Doubting Thomas

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BreadOfLife

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@BreadOfLife, would you like to enlighten us as to why 1.3 Billion people believe that prayer from a Sinful and Fallen Roman Catholic Priest transforms bread and wine into the actual Body and Blood of Messiah/Christ? And, if it were true that this transformation takes place, why do your members Sin habitually and/or cannot stop Sinning? Why are your members not a Doubting Thomas?


Transubstantiation
Transubstantiation (Latin: transsubstantiatio; Greek: μετουσίωσις metousiosis) is, according to the teaching of the Catholic Church, "the change of the whole substance of bread into the substance of the Body of Christ and of the whole substance of wine into the substance of his Blood. This change is brought about in the eucharistic prayer through the efficacy of the word of Christ and by the action of the Holy Spirit. However, the outward characteristics of bread and wine, that is the 'eucharistic species', remain unaltered."[1] In this teaching, the notions of "substance" and "transubstantiation" are not linked with any particular theory of metaphysics.

Transubstantiation - Wikipedia
Once again - your are trying to hijack this thread.
If you want to start a thread about your anti-Catholic hatred - then create a thread and I'll destroy your arguments there.

THIS
thread is about Thomas and his doubting of Christ.
 
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DPMartin

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After his resurrection Jesus appeared to the apostles. One of them wasn’t present.

Now Thomas, one of the twelve, called the Twin, was not with them when Jesus came.So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord.” But he said to them, “Unless I see in his hands the mark of the nails, and place my finger into the mark of the nails, and place my hand into his side, I will never believe.”
John 20:24,25 ESV​

Because of his unwillingness to believe Jesus had risen from the dead he is often called “doubting Thomas.”

Thomas wasn’t the only one to have doubts about Jesus. John the Baptist was imprisoned by Herod and he began to wonder if Jesus was really the Messiah.

Now when John heard in prison about the deeds of the Christ, he sent word by his disciples and said to him, “Are you the one who is to come, or shall we look for another?”
Matthew 11:2,3 ESV​

But I have never heard of John being called “doubting John.” Why do people respond so differently to Thomas and John?

Perhaps the reason is that when John is mentioned we think about his life before his imprisonment. The angel Gabriel foretold his birth. He was filled with the Holy Spirit while still in his mother’s womb. He preached a message of repentance and many believed him and were baptized. He even baptized Jesus. These events outweigh his moments of doubt while he was in prison.

Most people who have heard of Thomas know nothing about him but the fact that he doubted. The Bible doesn’t say much about him but there is one incident that I believe to be a better indicator of what he was like. John 11 tells of the death of Lazarus. Jesus and his disciples were in Galilee and Jesus decided they must return to Judea. Here was how most of the disciples reacted to this.

Then after this he said to the disciples, “Let us go to Judea again.”The disciples said to him, “Rabbi, the Jews were just now seeking to stone you, and are you going there again?”
John 11:7,8 ESV
Here is how Thomas reacted.

So Thomas, called the Twin, said to his fellow disciples, “Let us also go, that we may die with him.”
John 11:16 ESV
This is not the response of a doubter; instead it shows that Thomas loved Jesus and was even willing to sacrifice his life for him. Thomas never doubted before the crucifixion. The Bible says nothing about his life afterward but tradition tells us he carried the gospel to India and died there as a martyr. He demonstrated strong faith both before and after this incident but we have allowed his doubts to color our perception of him. Here is a summary of his life taken from the site What Christians Want To Know — Bible Verses, Quotes, Christian Answers, Songs and More .

Thomas got a bum rap. He was no more doubting than the rest of the disciples and the only reason he doubted and the others didn’t was because they had seen the resurrected Christ. When the women came back from the empty tomb and after seeing the risen Christ, the disciples also doubted. To me, there is no doubt that Thomas was a strong believer and a powerful missionary used by God to the glory of God.

would anybody including the apostle that were there the first time Jesus showed Himself in the room believe such a thing unless they saw it for themselves? we wouldn't hold to this fact of Christ's resurrection if it weren't for the Holy Spirit. without the revelation one doesn't know. and at that time they (the apostles were yet to be baptized in the Holy Spirit) so what was anybody to believe without the revelation? and the preaching by the apostles as a ministry with the knowledge of resurrection really didn't start until Pentecost in which the Spirit from then on moved according to God's will and the revelation is in Truth and Spirit, in which the worshiping of God is to be..
 
