Edward Fudge: Hero Or Heretic?

[VictoryinJesus]

Earlier on I expressed my antipathy against the concept of eternal torment based on God's character. No-one has answered this, nor attempted to. I'm not surprised at this, because everything we know of God or have been informed of Him in His word cries out in objection and loathing to the idea that Jesus would immortalize sin by granting sinners eternal life.
The only moral defense offered for eternal torment has been that it is a deterrent to sin. Please tell us how immortalizing sin can be a deterrent against it? And while you're at it, can you explain why punishment should be the prime deterrent to sin anyway? I can think of several other things that would be a far greater deterrent to sin than the threat of punishment. Certainly the fear of punishment would never stand as grounds for repentance. I hope that isn't how you teach your own children to respect your authority.
But back to God's character. We know He is
merciful
gracious
longsuffering
abundant in goodness
and truth
just
love
compassionate
patient.
Please explain how eternal torment is a reflection of any of the above attributes of God. Please explain why God would choose to immortalize sin in His creation rather than destroy it. Please explain how a constant barrage of profanity and cursing by suffering tormented beings without end brings glory to God. Please explain how a fourteen year old child who knew not Christ and a 75 year old profane murderer can share the same eternal punishment and be just. Please explain how eternal torment is a reflection of love. Who is God loving in that context? The sinner? The redeemed? Himself? Where is compassion? Where is grace?
Please explain from the life of Jesus and His interaction with people and His selfless giving of Himself to benefit others, how this harmonizes with your understanding of His warnings against refusing His message.
For goodness sakes. For God's sake...literally. You profess to know God. You profess to desire to be changed into His character...the image of Jesus. How can you not recognize the complete discordant dichotomy between Who God is, and what you believe Him capable of doing?
It astounds me that otherwise sensible clear thinking people are so willing to defend so resolutely a concept upon which rests so flimsy evidence, and not only so, happily resort to changing the entire meaning of a word in order to justify their the position. Death...separation? Not one dictionary on the planet describes death as a separation. It goes against the rules of language...common sense...and reality. When a plant or tree dies - from what is it separated from?
And no-one has offered an explanation how anything separated from God, the only source of life, can still live. Oh, right. They are immortal. Even that is made up. A complete fabrication. The evidence for the natural immortality of the soul isn't even flimsy. It is completely non existent. Even more that that, there is scripture that states categorically the very opposite.
God is Spirit. God only hath immortality. How clearer does God need to be to convince you of this truth? The soul that sinneth, it shall die.

What I can’t understand is how we all are saying something different, and we all think we are right. Myself included which is terrifying and if I’m being honest causes tremendous doubts.

 

[Enoch111]

What I can’t understand is how we all are saying something different, and we all think we are right.

It all started with Ellen G. White's false teachings on Hell. So the SDA church simply swallowed them hook, line, and sinker. Now all the cults have become Annihilationists.

And you yourself have been trying to avoid the truth about Hell by going off on a tangent about God being a consuming fire. Yes God is indeed a consuming fire, but that has ZERO RELEVANCE to the doctrine of Hell (the Lake of Fire).

If you want to be grounded in the truth, pay close attention to the words of Christ -- who is the final authority on Hell, since He himself created it for the devil and His angels. But it is also reserved for the unsaved. I have already posted Mark 9:42-50, so I will not post it again. But that is where you must start, and keep in mind that Jesus was speaking about Gehenna, the Lake of Fire, not merely a rubbish dump as some would have you believe.

 

[justbyfaith]

Is it not the mercy of God that He allows a man to continue to live on in eternity (to have consciousness); though he live on in the torment of fire?

If you were given the option of having your life completely snuffed out, or being able to live on albeit in a state of suffering, which would you choose?

Thing is, because man continues to live on as a sinner, in rejecting the remedy for sin he will continue to sin throughout eternity; and it is pleasing to the LORD in His attribute of justice to punish the sinner who continues to sin.

