Driven or Drawn

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Netchaplain

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There are two methods which the Father graciously adopts in order to draw the heart away from this present world. The first is, by setting before it the attractiveness and stability of “things above”: the second is, by faithfully declaring the evanescent and shakable nature of “things of the earth.”

The close of Hebrews 12 furnishes a beautiful example of each of these methods. After stating the truth, that we are come unto mount Zion, with all its attendant joys and privileges, the apostle goes on to say, “See that ye refuse not Him that speaketh; for if they escaped not who refused him that spoke on earth, much more shall not we escape if we turn away from Him that speaketh from heaven; whose voice them shook the earth, but now He hath promised, saying, “Yet once I shake not only the earth, but also heaven. This “once” signifieth the removal of the shakable things, as of things that are made, that the unshakable things may remain” (Heb 12:25-27).

Now it is much better to be drawn by the hoys of heaven, that driven by the sorrows of earth. The believer should not wait to be shaken out of present things. He should not wait for the world to give him up, before he gives up the world: he should give it up in the power of communion with heavenly things.

There is no difficulty in giving up the world when we have, by faith, laid hold of the Lord Jesus: the difficulty would then be to hold it. If a scavenger were left an estate of ten thousand a year, he would not long continue to sweep the streets. Thus, if we are realizing our portion amid the unshakable realities of heaven, we shall find little difficulty in resigning the delusive joys of earth.

Consider Lot, “sitting in the gate of Sodom,” the place of authority. He has evidently made progress—he has “got on in the world.” Looked at from a worldly point of view, his course has been a successful one. He at first “pitched his tent toward Sodom”; then, no doubt, he found his way into it; and now we find him sitting in the gate—a prominent, influential post.

How different Abraham! “By faith Abraham sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles.” We have no such statement in reference to Lot. It could not be said, “By faith Lot sat in the gate of Sodom.” Alas no; He gets no place among the noble army of confessors—“the great cloud of witnesses” to the power of faith. The world was his snare, present things his bane. He did not “endure as seeing Him who is invisible.” He looked at “the things which are seen, and temporal”; whereas Abraham looked at “the things which are unseen and eternal.”

We do not find that Lot is permitted to enjoy any of the high distinctions and privileges with which Abraham was favored. Instead of refreshing the Lord, Lot gets his “righteous soul vexed”; instead of enjoying communion with the Lord, he is at a lamentable distance from Him; and, lastly, instead of interceding for others, he finds enough to do to intercede for himself.

There was a most material difference between those two men, who, though they started together on their course, reached a very different goal, so far as their public testimony was concerned. No doubt Lot was saved, yet it was “so as by fire,” for truly, “his work was burned up.” On the other hand, Abraham has “an abundant entrance ministered unto him into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”

- C H Mackintosh

Devotional by Miles J Stanford: http://www.abideabove.com/hungry-heart/
 

OzSpen

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NetChaplain said:
There are two methods which the Father graciously adopts in order to draw the heart away from this present world. The first is, by setting before it the attractiveness and stability of “things above”: the second is, by faithfully declaring the evanescent and shakable nature of “things of the earth.”

The close of Hebrews 12 furnishes a beautiful example of each of these methods. After stating the truth, that we are come unto mount Zion, with all its attendant joys and privileges, the apostle goes on to say, “See that ye refuse not Him that speaketh; for if they escaped not who refused him that spoke on earth, much more shall not we escape if we turn away from Him that speaketh from heaven; whose voice them shook the earth, but now He hath promised, saying, “Yet once I shake not only the earth, but also heaven. This “once” signifieth the removal of the shakable things, as of things that are made, that the unshakable things may remain” (Heb 12:25-27).

Now it is much better to be drawn by the hoys of heaven, that driven by the sorrows of earth. The believer should not wait to be shaken out of present things. He should not wait for the world to give him up, before he gives up the world: he should give it up in the power of communion with heavenly things.

There is no difficulty in giving up the world when we have, by faith, laid hold of the Lord Jesus: the difficulty would then be to hold it. If a scavenger were left an estate of ten thousand a year, he would not long continue to sweep the streets. Thus, if we are realizing our portion amid the unshakable realities of heaven, we shall find little difficulty in resigning the delusive joys of earth.

Consider Lot, “sitting in the gate of Sodom,” the place of authority. He has evidently made progress—he has “got on in the world.” Looked at from a worldly point of view, his course has been a successful one. He at first “pitched his tent toward Sodom”; then, no doubt, he found his way into it; and now we find him sitting in the gate—a prominent, influential post.

How different Abraham! “By faith Abraham sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles.” We have no such statement in reference to Lot. It could not be said, “By faith Lot sat in the gate of Sodom.” Alas no; He gets no place among the noble army of confessors—“the great cloud of witnesses” to the power of faith. The world was his snare, present things his bane. He did not “endure as seeing Him who is invisible.” He looked at “the things which are seen, and temporal”; whereas Abraham looked at “the things which are unseen and eternal.”

We do not find that Lot is permitted to enjoy any of the high distinctions and privileges with which Abraham was favored. Instead of refreshing the Lord, Lot gets his “righteous soul vexed”; instead of enjoying communion with the Lord, he is at a lamentable distance from Him; and, lastly, instead of interceding for others, he finds enough to do to intercede for himself.

