Edward Fudge: Hero Or Heretic?

[Earburner]

More baloney from one who presents himself as a Bible student. Just because the KJV translators mistakenly called Sheol (the region of departed souls and spirits) BOTH "hell" and "the pit" and "the grave" does not mean that hell is the grave. This has been posted a hundred times but it never seems to sink in:

THE KJV MISTRANSLATIONS
SHEOL = hell, grave, pit
HADES (SAME AS SHEOL) = hell
GEHENNA (THE LAKE OF FIRE) = hell
TARTARUS (THE PRISON FOR EVIL ANGELS) = hell

The grave cannot be hell for the simple reason that it is only six feet (or less) under the surface of the earth. There are no souls in the soil. However, there may be soles of discarded shoes and boots.

You wrote:
"SHEOL = hell, grave, pit
HADES (SAME AS SHEOL) = hell
GEHENNA (THE LAKE OF FIRE) = hell
TARTARUS (THE PRISON FOR EVIL ANGELS) = hell"

> So then, where is:
Sheol?
On the earth!
Hades?
On the earth!
Gehenna?
On the earth!
Tartarus?
On the earth!
Now, who is it that shall cause/generate the Lake of Fire "On" the whole earth?
Ans. The Glorious and Fiery return of the Lord Jesus!
2 Thessalonians 1:7-10
Hebrews 12:29
2 Peter 3:10-13
There will be NO escapees, to repopulate the earth.

 

[CharismaticLady]

I think it is misguided. Off the top of my head, I cannot refute scripturally. I know that the angels are most often mentioned separately from us when it comes to final punishment, but I don't see that as an indication that justice will be any different for them than for us. All unrepentant sinners (human and angelic) will suffer corresponding to their exact level of guilt. Anything else would be unjust. I'll try to look into your reasoning more extensively as soon as I can get to it. I'll shoot for tomorrow night at the latest.

Okay, the reasoning has to do with mortal vs. immortal if that helps. Also, please answer why you think Peter said it would have better for them to have never been saved, than to be saved, and turn against Him.

 

[CharismaticLady]

I did think again already!
Hell is the grave, and not what the religious of the denominations of Religion want you to believe!
So, where are the graves (hell)?
They are in the earth.
Now, when Jesus returns (2 Thessalonians 1:7-10) in all His Glory, in flaming fire (Hebrews 12:29), according to 2 Peter 3:10-13, the elements (earth) will melt with fervent heat...".
THAT IS the Lake of Fire!

Again, where is hell THEN, at that time of the Lord's Fiery return?
Ans. In the earth, in the Lake of Fire!
And here is the clincher, for another false topic, for another time: there will be
NO escapees!!

Its all amazingly simple, if one would just allow the Holy Spirit to "guide you" , and not the "religious spin" of Religion, and all their book learning and word crunching!

So do you think there will be Christians whose names are NOT written in the Book of Life that will be in the Lake of Fire? You said you believe only Christians are in the second resurrection.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Oh, but that is where you are wrong! It most surely is about judgment:
1. The judgment of death through Adam
2. The judgment of Life through Christ.
John 3:18.
Could it be that your thinking has been skewed by Religion? I am going to give you alot to think about, that is contrary to many popular religious beliefs.

Are you sure that it is the unsaved dead who is being referenced here?
KJV Rev. 20[4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:
> Is that not taking place now?
Spiritually speaking, in Christ, are we not ambassadors for Christ, holding forth to the unsaved, the words of His Truth for salvation? They either accept Him or reject Him by our witness. That is judgment.

and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded
1. for the witness of Jesus,
and
2. for the word of God,
and
3. which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands;
4. and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Q. Were there not Christians being beheaded, BEFORE the MoB shall be revealed?
Surely you don't think that only those who will not take the MoB, will be the only Christians beheaded, since the time of Jesus. Lets begin with John the Baptist.
Wasn't he "a witness of Jesus"?

> When did they live and reign with Christ?
A. Before His Glorious and Fiery return?
B. After His Glorious and Fiery return?
Lets see:
[5] But the rest of the dead [those Christians who were not martyrs] lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Q. When did the first resurrection take place?
A. Jesus.
Q. Who was/is the first resurrection?
A. Jesus.

Q. If you are now a "partaker of the divine nature", what are you now taking "part" in?
A. Jesus, who is "the Firstborn from the dead", aka the FIRST resurrection!!

Q. Have you been born again by His Spirit?
If not, then you are not a "partaker" in the first resurrection, aka "the divine nature", who is Jesus, and therefore Romans 8:9 applies to you.

So the questions remain, when is the 1000 years, who and what does it involve, and when is it "finished"? Is it happening now, ever since Pentecost?
Clue:
1 Peter 2[9] But ye are [present tense]
a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
Rev. 1[6] And hath made us [present tense] kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Q. So, what do "priests unto God" do?
A. They serve God, in the work/act of reconciliation!
Q. Are we not now doing that work of reconciliation (judgment) now, everytime we bare witness about Jesus, with those who are unsaved?
Yes! We are!

