Doubting Thomas

[Illuminator]

You being so plainly misinformed to so confidently tell the world to hear, <<The Bible tells us nothing about why Thomas wasn't with the other disciples when Jesus first appeared or what he was doing>>, the Bible on the contrary very explicitly tells us of those who like Thomas did, acknowledge they don't know and like Thomas did, ask how will we know and often heard Jesus say that such INQUISITIVE should study the Scriptures "BECAUSE THEY TESTIFY OF ME -JESUS THE MESSIAH LORD AND GOD of those who ask such questions and make such confession as made Thomas. The question I ask you, is, HOW CAN YOU NOT, SEE IT? Don't you find Christ in the Scriptures the WORD OF GOD?

TRANSLATION:
HOW CAN YOU NOT, SEE IT? Don't you find MY EGO in the Scriptures the WORD OF GOD?.
Yes, I can. It's as plain as day.

John 29:25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”

“How can I find the wounds of Jesus today? I cannot see them as Thomas saw them. I find them in doing works of mercy, in giving to the body — to the body and to the soul, but I stress the body — of your injured brethren, for they are hungry, thirsty, naked, humiliated, slaves, in prison, in hospital. These are the wounds of Jesus in our day”.

readers can check the full context here

GerhardEbersoehn accuses the Pope of blasphemy because he can't find the wounds of Jesus in our day, to him the Bible is past tense wherever it suits his ego... so he insults the Pope like a child having a temper tantrum.

The sufferings of Christ are mysteriously connected to the sufferings of all humanity (by His stripes we are healed) which is why the Resurrection is so great. It's basic Christianity 101. We should look for the face of Christ on the 2.5 million starving Yemenites, or the 10's of thousands of coronavirus victims smothering to death. These are also the wounds of Jesus in our day but GerhardEbersoehn calls such thinking blasphemous because he is too busy worshipping scriptures to see its deeper realities, and wouldn't know a blasphemy from a hole in the ground.

The Pope is making a commentary on John 29, it is not a comprehensive analysis. GerhardEbersoehn accuses the Pope of blasphemy because it is a man made tradition to do so. It's also childish and uncalled for.

 

[Enoch111]

would anybody including the apostle that were there the first time Jesus showed Himself in the room believe such a thing unless they saw it for themselves?

Absolutely. The OT prophecies proclaimed the resurrection of Christ, and Jesus Himself said that He would rise again on the third day. Not once but many times. That should have been enough. And today people who do not possess the Holy Spirit accept the fact that Jesus died and rose again. The whole world celebrates *Easter*, whether saved or not.

Now here's the thing. The angels which were sent to Christ's tomb declared that He was risen. Even that should have sufficed. But no. Even the declaration of the angels was rejected. No one wanted to believe that Jesus was very much alive after His crucifixion.

 

[Joseph77]

Absolutely. The OT prophecies proclaimed the resurrection of Christ, and Jesus Himself said that He would rise again on the third day. Not once but many times. That should have been enough.

Hardly.

NO ONE expected the Creator to send Jesus. Not even one person.
Not even those who were expecting the Messiah.

For the suffering servant, God's Own Son, echad with the Father eternally,
to be born a man, in this evil and wicked generation,
to be the PERFECT sacrifice required !

 

[Enoch111]

NO ONE expected the Creator to send Jesus.

Not so.

WISE MEN FROM THE EAST
Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem, Saying, Where is he [Jesus] that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him. (Mt 2:1,2)

ELIZABETH
And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord [Jesus] should come to me? (Lk 1:43)

ZACHARIAS
And hath raised up an Horn of Salvation [Jesus] for us in the house of his servant David... And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord [Jesus] to prepare his ways; (Lk 1:69,76)

SIMEON
And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the Consolation of Israel [Jesus]: and the Holy Ghost was upon him. And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ. [Jesus] (Lk 2:25,26)

ANNA
And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him [Jesus] to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem. (Lk 2:38)

 

[Joseph77]

WONDERFUL ! (though different meaning/ perspective; I am delighted with all this Scripture)

Now, to clarify, did anyone expect the CREATOR of all heaven and earth, echad, Almighty,
without beginning and without end, who fills the universe and more,

to send HIS SON as the Messiah - who also is all the fullness of the Almighty, echad with the Creator always eternally ?