Rom 9:20, Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21, Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22, What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

 

[justbyfaith]

I have never been unconscious apart from entering into a dream state.

So I don't know what it would be to be absolutely unconscious for the rest of eternity.

It seems to me that there would be some kind of continuation of my consciousness after death...whether that experience is pleasant or unpleasant.

I cannot imagine going into eternity and being unconscious for ever in eternity in the sense of all of my life being snuffed out and having absolutely no more consciousness.

Have you ever thought about this?

I guess that is what it means in the nkjv when it says,

Ecc 3:11, He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also He has put eternity in their hearts, except that no one can find out the work that God does from beginning to end.

 

[BarneyFife]

Earlier on I expressed my antipathy against the concept of eternal torment based on God's character. No-one has answered this, nor attempted to. I'm not surprised at this, because everything we know of God or have been informed of Him in His word cries out in objection and loathing to the idea that Jesus would immortalize sin by granting sinners eternal life.
The only moral defense offered for eternal torment has been that it is a deterrent to sin. Please tell us how immortalizing sin can be a deterrent against it? And while you're at it, can you explain why punishment should be the prime deterrent to sin anyway? I can think of several other things that would be a far greater deterrent to sin than the threat of punishment. Certainly the fear of punishment would never stand as grounds for repentance. I hope that isn't how you teach your own children to respect your authority.
But back to God's character. We know He is
merciful
gracious
longsuffering
abundant in goodness
and truth
just
love
compassionate
patient.
Please explain how eternal torment is a reflection of any of the above attributes of God. Please explain why God would choose to immortalize sin in His creation rather than destroy it. Please explain how a constant barrage of profanity and cursing by suffering tormented beings without end brings glory to God. Please explain how a fourteen year old child who knew not Christ and a 75 year old profane murderer can share the same eternal punishment and be just. Please explain how eternal torment is a reflection of love. Who is God loving in that context? The sinner? The redeemed? Himself? Where is compassion? Where is grace?
Please explain from the life of Jesus and His interaction with people and His selfless giving of Himself to benefit others, how this harmonizes with your understanding of His warnings against refusing His message.
For goodness sakes. For God's sake...literally. You profess to know God. You profess to desire to be changed into His character...the image of Jesus. How can you not recognize the complete discordant dichotomy between Who God is, and what you believe Him capable of doing?
It astounds me that otherwise sensible clear thinking people are so willing to defend so resolutely a concept upon which rests so flimsy evidence, and not only so, happily resort to changing the entire meaning of a word in order to justify their the position. Death...separation? Not one dictionary on the planet describes death as a separation. It goes against the rules of language...common sense...and reality. When a plant or tree dies - from what is it separated from?
And no-one has offered an explanation how anything separated from God, the only source of life, can still live. Oh, right. They are immortal. Even that is made up. A complete fabrication. The evidence for the natural immortality of the soul isn't even flimsy. It is completely non existent. Even more that that, there is scripture that states categorically the very opposite.
God is Spirit. God only hath immortality. How clearer does God need to be to convince you of this truth? The soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Amen, Brother.
I don't know if this was brought up before (I've been a little busy lately), but the reason God separated Adam and Eve from Eden and the tree of life to begin with was to keep sin from being immortalized. It makes no sense at all that He would end up working at cross-purposes with Himself. He changeth not.

 

[BarneyFife]

Is it not the mercy of God that He allows a man to continue to live on in eternity (to have consciousness); though he live on in the torment of fire?

If you were given the option of having your life completely snuffed out, or being able to live on albeit in a state of suffering, which would you choose?

Thing is, because man continues to live on as a sinner, in rejecting the remedy for sin he will continue to sin throughout eternity; and it is pleasing to the LORD in His attribute of justice to punish the sinner who continues to sin.

You have got to be kidding.

 

[justbyfaith]

You have got to be kidding.

No, not at all.

 

[justbyfaith]

If your life were slowly being snuffed out, what does that feel like?

What would it feel like at the end of such a process?

Try holding your breath for about five minutes.