Could it be that a thousand years is meant to be understood as being figuratively, and not literally? Maybe one day to God, really "is as a thousand years"!
Therefore, could it be, that a 1000 years is symbolic, and is only pointing to God's Age of Grace, and not anything else?

When will God's Age of Grace end?
Correct- you do not know, and neither does Jesus! Only the Father knows. He has set no time limit on the length of time for His Grace to us. It could end now in this year of 2020 and/or in another 500-1000 years after that. Only the Father knows.
However, Jesus did give us a clue, of what it will be, that shall cause the Father to send His Son for His Saints. Luke 18:8

Yes, as you probably guessed by now, I am
of the Amillennial view.

Are you also a Preterist?

 

[justbyfaith]

If it is outside our grasp why do you discuss it at all? Are you not also human? You say believe what is revealed and then tell everyone else what is apparently revealed to you. What is revealed to me and to him and to the other guy? The written scriptures cannot be alone the arbiter here because humans disagree on what the written verses mean. You may indeed be right on every point, but even as you do not accept the meaning of other people, why do you expect other people to accept the meaning you see?

There is a singular interpretation to every scripture; while there may be many applications.

Pro 1:6, To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings.

What is needed ia for every one who is studying the scriptures to seek the interpretation that might be given to them by the author of the book.

If you have a personal relationship with the author, there can be no doubt as to whether your interpretation is correct, if in fact you have asked Him what is the meaning of any given scripture.

Most certainly, there are those who use their own human reasoning and do not ask the author what is the meaning of specific scriptures in the word. And their interpretation will be wrong.

There are also interpretations that come from comparing spiritual thing with spiritual (1 Corinthians 2:13 (kjv)). We can find added meanings as concerning specific scripture verses and/or passages when we bring them to light of other scripture. In bringing other scripture into the equation, we can see more of an interpretation and added application to the scripture at hand.

 

[amadeus]

There is a singular interpretation to every scripture; while there may be many applications.

Pro 1:6, To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings.

What is needed ia for every one who is studying the scriptures to seek the interpretation that might be given to them by the author of the book.

If you have a personal relationship with the author, there can be no doubt as to whether your interpretation is correct, if in fact you have asked Him what is the meaning of any given scripture.

Most certainly, there are those who use their own human reasoning and do not ask the author what is the meaning of specific scriptures in the word. And their interpretation will be wrong.

There are also interpretations that come from comparing spiritual thing with spiritual (1 Corinthians 2:13 (kjv)). We can find added meanings as concerning specific scripture verses and/or passages when we bring them to light of other scripture. In bringing other scripture into the equation, we can see more of an interpretation and added application to the scripture at hand.

Does not the reason why we asked God for an interpretation also matter?

 

[justbyfaith]

Does not the reason why we asked God for an interpretation also matter?

For "the" interpretation.

yes, it matters. We ought to want to know "the" interpretation because we want to know the truth of the matter.

 

[amadeus]

For "the" interpretation.

yes, it matters. We ought to want to know "the" interpretation because we want to know the truth of the matter.

Maybe! In a real situation there is always a, yea, or a , nay, but I would go slow with regard to a hypothetical one.

 

[Taken]

nothing I guess,

Ok, thank you.

other than (imo)devour and the destroyer are brothers.

Maybe that is why Jesus established WHO is His brother, His sister, His mother...

Mark 3:
[35] For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.


Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Earburner]

John 5:24-25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. [25] Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: (and be raised up from the dead) and they that hear shall live.

Amen!
Key words: "...and they that hear shall live."
Christians are not to be copying Jesus' life ONLY!
We are to "follow Him" in the Power of His Resurrection, who is Himself THE First Resurrection.
Therefore, for everyone who is born again of God's Holy Spirit, through Him we are made to be "partakers of the divine nature".
That is HOW we are to "follow Him".

If you think not, then how shall you be
"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection", if you are not born again?
See Romans 8:8-9 and Luke 11:13.
Have you invited Jesus (His Holy Spirit) into your life?

 

[Earburner]

Ok, thank you.




Maybe that is why Jesus established WHO is His brother, His sister, His mother...

Mark 3:
[35] For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.


Glory to God,
Taken

John 6
[40] And THIS IS the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him [the Son], may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Simple, isn't it?

 

[Taken]

John 6
[40] And THIS IS the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him [the Son], may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Simple, isn't it?

Pretty confidant everyone shall be raised up, some may have Everlasting Life, some may not.

Best for individuals to know their STANDING, before the last day.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Earburner]

1. So do you think there will be Christians whose names are NOT written in the Book of Life that will be in the Lake of Fire?
2. You said you believe only Christians are in the second resurrection.