Could anyone ever have thought this ? (not just that He Promised a Messiah,

but so impossibly, that He would send His Only Begotten Son, to be so unbelievably

lowered ? to become born a man !?

QUOTE="Enoch111, post: 726159, member: 7853"]Not so.

WISE MEN FROM THE EAST
Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem, Saying, Where is he [Jesus] that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him. (Mt 2:1,2)

ELIZABETH
And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord [Jesus] should come to me? (Lk 1:43)

ZACHARIAS
And hath raised up an Horn of Salvation [Jesus] for us in the house of his servant David... And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord [Jesus] to prepare his ways; (Lk 1:69,76)

SIMEON
And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the Consolation of Israel [Jesus]: and the Holy Ghost was upon him. And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ. [Jesus] (Lk 2:25,26)

ANNA
And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him [Jesus] to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem. (Lk 2:38)[/QUOTE

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

This is absolutely false.

Jesus rebukes Thomas for his unbelief and that he had to be SHOWN the wounds of Christ in order to believe.
He then makes a comparison by blessing those who believe WITHOUT having to see him.

THIS is <absolutely false>, you writing, <<believe without having to see him>>. But what would one expect...

The other disciples had seen Jesus nevertheless believed not and their CONFESSION or lack of confession proves it. It took an ENQUIRING RESTLESS DISSATISFIED WITH HIMSELF HERO like Thomas to confess the Crucified Jesus and WORSHIP HIM in the face of the unbelievers as his LORD AND GOD -- LIKE OF OLD TRUE BELIEVERS WORSHIPPED HIM : "the LORD OUR GOD". The lot were Jews-phobic Jews; Thomas תואם was the only TRUE son of Israel 'ruling with God' OVER HIS OWN UNBELIEF. "Lord help my unbelief!" Thomas had to see Jesus IN SCRIPTURE the Lord and God the Saviour of his People; the others were LAODECEANS beaten in their self-righteousness only by the then still future Roman Catholics.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

TRANSLATION:
HOW CAN YOU NOT, SEE IT? Don't you find MY EGO in the Scriptures the WORD OF GOD?.
Yes, I can. It's as plain as day.

John 29:25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”

“How can I find the wounds of Jesus today? I cannot see them as Thomas saw them. I find them in doing works of mercy, in giving to the body — to the body and to the soul, but I stress the body — of your injured brethren, for they are hungry, thirsty, naked, humiliated, slaves, in prison, in hospital. These are the wounds of Jesus in our day”.

readers can check the full context here

GerhardEbersoehn accuses the Pope of blasphemy because he can't find the wounds of Jesus in our day, to him the Bible is past tense wherever it suits his ego... so he insults the Pope like a child having a temper tantrum.

The sufferings of Christ are mysteriously connected to the sufferings of all humanity (by His stripes we are healed) which is why the Resurrection is so great. It's basic Christianity 101. We should look for the face of Christ on the 2.5 million starving Yemenites, or the 10's of thousands of coronavirus victims smothering to death. These are also the wounds of Jesus in our day but GerhardEbersoehn calls such thinking blasphemous because he is too busy worshipping scriptures to see its deeper realities, and wouldn't know a blasphemy from a hole in the ground.

The Pope is making a commentary on John 29, it is not a comprehensive analysis. GerhardEbersoehn accuses the Pope of blasphemy because it is a man made tradition to do so. It's also childish and uncalled for.

Continued RC EGO worship, rather, in fact, idolatry.

 

[FHII]

Although I don't fully agree with your assessment - I kinda get your point.

However - I DO have an issue with your claim in RED because I don't see anything in Scripture OR Tradition that indicates Mary as ever "doubting" her Son. Can you point me to the verse?