 

[Taken]

Well that is TOTALLY FALSE and I did not expect false doctrine from your corner. Just goes so show how insidious Satan's lies can be.

No, Scripture is not False.
No, Believing Scripture is not False.

I know you have your heart set on "All" nonbelievers being in torments Forever...
But Study of Scripture reveals...
* Only that which has LIFE IN IT can be Tormented/Suffer.

It is a deeper study than which you have delved into....VOID of your KNOW it all sarcasm and accusations the Truth is Revealed in Scripture should you want to see it.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

[QUOTE="justbyfaith, post: 816778, member: 7886"
Allegories do...parables don't.[/B]

Call it what "you" Will.
Jesus fulfilled Scripture by Speaking in Parables, not allegories.
Jesus IS the Truth. Nothing out of His Mouth was Not true.
He spoke in Parables, Expressly for Believers to Believe Him, and other to challenge his words.
You are challenging His words.

Matt 13:
[34] All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude inparables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
[35] That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

Matt 13:
[13] Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

You are redefining Jesus' words to an allegory; A short FICTIOUS story to make a point.
No Jesus did not speak in FICTIOUS NON Truths. Jesus IS the Truth.

But even if it is a parable, what is the meaning of the parable? What does "being in torments" (Luke 16:23) mean parabolically?

There are Two kinds of Suffering.

* Suffering of Torments BECAUSE: an Individual IS "in STANDING WITH" the Lord God...
(That is the Torment being doled out By Satan and men)...
It is Temporary IN this World.

* Suffering of Torments BECAUSE: an individual IS "in STANDING AGAINST" the Lord God...
(That is the Torment being doled out By God).

The Fact is...
"In This world"...those With God...are hated, targeted, slandered, belittled, tricked, treated unjustly, blah, blah, blah...BY Satan and men Without God....Expressly Because "they" Stand With God.

The fact is...
"In THE New World"...there will be..None...not Satan, not men..."Against God"...None to torment those WITH God.

Those who Tormented men "WITH God"...(Expressly "Because" they were "With God" shall Suffer Gods Eternal Torment.
Eternal smell of sulfur.
Eternal thirst without water.
Eternal heat without a cool relief.
Eternal sight without beauty.
Eternal touch without comfort.
Eternal hearing without Gods Word.
Fully aware that is their Eternal destiny separated from God Forever.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Waiting on him]

Earlier on I expressed my antipathy against the concept of eternal torment based on God's character. No-one has answered this, nor attempted to. I'm not surprised at this, because everything we know of God or have been informed of Him in His word cries out in objection and loathing to the idea that Jesus would immortalize sin by granting sinners eternal life.
The only moral defense offered for eternal torment has been that it is a deterrent to sin. Please tell us how immortalizing sin can be a deterrent against it? And while you're at it, can you explain why punishment should be the prime deterrent to sin anyway? I can think of several other things that would be a far greater deterrent to sin than the threat of punishment. Certainly the fear of punishment would never stand as grounds for repentance. I hope that isn't how you teach your own children to respect your authority.
But back to God's character. We know He is
merciful
gracious
longsuffering
abundant in goodness
and truth
just
love
compassionate
patient.
Please explain how eternal torment is a reflection of any of the above attributes of God. Please explain why God would choose to immortalize sin in His creation rather than destroy it. Please explain how a constant barrage of profanity and cursing by suffering tormented beings without end brings glory to God. Please explain how a fourteen year old child who knew not Christ and a 75 year old profane murderer can share the same eternal punishment and be just. Please explain how eternal torment is a reflection of love. Who is God loving in that context? The sinner? The redeemed? Himself? Where is compassion? Where is grace?
Please explain from the life of Jesus and His interaction with people and His selfless giving of Himself to benefit others, how this harmonizes with your understanding of His warnings against refusing His message.
For goodness sakes. For God's sake...literally. You profess to know God. You profess to desire to be changed into His character...the image of Jesus. How can you not recognize the complete discordant dichotomy between Who God is, and what you believe Him capable of doing?
It astounds me that otherwise sensible clear thinking people are so willing to defend so resolutely a concept upon which rests so flimsy evidence, and not only so, happily resort to changing the entire meaning of a word in order to justify their the position. Death...separation? Not one dictionary on the planet describes death as a separation. It goes against the rules of language...common sense...and reality. When a plant or tree dies - from what is it separated from?
And no-one has offered an explanation how anything separated from God, the only source of life, can still live. Oh, right. They are immortal. Even that is made up. A complete fabrication. The evidence for the natural immortality of the soul isn't even flimsy. It is completely non existent. Even more that that, there is scripture that states categorically the very opposite.
God is Spirit. God only hath immortality. How clearer does God need to be to convince you of this truth? The soul that sinneth, it shall die.