There was a most material difference between those two men, who, though they started together on their course, reached a very different goal, so far as their public testimony was concerned. No doubt Lot was saved, yet it was “so as by fire,” for truly, “his work was burned up.” On the other hand, Abraham has “an abundant entrance ministered unto him into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”

- C H Mackintosh

Devotional by Miles J Stanford: http://www.abideabove.com/hungry-heart/
The Calvinism of unconditional election and irresistible grace seems to use the language of 'driven' to Christ, but Jesus in John 6:37, 44, 65 uses the language of 'drawing' and 'being granted' by the Father.

The gentle drawing and wooing by the Father, through the Spirit. In 1 John 4:19 we are taught that we love because He first loved us. The initiative is with God, according to these Scriptures.

Oz
 

Netchaplain

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OzSpen said:
The Calvinism of unconditional election and irresistible grace seems to use the language of 'driven' to Christ, but Jesus in John 6:37, 44, 65 uses the language of 'drawing' and 'being granted' by the Father.

The gentle drawing and wooing by the Father, through the Spirit. In 1 John 4:19 we are taught that we love because He first loved us. The initiative is with God, according to these Scriptures.

Oz
HI Oz - Thanks for your reply and comment. There are others who have replied with the same concept concerning the intention of "driven," but in my opinion I believe God drives us to seek to be "drawn," through the infirmities of this life, which reveals to us the alternatives.

Myself I'm still not convinced that man has no choice concerning receiving salvation, but no doubt cannot have anything to do towards effecting salvation, other than just being its recipient. Thus I suspect that His "drawing" can be rejected, same as His Spirit being "resisted" (Acts 7:51); one not choosing "life" (Deu 30:19), or making the wrong choice (Adam & Eve).

God bless!
 

OzSpen

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NetChaplain said:
HI Oz - Thanks for your reply and comment. There are others who have replied with the same concept concerning the intention of "driven," but in my opinion I believe God drives us to seek to be "drawn," through the infirmities of this life, which reveals to us the alternatives.

Myself I'm still not convinced that man has no choice concerning receiving salvation, but no doubt cannot have anything to do towards effecting salvation, other than just being its recipient. Thus I suspect that His "drawing" can be rejected, same as His Spirit being "resisted" (Acts 7:51); one not choosing "life" (Deu 30:19), or making the wrong choice (Adam & Eve).

God bless!
NetChaplain,

I'm in agreement with your final conclusion that this 'drawing' can be rejected. So there is a human element in resisting the Holy Spirit and the Father's drawing, John 6:37, 44, 65. However, the human element of responding in faith is not possible without the Father's drawing, based on these words from Jesus.

That's why I support prevenient grace and not irresistible grace in relation to salvation.

Your idea that God drives us to seek to be 'drawn' seems contorted to me. Or is it your attempt to mix irresistible grace with prevenient grace? Would you mind explaining further so I know exactly what you are driving at? ;)

Oz
 

Netchaplain

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OzSpen said:
NetChaplain,

I'm in agreement with your final conclusion that this 'drawing' can be rejected. So there is a human element in resisting the Holy Spirit and the Father's drawing, John 6:37, 44, 65. However, the human element of responding in faith is not possible without the Father's drawing, based on these words from Jesus.

That's why I support prevenient grace and not irresistible grace in relation to salvation.

Your idea that God drives us to seek to be 'drawn' seems contorted to me. Or is it your attempt to mix irresistible grace with prevenient grace? Would you mind explaining further so I know exactly what you are driving at? ;)

Oz
It's my belief that God uses everything (ease and hardness) in this life to appeal to adults concerning salvation, e.g. the hardness of this life ("curse") is revealed to "drive" one to choose "life," i.e. Deu 30:19.
 

StanJ

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NetChaplain said:
It's my belief that God uses everything (ease and hardness) in this life to appeal to adults concerning salvation, e.g. the hardness of this life ("curse") is revealed to "drive" one to choose "life," i.e. Deu 30:19.
I agree, to the extant that nobody really understands how God draws and why some respond positively and others do not. Far too often we tend to limit, at least by way of our understanding, how God is able to effectively deal with mankind. All we know for sure is that he does, and that He loves us all equally. Sadly we don't all equally return that love or understand it.

Is 55:8-11
“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.
9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.
10 As the rain and the snow
come down from heaven,
and do not return to it
without watering the earth
and making it bud and flourish,
so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater,
11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
 

Netchaplain

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StanJ said:
I agree, to the extant that nobody really understands how God draws and why some respond positively and others do not. Far too often we tend to limit, at least by way of our understanding, how God is able to effectively deal with mankind. All we know for sure is that he does, and that He loves us all equally. Sadly we don't all equally return that love or understand it.

Is 55:8-11
“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.
9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.
10 As the rain and the snow
come down from heaven,
and do not return to it
without watering the earth
and making it bud and flourish,
so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater,
11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
Hi SJ - Thanks for your reply and comment on which I agree, we need not know everything concerning God's ways, nor can man know them all, outside what He reveals in is Word.

I believer the primary instruction though is in the fact that God knows all who will be saved, and everything He knows He has known from everlasting (eternity past), and from realizing His omniscience much can be learned as He teaches it.
 

FHII

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NetChaplain said:
Hi SJ - Thanks for your reply and comment on which I agree, we need not know everything concerning God's ways, nor can man know them all, outside what He reveals in is Word.

I believer the primary instruction though is in the fact that God knows all who will be saved, and everything He knows He has known from everlasting (eternity past), and from realizing His omniscience much can be learned as He teaches it.
I wholeheartedly agree!