My bad... Mary the mother of Jesus isn't apart of the events from the day of the crucifixion to the end of the Gospels (as far as I can see, and isn't mentioned again until Acts 1:4).

The last we see if her was when Jesus left her in the care of "the disciples Jesus loved" and she was in his home (John 19:27. I believe that disciple was John, but we really don't know for sure).

I was looking at this from what is NOT mentioned in the scripture: Jesus told his disciples he would be raised on the third day. Yet it seems no one went to the tomb to look for the risen Jesus. The women who did go went to anoint his body. Some were upset thinking his body was taken (as in stolen). We see nothing of any Apostles, disciples or anyone looking for Jesus as alive.

This is my overall point. Overall, Thomas is a hero (as he died a faithful Apostle, and a martyr no less if you believe the extra-biblical accounts), but not in this incident. I also don't believe him to be a villain either as none of the others believed he would rise before he did.

Back to Mary... No I don't have a scripture that says she doubted he would rise. But there is none that say she did believe. There is no verse that says anyone in his circle believed. If you believe otherwise you will have to explain to me why no one is mentioned of going to the tomb expecting such.

Let's not turn this into an argument about how great Mary is or isn't. I admit there is no verse that says she doubted he would raise, but there is none that says she didn't doubt.

 

[Enoch111]

Yet it seems no one went to the tomb to look for the risen Jesus.

Well that would mean that they did not believe. The empty tomb meant that Jesus was elsewhere, so why go there?

Had the apostles informed the women that there was NO NEED to go to the tomb with embalming spices -- since Christ would be meeting them shortly while they were all gathered in one place -- that would have meant that they believed unquestioningly.

Had they taken that one step further and prayed "Lord, we are waiting for you here" that would have been perfect, since Christ would have appeared immediately.

 

[Enoch111]

Back to Mary... No I don't have a scripture that says she doubted he would rise.

The fact that she accompanied the women expecting to prepare Christ properly for His burial meant that she too never expected the resurrection.

 

[DPMartin]

Absolutely. The OT prophecies proclaimed the resurrection of Christ, and Jesus Himself said that He would rise again on the third day. Not once but many times. That should have been enough. And today people who do not possess the Holy Spirit accept the fact that Jesus died and rose again. The whole world celebrates *Easter*, whether saved or not.

Now here's the thing. The angels which were sent to Christ's tomb declared that He was risen. Even that should have sufficed. But no. Even the declaration of the angels was rejected. No one wanted to believe that Jesus was very much alive after His crucifixion.

the scripters only include the Marys, Peter and John at the tome.

and who are you to judge what is sufficient? seeing that God did given the Holy Spirit to keep those that are His, then why would He, if claims were sufficient to sustain the faithful. its God's continual presence that is required. as soon as Jesus was some where else the faithful waned. as soon as Jesus was arrested they scurried and scattered.

which is human nature, and why the authorities sot to eliminate Jesus, because if you take out their leader, the movement losses momentum, in their view. but its the Holy Spirit that kept the believer because, its the Presence of God or "indwelling" that keeps one faithful. if He's with you He keeps you, if He's not, good luck with that.

again the idea that Thomas is a sinner or less of an apostle is ludicrous, because it teaches an expectation of human nature that really isn't there, is not true, has no validity. but it does coddle the unrealistic belief that there is goodness in man and Thomas was at fault. Jesus didn't give Thomas any grief over it why do you people do? Jesus showed him that he may believe just as He did the first time He appeared to them. I have noticed that on many occasions in the bible the Christian (self proclaimed christian) loves to find fault in the people God has chosen.


even Paul teaches:
1Co_2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

 

[FHII]

The fact that she accompanied the women expecting to prepare Christ properly for His burial meant that she too never expected the resurrection.

There isn't a scripture that says Mary the mother went there. A "Mary the mother of James and Joses" went, and that might have been her, as the Bible says Jesus had brothers by that name. I believe it to be so, but I must stop short of saying it is a fact.

 

[FHII]

Well that would mean that they did not believe. The empty tomb meant that Jesus was elsewhere, so why go there?