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GerhardEbersoehn

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'And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written,
that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God;
and that believing ye might have life through His name.'

(John 20:30)

The record of the events surrounding Thomas and his words, were included for one purpose: as with all of the witness testimonies included in John's gospel; in order that those who hear might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing they might have life through His name. His words have echoed down through the ages, and thrilled the hearts of believers, and brought to faith the waverers, who hear and believe his report.

'And Thomas answered and said unto him, "My Lord and my God."'

So there are "signs not written in this book" but written in 'those books' the OT Holy Scriptures: "But these (signs written about here in John 20), are written that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God and that believing (these signs written here in this Gospel of John in this place), ye might have life through His name."

Now which signs are "these signs written" here in John 20? They are the signs written in 'those books' of the OT Holy Scriptures, "signs" which Jesus did not "do" but had, and was marked or signified by and with--, the two signs by which and with which He is SHOWN IN ALL THE SCRIPTURES to be Lord and God-- the "folds through his hands" Jesus had, and the "place" in his side Jesus showed Thomas to put his hands into.

Thomas DID NOT do what Jesus invited him to do. I believe he did not even look! Because Thomas FOUND OUT -- THAT'S HOW THOMAS KNEW -- he found the Resurrected Jesus IS the Christ Lord and God OF SCRIPTURE .. AND BELIEVED.
 

GerhardEbersoehn

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would anybody including the apostle that were there the first time Jesus showed Himself in the room believe such a thing unless they saw it for themselves? we wouldn't hold to this fact of Christ's resurrection if it weren't for the Holy Spirit. without the revelation one doesn't know. and at that time they (the apostles were yet to be baptized in the Holy Spirit) so what was anybody to believe without the revelation? and the preaching by the apostles as a ministry with the knowledge of resurrection really didn't start until Pentecost in which the Spirit from then on moved according to God's will and the revelation is in Truth and Spirit, in which the worshiping of God is to be..

Yes, unless revealed by the Holy Spirit it was impossible for the disciples to believe or confess the Risen Jesus was Christ the Lord and God. But the Holy Spirit every moment was there IN THE SCRIPTURES revealing and explaining and applying all Truth about Jesus Christ. You are speaking of the Spirit of the Living God actively persuading and winning over the ignorant and questioning Thomas nowhere and no how else than in the Scriptures--the SCRIPTURES, BREATHED BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD AND EXPLAINED AND BELIEVED BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD!

Again it explains very plainly the question, Where was Thomas? What was he doing while the other disciples exercised self-isolation? He did Biblestudy!
 

GerhardEbersoehn

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The Feast of St Thomas the Apostle enabled Pope Francis to return to a concept dear to him: placing our hands in the flesh of Jesus. Concelebrating with the Holy Father among others were Cardinal Jean-Louis Tauran, President of the Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue, who had accompanied staff of the dicastery.

Horrible abomination of desolation

Roman Catholics try to see how far they can go with taunting God.
 
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Marymog

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@BreadOfLife, would you like to enlighten us as to why 1.3 Billion people believe that prayer from a Sinful and Fallen Roman Catholic Priest transforms bread and wine into the actual Body and Blood of Messiah/Christ? And, if it were true that this transformation takes place, why do your members Sin habitually and/or cannot stop Sinning? Why are your members not a Doubting Thomas?


Transubstantiation

Transubstantiation (Latin: transsubstantiatio; Greek: μετουσίωσις metousiosis) is, according to the teaching of the Catholic Church, "the change of the whole substance of bread into the substance of the Body of Christ and of the whole substance of wine into the substance of his Blood. This change is brought about in the eucharistic prayer through the efficacy of the word of Christ and by the action of the Holy Spirit. However, the outward characteristics of bread and wine, that is the 'eucharistic species', remain unaltered."[1] In this teaching, the notions of "substance" and "transubstantiation" are not linked with any particular theory of metaphysics.

Transubstantiation - Wikipedia
What on Gods green earth does this have to do with doubting Thomas? :cool:
 

Elihoenai

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The Bible Answer Man Finds the Eucharist
Hank Hanegraaff, the Bible Answer Man to millions of Protestant radio listeners, discusses his entry into the Orthodox Church, his veneration of Mary, and the fullness of life found in the Eucharist.

Oh, and why he still doesn’t believe in the Prosperity Gospel.