The deterrent to sin is, knowledge of it.

 

[Waiting on him]

Only upon viewing the majesty of Christ can we say that we have the knowledge of good and evil, not all have seen this good.

 

[Taken]

Not really an invitation to slam Mr. Fudge. I just wondered how many proponents of annihilationism we have on board.

Can Not say what Mr. Fudges' conclusions are... but Scripture Reveals the Truth.

Does hell burn for eternity or just until the wicked suffer corresponding to the exact amount of evil caused by their words, thoughts, and deeds?

Hell is a place, "in" the Earth, that shall be removed from "its" place, and "put" into a Lake of Fire, which is also a place "in" the Earth.

"Evil spirits," shall be sent to the Lake of Fire.
(They can not die, they shall suffer the torments OF the Lake of Fire). This is a Forever permanent Judgement "for them."

The cause: is Expressly "For" their Deeds.
Their Deeds, "having been" Expressly, TO "promote ... DISBELIEF in the Lord God."

"Their means" of promoting Disbelief in the Lord God... are endless to the imagination...
Deceit, Lies, Trickery.

One Evil spirit will not be suffering Torment greater than another.
What they Hear, Smell, Taste, Feel, See... is equally the same disgusting for all.
As well they "all know" this "is" their permanent Forever Fate.

That is regarding "EVIL spirits". ( Which "IS" spirits that were created "holy" and by their Freewill, fell from Gods Grace, Turned Against God, exalted themselves, and became "UNHOLY" and Against God.)

What happens to men, is specific to men, according to what individual men have exercised "their Freewill" and "chosen".

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Waiting on him]

Can Not say what Mr. Fudges' conclusions are... but Scripture Reveals the Truth.



Hell is a place, "in" the Earth, that shall be removed from "its" place, and "put" into a Lake of Fire, which is also a place "in" the Earth.

"Evil spirits," shall be sent to the Lake of Fire.
(They can not die, they shall suffer the torments OF the Lake of Fire). This is a Forever permanent Judgement "for them."

The cause: is Expressly "For" their Deeds.
Their Deeds, "having been" Expressly, TO "promote ... DISBELIEF in the Lord God."

"Their means" of promoting Disbelief in the Lord God... are endless to the imagination...
Deceit, Lies, Trickery.

One Evil spirit will not be suffering Torment greater than another.
What they Hear, Smell, Taste, Feel, See... is equally the same disgusting for all.
As well they "all know" this "is" their permanent Forever Fate.

That is regarding "EVIL spirits". ( Which "IS" spirits that were created "holy" and by their Freewill, fell from Gods Grace, Turned Against God, exalted themselves, and became "UNHOLY" and Against God.)

What happens to men, is specific to men, according to what individual men have exercised "their Freewill" and "chosen".

Glory to God,
Taken

I personally believe that hell is concieved in the heart of the unredeemed, and proceeds out from the tongue. My hope is that when the time comes that all tongues cease death will be swallowed up in victory.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

It all started with Ellen G. White's false teachings on Hell. So the SDA church simply swallowed them hook, line, and sinker. Now all the cults have become Annihilationists.

Wasn’t even talking about the SDA church.