That is my point exactly! Why go there? Well, not with the spices, but because Jesus said he would rise. Wouldn't you have gone?

Had the apostles informed the women that there was NO NEED to go to the tomb with embalming spices -- since Christ would be meeting them shortly while they were all gathered in one place -- that would have meant that they believed unquestioningly.

Had they taken that one step further and prayed "Lord, we are waiting for you here" that would have been perfect, since Christ would have appeared immediately.

Well Jesus didn't give them instructions on what to do or where to wait (as far as I know). Otherwise, they may have.

 

[FHII]

again the idea that Thomas is a sinner or less of an apostle is ludicrous, because it teaches an expectation of human nature that really isn't there, is not true, has no validity. but it does coddle the unrealistic belief that there is goodness in man and Thomas was at fault.

Right! Well, he was, but not anymore than the others. After all... No one uses the term, "Denying Peter", do they?

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Now here's the thing. The angels which were sent to Christ's tomb declared that He was risen. Even that should have sufficed. But no. Even the declaration of the angels was rejected. No one wanted to believe that Jesus was very much alive after His crucifixion.

True, and telling! Jesus WARNED, "You search the Scriptures (for the sake of searching the Scriptures), but they witness of ME!" No disciple except Thomas, believed the Scriptures! He not only believed, but confessed and worshipped not simply by adoring the son of Mary for the feat Lazarus was by now renowned for. 1) "God according to the SCRIPTURES", 2) "RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD", 3) with the "signs" in his hands and side which "God in times past through the prophets had spoken" of. 4) And so God raised Him, confessed Thomas, "MY LORD AND MY GOD!"

Why did the other disciples not believe or confess like Thomas did? Because they never like Thomas did, admitted they know not, or like Thomas did, prayed how to know and understand. And the Holy Spirit would be quick to open to Thomas, Jesus' word to all, in order to find Him, to read the Scriptures.

 

[BreadOfLife]

My bad... Mary the mother of Jesus isn't apart of the events from the day of the crucifixion to the end of the Gospels (as far as I can see, and isn't mentioned again until Acts 1:4).

The last we see if her was when Jesus left her in the care of "the disciples Jesus loved" and she was in his home (John 19:27. I believe that disciple was John, but we really don't know for sure).

I was looking at this from what is NOT mentioned in the scripture: Jesus told his disciples he would be raised on the third day. Yet it seems no one went to the tomb to look for the risen Jesus. The women who did go went to anoint his body. Some were upset thinking his body was taken (as in stolen). We see nothing of any Apostles, disciples or anyone looking for Jesus as alive.

This is my overall point. Overall, Thomas is a hero (as he died a faithful Apostle, and a martyr no less if you believe the extra-biblical accounts), but not in this incident. I also don't believe him to be a villain either as none of the others believed he would rise before he did.

Back to Mary... No I don't have a scripture that says she doubted he would rise. But there is none that say she did believe. There is no verse that says anyone in his circle believed. If you believe otherwise you will have to explain to me why no one is mentioned of going to the tomb expecting such.

Let's not turn this into an argument about how great Mary is or isn't. I admit there is no verse that says she doubted he would raise, but there is none that says she didn't doubt.

As for Thomas - I agree that he was a hero of the faith - eventually - but NOT in this case.

As you stated, he was martyred like the others which makes him faithful to the end. However, as I explained in my last post - Jesus rebuked Thomas for not having the faith to believe as those who DO believe without seeing. He represents ALL of us in our moments of doubt.

As for Mary - your last statement is an attempt at forcing Catholics to prove a negative. Just because Scripture is silent about Mary not having doubted the Resurrection is NOT a case for the idea that she DID doubt.
Scripture is silent on Jesus having stood on His head at the Last Supper - but that doesn't lend credence to the idea that He DID stand on His head.

Mary knew who Jesus was before He was born because she was told by the angel. I don't think she had ANY doubts about His divinity or His abilities.
Her instructions to the servants at the Wedding at Cana is proof of this.