The Bible Answer Man Finds the Eucharist

2 Timothy 3:5-6 King James Version (KJV)

5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,


What you posted above is not an answer to the powerful and profound questions that I asked. Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and Protestants are all experiencing the same thing, that is, Sinning habitually and/or cannot stop Sinning. The Great Lie that the Body and Blood of Yeshua Messiah/Jesus Christ is Powerless, is the Mother of All lies that has been constructed and maintained by Satan/Devil for over 2000 years.

Yet, Elohim/God is in complete control, because he gave Fake Popular Christianity for the Billions who refuse the real thing.
 

Illuminator

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2 Timothy 3:5-6 King James Version (KJV)

5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,


What you posted above is not an answer to the powerful and profound questions that I asked. Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and Protestants are all experiencing the same thing, that is, Sinning habitually and/or cannot stop Sinning. The Great Lie that the Body and Blood of Yeshua Messiah/Jesus Christ is Powerless, is the Mother of All lies that has been constructed and maintained by Satan/Devil for over 2000 years.

Yet, Elohim/God is in complete control, because he gave Fake Popular Christianity for the Billions who refuse the real thing.
Do you claim to have special knowledge of who sins and who doesn't?
Do you claim that you are perfect, holy, and never sin?
BofL is correct, you are trying to highjack this thread into another Catholic bash fest, and I suspect most decent Christians are sick of it.
 
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BreadOfLife

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Jesus went to raise Lazarus; Thomas wanted to go to die with him. Admirable, but he wasn't listening to Jesus. He was listening to his fellow disciples' fear. Jesus kind of shrugged off the threats and went anyway.

This is actually more doubting. It's admirable, but so out of tune with what Jesus was saying.

Thomas did doubt. But as Enoch111 did a great job of explaining, they all did. And except for Judas, Peter committed the worst act of doubt of all of them.

One small detail people miss about Thomas is in John 20. Thomas declares to the others he won't believe it until he sees and puts his finger in the nail Prints and put his hand into his side. Jesus appears and tells him to do so, that he might believe. But Thomas DIDN'T. He saw and that was enough. He didn't have to actually touch the wounds as he said.

Jesus said, you have seen me and believed. Blessed are they that don't see me and believe (today, that's us!).

Yes, Thomas doubted. So did all the disciples. So did the women, yes... Even mom! None of the Apostles were flawless; they all had some pretty bad character traits of varying degrees. That's what makes them perfect Apostles, in a sense:imperfect men doing a perfect God's work.

In the end, they all believed. And though Thomas doubted, he just needed to see him and not touch him. He then believed and had faith. He then went on to be one of the 12 who turned the world upside down and after 2000 years, we are still talking about him.

Yes, he doubted, but he got over it and is a true hero of the Bible.
Although I don't fully agree with your assessment - I kinda get your point.

However - I DO have an issue with your claim in RED because I don't see anything in Scripture OR Tradition that indicates Mary as ever "doubting" her Son. Can you point me to the verse?
 

DPMartin

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Yes, unless revealed by the Holy Spirit it was impossible for the disciples to believe or confess the Risen Jesus was Christ the Lord and God. But the Holy Spirit every moment was there IN THE SCRIPTURES revealing and explaining and applying all Truth about Jesus Christ. You are speaking of the Spirit of the Living God actively persuading and winning over the ignorant and questioning Thomas nowhere and no how else than in the Scriptures--the SCRIPTURES, BREATHED BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD AND EXPLAINED AND BELIEVED BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD!

Again it explains very plainly the question, Where was Thomas? What was he doing while the other disciples exercised self-isolation? He did Biblestudy!

no. we have never seen the risen Christ but we know it to be true. how? because of the Truth and the Holy Spirit but they at the time were not experiencing being born of the Holy Spirit. they physically witnessed the risen Christ. no spirituality required. therefore Thomas had no reason to believe unless he witnessed it for himself. if Thomas was born again he wouldn't have the need to physically witness the risen Christ to know its true.

one must experience the revelation to know, otherwise he would have to take his fellow's word for it but yet he still wouldn't know. if I recollect correctly. Jesus pointed out the fact that so many will believe yet have not seen for themselves. hence there is a reason for that isn't there?
 

