all of the witness testimonies included in John's gospel; in order that those who hear might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing they might have life through His name. His words have echoed down through the ages, and thrilled the hearts of believers, and brought to faith the waverers, who hear and believe his report.

'And Thomas answered and said unto him, "My Lord and my God."'

Praise God!

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

The question remains: What in the world was Thomas doing when all the others were gathered together and he was absent? And why did he not believe their report, since there were far more than two or three witnesses?

<<What was Thomas doing when...?>> Question of the year!
<<Why did he not believe their report?>> Because he wanted MORE than <<two or three witnesses>> who saw Jesus resurrected / risen yet did not believe they saw the Messiah of the Scriptures!
Therefore, what was Thomas doing when all the others were under lock-down for fear of the believing-virus and he was absent?
Read my posts, would you, please? HE DID RESEARCH FOR THE ONLY REMEDY IN THE ONLY PLACE IT COULD BE FOUND, THE SCRIPTURES!

 

[BreadOfLife]

You have put the Roman Catholic 'twist' - distortion, to Scripture. No Protestant would have expected less from any papa worshipper.

Every reputable Protestant theologian would agree with me.
And every reputable Protestant Theologian I've ever heard on the subject disagrees with YOUR flawed assessment.

You are adding to Scripture what is not there - and therein lies your complete confusion . . .