 

[BreadOfLife]

THIS is <absolutely false>, you writing, <<believe without having to see him>>. But what would one expect...

The other disciples had seen Jesus nevertheless believed not and their CONFESSION or lack of confession proves it. It took an ENQUIRING RESTLESS DISSATISFIED WITH HIMSELF HERO like Thomas to confess the Crucified Jesus and WORSHIP HIM in the face of the unbelievers as his LORD AND GOD -- LIKE OF OLD TRUE BELIEVERS WORSHIPPED HIM : "the LORD OUR GOD". The lot were Jews-phobic Jews; Thomas תואם was the only TRUE son of Israel 'ruling with God' OVER HIS OWN UNBELIEF. "Lord help my unbelief!" Thomas had to see Jesus IN SCRIPTURE the Lord and God the Saviour of his People; the others were LAODECEANS beaten in their self-righteousness only by the then still future Roman Catholics.

Once again - NONE of them believed until they saw Jesus risen.

Thomas, however, raised the ante when he made his statement that he wouldn't believe until he actually placed his fingers in the nail holes and hand in His side. NONE of the others were this obstinate - and that's why they weren't rebuked by Jesus when He appeared to them.

What Thomas did was a BAD thing - not "heroic".
Just as Peter did a BAD thing by doubting Christ 3 times and was redeemed by telling Christ 3 times that he loved Him - Thomas also did a BAD thing by refusing to believe, but was redeemed by his eventual statement of faith.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

the scripters only include the Marys, Peter and John at the tome.

Visits at the tomb “on the First Day”


1) “Mary sees the stone removed”, “while being early darkness still”, dusk. Then Peter and John go to the tomb to see what Mary has told them. (Jn20:1-10)


2) “Earliest morning- darkness”, just after midnight, “the two women” (variant – the two Marys), “and certain others with them”, for the first time, “came to the sepulchre, bringing the spices they had prepared”. (Lk24:1) “They returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things to the eleven and to all the rest.” (“Then Peter stood up and ran to the tomb; and bending low over, he saw the linen clothes. He went back, wandering by himself about that what had happened.” (Lk24:9-12) Cf. John's account in 20:1-10. Luke talks of another visit by Peter, because for one thing, he doesn't mention John.)


3) These women to make sure, a second time came to the tomb “very early before sunrise”. (Mk16:2)


4) Mary from after the others had fled in fear (Mk16:8) “had had stood after without at the grave” (Jn20:11). At the time a gardener should begin work, about sunrise, Jesus “early … first appeared to Mary”. (Mk16:9)


5) Soon after – after they a third time have visited the tomb and “the angel explained” to them what had happened during the Resurrection – Jesus appears to the other women “as they went to tell his disciples”. (Mt28:5, 9)


Mary went to the tomb, three times, Jn20:1, Lk24:1, Mk16:2, and Mk16:9 when she “had remained standing behind” until, Jn20:11, Jesus appeared to her, “first”, Mk16:9, and alone, “at the grave”, Jn20:16.

The other women also went to the tomb, three times, Lk24:1, Mk16:2, and Mt28:5 when “the angel explained” to them what had happened during the Resurrection, and Jesus, as “they went to tell his disciples”, appeared to them. (Mt28:5, 9)

The answer to the ‘Easter enigma’ is simple: Each Gospel contributed to the whole with one of several sources; each added a personal part that, put together, will bring the whole story of the Resurrection into proper perspective.

 

[Joseph77]

If God Permits and Grants From Heaven .....

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

As for Thomas - I agree that he was a hero of the faith - eventually - but NOT in this case.

Thomas was a 'hero' from day one he was a disciple. He was the only disciple ever who said "I do not know"; he was the only one ever who cried out to Jesus, "HOW can I know?"; he was the disciple who despite the others' scepticism CONFESSED Jesus as his, Lord and God; and he was the only disciple who the first time he encountered the RISEN JESUS WORSHIPPED HIM WHOLEHEARTEDLY. But everyone says Thomas doubted?! Because the pope celebrates Thomas doubts! my o my...