GerhardEbersoehn

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no. we have never seen the risen Christ but we know it to be true. how? because of the Truth and the Holy Spirit but they at the time were not experiencing being born of the Holy Spirit. they physically witnessed the risen Christ. no spirituality required. therefore Thomas had no reason to believe unless he witnessed it for himself. if Thomas was born again he wouldn't have the need to physically witness the risen Christ to know its true.

one must experience the revelation to know, otherwise he would have to take his fellow's word for it but yet he still wouldn't know. if I recollect correctly. Jesus pointed out the fact that so many will believe yet have not seen for themselves. hence there is a reason for that isn't there?

SURE! <<they physically witnessed the risen ... no spirituality required>> They witnessed the risen Jesus they knew <physically> but not spiritually as, or, for, 1) the Christ 2) the Lord 3) or GOD -- AND THEY NEVER COULD UNLESS TAUGHT THIS, AND LET WITNESS, BY THE HOLY SPIRIT.


So how did Thomas in fact learn this and came to believe and CONFESS THIS, OTHER THAN IN AND BY THAT WHICH, THEN, "TESTIF(IED) OF ME" Jesus 1) the Christ 2) the Lord 3) and GOD? FROM AND IN AND BY TWO THINGS: THE HOLY SPIRIT IN THE SCRIPTURES AND THE SCRIPTURES THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT!
 
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theophilus

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Again it explains very plainly the question, Where was Thomas? What was he doing while the other disciples exercised self-isolation? He did Biblestudy!

How do you know this? The Bible tells us nothing about why Thomas wasn't with the other disciples when Jesus first appeared or what he was doing. If the Bible doesn't speak of it we shouldn't either.
 

bbyrd009

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After his resurrection Jesus appeared to the apostles. One of them wasn’t present.

Now Thomas, one of the twelve, called the Twin, was not with them when Jesus came.So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord.” But he said to them, “Unless I see in his hands the mark of the nails, and place my finger into the mark of the nails, and place my hand into his side, I will never believe.”
John 20:24,25 ESV​

Because of his unwillingness to believe Jesus had risen from the dead he is often called “doubting Thomas.”

Thomas wasn’t the only one to have doubts about Jesus. John the Baptist was imprisoned by Herod and he began to wonder if Jesus was really the Messiah.

Now when John heard in prison about the deeds of the Christ, he sent word by his disciples and said to him, “Are you the one who is to come, or shall we look for another?”
Matthew 11:2,3 ESV​

But I have never heard of John being called “doubting John.” Why do people respond so differently to Thomas and John?

Perhaps the reason is that when John is mentioned we think about his life before his imprisonment. The angel Gabriel foretold his birth. He was filled with the Holy Spirit while still in his mother’s womb. He preached a message of repentance and many believed him and were baptized. He even baptized Jesus. These events outweigh his moments of doubt while he was in prison.

Most people who have heard of Thomas know nothing about him but the fact that he doubted. The Bible doesn’t say much about him but there is one incident that I believe to be a better indicator of what he was like. John 11 tells of the death of Lazarus. Jesus and his disciples were in Galilee and Jesus decided they must return to Judea. Here was how most of the disciples reacted to this.

Then after this he said to the disciples, “Let us go to Judea again.”The disciples said to him, “Rabbi, the Jews were just now seeking to stone you, and are you going there again?”
John 11:7,8 ESV
Here is how Thomas reacted.

So Thomas, called the Twin, said to his fellow disciples, “Let us also go, that we may die with him.”
John 11:16 ESV
This is not the response of a doubter; instead it shows that Thomas loved Jesus and was even willing to sacrifice his life for him. Thomas never doubted before the crucifixion. The Bible says nothing about his life afterward but tradition tells us he carried the gospel to India and died there as a martyr. He demonstrated strong faith both before and after this incident but we have allowed his doubts to color our perception of him. Here is a summary of his life taken from the site What Christians Want To Know — Bible Verses, Quotes, Christian Answers, Songs and More .

Thomas got a bum rap. He was no more doubting than the rest of the disciples and the only reason he doubted and the others didn’t was because they had seen the resurrected Christ. When the women came back from the empty tomb and after seeing the risen Christ, the disciples also doubted. To me, there is no doubt that Thomas was a strong believer and a powerful missionary used by God to the glory of God.
nice, i have a thing somewhere that outlines how Thomas was actually following some of Jesus' explicit instructions, ill see if i can dig it up...ah,

"
His first recorded words are: "Let us also go, that we may die with Him" (JOHN 11:16), but because of his dubiosity about his colleagues' enthusiasm concerning the resurrected Christ, tradition has dubbed him Doubting Thomas. What tradition was slow to pick up on is that Thomas was under standing orders by Christ to not believe when people reported a Messiah sighting (MATTHEW 24:23-26).