1. That is impossible for anyone who is born again of the Holy Spirit.
2. Since you say that I did say that, could you please quote me verbatim?

 

[CharismaticLady]

1. That is impossible for anyone who is born again of the Holy Spirit.
2. Since you say that I did say that, could you please quote me verbatim?

I already did:

[5] But the rest of the dead [those Christians who were not martyrs] lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

But that was before I discovered your eschatological belief system, which cannot be reconciled to Revelation 20, so it would be a waste of time to discuss, seeing as we do not have a common foundation.

 

[BarneyFife]

Okay, the reasoning has to do with mortal vs. immortal if that helps. Also, please answer why you think Peter said it would have better for them to have never been saved, than to be saved, and turn against Him.

To be perfectly honest, CL, I don't reckon that the Bible speaks directly to the mortality status of angels, but since the evil ones obviously live much longer than humans, it seems reasonable to assume they possess a different nature (whatever that means) than we. I'm the first to admit that some things are just over my head. I would be afraid to conjecture farther than this. As I said, I couldn't refute your theory scripturally, not without doing an in-depth study, which I haven't done and, frankly, I'm not sure I'm up to doing at present. The most direct addressing of this that I know of is 1 Timothy 6:16, which states that God alone has immortality, while 1 Corinthians 15:53 says we will put on immortality, which seems to be placed at the time of Christ's 2nd coming which, if considered deeply, could lead down a mortality/immortality rabbit hole.

As far as Peter's statement goes, I don't think it affects my basic position that each and every unrepentant sinner, human or angelic, will suffer exactly commensurate with the evil he has perpetrated. But it stands to reason that from whom much has been given (in this case, light and grace), much will be required.

If I missed something or need to be more specific, please let me know. I just offer my interpretation. I'm certainly no authority on Scripture. I leave that to the Holy Ghost.

 

[bbyrd009]

2 Peter 2:19 They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves to depravity. For a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him.

iow it would be better if most religious people were never saved in the first place, bc they have not changed their minds at all, and are now only using Jesus for their own ends; for the same reason as twice the sons of hell you are and seven worse spirits, surely.

Just note the Death, More Abundantly imo, it will always be there

More accurately, sin is not imputed where there is no law (it is not that it does not exist).

ha well so you say anyway, yes

did your woman eat from that tree we were told not to eat of, jbf?

 

[CharismaticLady]

while 1 Corinthians 15:53 says we will put on immortality, which seems to be placed at the time of Christ's 2nd coming which, if considered deeply, could lead down a mortality/immortality rabbit hole.

It is our resurrected BODY that has to put on immortality, but our spirit has already become eternal when we were justified and cleansed of all sin.

If angels are not eternal, then why is hell eternal. What purpose would there be if the fallen angels are destroyed and nothing left but hell? Wouldn't God destroy hell when he makes a new heaven and new earth?

 

[Earburner]

Are you also a Preterist?

To some degree, I am, and therefore would be, because I hold to the amillennial view.

Having said that, you should re-examine the wording of KJV- 2 Thes. 1:7-10, and pay attention to the word "when".
[7] And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
[8] In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
[9] Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

[10] When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

According the above scripture, I see the "sudden destruction" of the wicked, and the Redemption of the Saints as being
a simultaneous event.

Because Jesus' Glorious return will be "in
Flaming Fire" (Hebrews 12:29), the entire surface of the earth will be in flames.
None of the unsaved will be left alive, nor shall any escape.
In that day, the entire earth will be a Lake of Fire, and all the unsaved dead, in their graves, will be burned up.

Since there will be none of the unsaved left alive, and all the Saints have been Redeemed, Death will have been vanquished.
The earth will not be repopulated by flesh and blood ever again, therefore there will be no more dying.
The Saints are resurrected into His immortality, therefore no more dying for them either.

 

[justbyfaith]

did your woman eat from that tree we were told not to eat of, jbf?

My woman is nowhere being discussed here.

 

[CharismaticLady]

To some degree, I am, and therefore would be, because I hold to the amillennial view.

Having said that, you should re-examine the wording of KJV- 2 Thes. 1:7-10, and pay attention to the word "when".
[7] And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
[8] In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
[9] Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

[10] When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

According the above scripture, I see the "sudden destruction" of the wicked, and the Redemption of the Saints as being
a simultaneous event.

Because Jesus' Glorious return will be "in
Flaming Fire" (Hebrews 12:29), the entire surface of the earth will be in flames.
None of the unsaved will be left alive, nor shall any escape.
In that day, the entire earth will be a Lake of Fire, and all the unsaved dead, in their graves, will be burned up.

Since there will be none of the unsaved left alive, and all the Saints have been Redeemed, Death will have been vanquished.
The earth will not be repopulated by flesh and blood ever again, therefore there will be no more dying.
The Saints are resurrected into His immortality, therefore no more dying for them either.

Who do you see as the Antichrist?