What makes you right? All the different views reading the same scriptures, all said to be being led by the same spirit yet a world of disagreement and right fighters. Was thinking how wonderful it would be if we all came together without any already predetermined doctrines, with slates wiped clean...a new beginning at talking to one another and actually seeing a person instead of a doctrinal error. But that seems impossible because each of us comes to the Table knowing it all already.

And you yourself have been trying to avoid the truth about Hell by going off on a tangent about God being a consuming fire. Yes God is indeed a consuming fire, but that has ZERO RELEVANCE to the doctrine of Hell (the Lake of Fire).

What is wrath if not hell? Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

 

[Brakelite]

Is it not the mercy of God that He allows a man to continue to live on in eternity (to have consciousness); though he live on in the torment of fire?

If you were given the option of having your life completely snuffed out, or being able to live on albeit in a state of suffering, which would you choose?

Thing is, because man continues to live on as a sinner, in rejecting the remedy for sin he will continue to sin throughout eternity; and it is pleasing to the LORD in His attribute of justice to punish the sinner who continues to sin.

Rom 9:20, Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21, Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22, What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

 

[Brakelite]

What I can’t understand is how we all are saying something different, and we all think we are right. Myself included which is terrifying and if I’m being honest causes tremendous doubts.

And that is all I can hope for. That you think. My job is done if my posts give you pause to doubt and reexamine your position. Start studying afresh the foundations of what you are standing on. How firm. How solid. How real.

 

[amadeus]

What I can’t understand is how we all are saying something different, and we all think we are right. Myself included which is terrifying and if I’m being honest causes tremendous doubts.

This my friend is really a good place to be... Don't be terrified! Be thankful!

"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts." Prov 21:2

It is a good place to be because it allows you to more easily open yourself up to God. That is... recognizing what Solomon wrote as the truth about yourself, allows you to doubt your own convictions, your own beliefs. You may be right on every point. The doubt, the openness, the recognition before God that you might be wrong taken along with talking to Him [not necessarily even on this subject] and reading/studying the Bible let God make changes or at least show you other possibilities. Which one is the right one? Is it mine? Is it hers or his or that other person's?

What Solomon wrote may also be seen here in Jeremiah:

"O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." Jerem 10:23

Some will insist that those are OT sayings and not applicable to someone born again today, but I say, nay! We are flesh now as people were flesh then. That has not changed until all of the fleshly ways and thoughts are gone and we are very much like Him.

This is one way, perhaps the worst way, that OSAS works against people growing in Christ. We must recognize our frailties and the possibilities of our errors contained in what we believe. This is not always throwing them all out. It is allowing God to confirm them... or if need be to change or improve them... and yes, sometimes indeed to cast something completely out. One step at a time with the Holy Spirit leading and us following.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

If you want to be grounded in the truth, pay close attention to the words of Christ -- who is the final authority on Hell, since He himself created it for the devil and His angels. But it is also reserved for the unsaved. I have already posted Mark 9:42-50, so I will not post it again. But that is where you must start, and keep in mind that Jesus was speaking about Gehenna, the Lake of Fire, not merely a rubbish dump as some would have you believe.

there again in my head is already something formed. Yes, would say God formed a weapon: travail to give birth to prevail.

question Jeremiah 5:22 Fear ye not me? saith the Lord : will ye not tremble at my presence, which have placed the sand for the bound of the sea by a perpetual decree, that it cannot pass it: and though the waves thereof toss themselves, yet can they not prevail; though they roar, yet can they not pass over it?

the sand for the bound ...that though the waves thereof toss themselves And roar, yet can they not prevail ...

with hurricanes and floods ...do waves which roar and toss ever pass over the bounds of the sand?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

This my friend is really a good place to be... Don't be terrified! Be thankful!

so often feel crushed and realize how little I know or understand, but then there is still there ‘a miss know-it-all’ that rises up throwing out scriptures left and right saying ‘what about that’ ...it is like I can’t stop Amadeus and shut my mouth. My worst enemy being myself...