When Jesus shows himself to Thomas too, he doesn't in any way rebuke him but calls him blessed for having seen him (JOHN 20:29). Jesus also calls blessed those who somehow believe in him through a process that involves experiencing him but not seeing him. It has nothing to do with believing enthusiastic folks who spread rumors..." The amazing name Thomas: meaning and etymology , "The name Thomas in the Bible"
 

GerhardEbersoehn

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no. we have never seen the risen Christ but we know it to be true. how? because of the Truth and the Holy Spirit but they at the time were not experiencing being born of the Holy Spirit. they physically witnessed the risen Christ. no spirituality required. therefore Thomas had no reason to believe unless he witnessed it for himself. if Thomas was born again he wouldn't have the need to physically witness the risen Christ to know its true.

one must experience the revelation to know, otherwise he would have to take his fellow's word for it but yet he still wouldn't know. if I recollect correctly. Jesus pointed out the fact that so many will believe yet have not seen for themselves. hence there is a reason for that isn't there?

DO YOU SAY SCRIPTURE IS DISPENSABLE? Yes, you do!

I rest my case; believe what you will. Thank God your witness is powerless and lack the Spirit of the Almighty WHOSE CHOICE EXCLUSIVELY HAS BEEN TO BREATH HIS HOLY SPIRIT IN THE HOLY SCRIPTURES HIS WRITTEN WORD and not in the deluded <experience> of men -- exactly what is at issue in this discussion about Thomas the disciple - student and follower - of the Saviour in the SCRIPTURES.
 

GerhardEbersoehn

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When Jesus shows himself to Thomas too, he doesn't in any way rebuke him but calls him blessed for having seen him (JOHN 20:29). Jesus also calls blessed those who somehow believe in him through a process that involves experiencing him but not seeing him. It has nothing to do with believing enthusiastic folks who spread rumors..."

GOOD! Just the opposite of BOL.
 
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GerhardEbersoehn

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How do you know this? The Bible tells us nothing about why Thomas wasn't with the other disciples when Jesus first appeared or what he was doing. If the Bible doesn't speak of it we shouldn't either.

You being so plainly misinformed to so confidently tell the world to hear, <<The Bible tells us nothing about why Thomas wasn't with the other disciples when Jesus first appeared or what he was doing>>, the Bible on the contrary very explicitly tells us of those who like Thomas did, acknowledge they don't know and like Thomas did, ask how will we know and often heard Jesus say that such ENQUIRERS should study the Scriptures "BECAUSE THEY TESTIFY OF ME -JESUS THE MESSIAH LORD AND GOD of those who ask such questions and make such confession as made Thomas. The question I ask you, is, HOW CAN YOU NOT, SEE IT? Don't you find Christ in the Scriptures the WORD OF GOD?
 
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BreadOfLife

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When Jesus shows himself to Thomas too, he doesn't in any way rebuke him but calls him blessed for having seen him (JOHN 20:29). Jesus also calls blessed those who somehow believe in him through a process that involves experiencing him but not seeing him. It has nothing to do with believing enthusiastic folks who spread rumors..." The amazing name Thomas: meaning and etymology , "The name Thomas in the Bible"
GOOD! Just the opposite of BOL.
This is absolutely false.

Jesus rebukes Thomas for his unbelief and that he had to be SHOWN the wounds of Christ in order to believe.
He then makes a comparison by blessing those who believe WITHOUT having to see him.

What sets Thomas apart from the others is NOT the fact that they also saw Jesus sand believed. It is the fact that Thomas went so far as to imply that he wouldn't even believe if he saw Christ without putting his fingers in the nail marks and his hand in his side.

THAT is a lack of faith. He had TEN witnesses, who were his brothers in Christ who testified to the fact that He had risen and he STILL refused to believe. It wasn't until Christ basically rubbed his nose in it that he finally believed.

Thomas is NOT a "hero" or faith here - he is a cautionary figure to ALL of us when we have doubts in Christ.
He's not a "bad" guy, either. He is ALL of us in those time that we have doubted.