Edward Fudge: Hero Or Heretic?

[justbyfaith]

I did do a study on KJV- 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12, and discovered through the Textus Receptus Greek, that the translators of the KJV actually used the wrong word of "that" Wicked, causing it to read in the singular, therefore allowing for the use of the uppercase "W". However, the TR-Greek uses the word "the", and therefore the translators should have used the word "the" wicked (lowercase "w"), which causes it to read in the plural, as the context does justify it.

So there are many wicked people who will sit in the temple of God, shewing themselves that they are God?

 

[ReChoired]

...It should be clear that in the story, the rich man was suffering those torments because he wasn't faithful to the Lord in his life.

The "rich man" is "Judah" who had 5 brothers (same mother).

 

[ReChoired]

What does "being in torments" (Luke 16:23) parabolically mean?

In the parable of the Ten Virgins (Matthew 25), what does "wise" and "foolish" "parabolically" (sic) mean?

 

[justbyfaith]

In the parable of the Ten Virgins (Matthew 25), what does "wise" and "foolish" "parabolically" (sic) mean?

What they literally mean.

 

[justbyfaith]

The "rich man" is "Judah" who had 5 brothers (same mother).

Could have been any of the other five also...or none of the five. Where do you specifically get Judah out of this as a "parable".

And what do you interpret "being in torments" to mean, parabolically? Your rhetorical question indicates to me that you believe this ought to be taken literally. How, then, is it merely a parable in your eyes?

 

[ReChoired]

Could have been any of the other five also...or none of the five. Where do you specifically get Judah out of this as a "parable".

Jesus is speaking to "Jews" from "Jerusalem" (all the way back in Luke 13 onward).

 

[ReChoired]

What they literally mean.

Then you answered your own question. Literal things can indeed exist within parables, just as names do.

 

[CharismaticLady]

How did we get to discussing Daniel?

To understand Revelation, you must understand Daniel.

 

[CharismaticLady]

There are some details that don't seem right to me; but I think that Titus fits the bill. Perhaps there's a "missing" Emperor in the list. Perhaps there were two co-Emperors but one wasn't counted.

The actual number of years is hard to get at since the Jewish leaders played with their calendar. They knew, just as Jesus did, that the Temple would soon be destroyed, but they didn't want the common people to know so they subtracted years and no one knows how many for sure although people have opinions.

Missing years (Jewish calendar) - Wikipedia.

No, Titus is in Daniel 9. Chapters 8 and 9 are paradigms of what happens before the Second Coming, chapter 7.

What does this sound like in chapter 7?

13 “I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him.
14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one
Which shall not be destroyed.

Daniel 9:27 - Titus
Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week (7 years);
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”

2nd Jewish revolt from 66 AD to 73 AD, and middle of 7 years is 70 AD.

Daniel 8 - Antiochus Epiphanes IV

1st Jewish revolt from 67 BC to 60 BC, AEIV desolated the temple and dies in 64 BC

The Antichrist

The two 7 year Jewish revolts under antichrist emperors, Antiochus Epiphanes IV and Titus are paradigms (example or pattern of something; a model) of the final 7 years for the Jews before the second coming when The Antichrist, the Beast, the lawless one, the son of perdition will be revealed to persecute the Jews, when all of Israel will be saved. Romans 11:25-27 (BTW, the fullness of the Gentiles, means no more Gentiles will be saved (2 Thes. 2:9-12); the focus for salvation goes back to the Jews. Nominal Christians going into the GT will wash their dirty robes in the blood of the Lamb, and overcome and will be martyred.)

 

[Waiting on him]

So who was this?

3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Think Pharisees?

 

[CharismaticLady]

Think Pharisees?

Study #489

 

[Waiting on him]

I'd like to know where the idea of "THE" Antichrist came from. Who started using the word in the way it's so commonly used today?

To understand Revelation, you must understand Daniel.

You could also look at Joshua when the walls fell and Jesus casts out the usurpers?

 

[Waiting on him]

You may think so, but I think making those assumptions leads to arguments and confusion. I see no reason to use the word "antichrist" in a way other than the way it's used in the Bible. I'll stick to using that word to mean what John meant when he used it.

Daniel 8:11 KJV
[11] Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
Hmmm, who could this little horn be?

 

[bbyrd009]

Because of what @Behold teaches...

he teaches that "works of the flesh" are not sins in the believer; and that as believers in Christ we are without sin because of the fact that we are not under the law (Romans 6:14; Romans 4:15, 1 John 3:4).

But there is more to it than that.

Death reigned from Adam to Moses even though there was no law; because the wages of sin is death: and this indicates that there was such a thing as sin even without the law.

The more accurate reality is that sin is not imputed where there is no law (Romans 5:13).

not "imputed" by whom?

Where the law does not apply, there is no transgression; and some would say that this means there is also no sin.

But the reality is that you can sin without transgressing if there is no law; for trangression is the violation of the law and therefore if there is no law to violate, you can still sin without actually transgressing.

well you already know that he is more under the law than anyone, right, and how to reveal that? so im not getting why you feel the need for any reaction, one, and two isnt the more accurate reality is that all you did was rephrase the point? Do you really believe that there is any material difference? "You can still sin without actually transgressing?" But maybe i just need to reflect on that more, dunno. Or one of us does maybe. Or maybe im not fam with how you are using those terms

interesting concept there at "where the law does not apply" though...although i am detecting a construct there also i think, but how to put it...where does "the law" apply, iyo? Where does it not apply? If someone breaks into..."Behold's" house, or rapes his daughter, who he gone call jbf?

"Behold" tho, srsly? ha yup, well ill be

if you sin, arent you transgressing a spiritual law, jbf? "love your neigbor as yourself?"

 

[Waiting on him]

Was Jerusalem surrounded by armies then?

Luke 21:7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?
. . .
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

What was done to Jesus' body didn't harm him in least. I can't see it creating desolation.

Matthew 23:38 KJV
[38] Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

 

[Giuliano]

L
Reasons why Antiochus cannot be the little horn of Daniel 8.
a. Antiochus was not a horn in his own right. He was of the Seleucid line therefore was a part of one of the four.
b. He did not wax exceeding great. In fact his father was greater, but neither was as great as even Babylon or Media Persia, certainly no greater than Alexander. Yet the prophecy demands that the little horn be greater than any empire before it.

Who else following Alexander the Great comes closer?

 

[Waiting on him]

No, Titus is in Daniel 9. Chapters 8 and 9 are paradigms of what happens before the Second Coming, chapter 7.

What does this sound like in chapter 7?

13 “I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him.
14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one
Which shall not be destroyed.

Daniel 9:27 - Titus
Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week (7 years);
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”

2nd Jewish revolt from 66 AD to 73 AD, and middle of 7 years is 70 AD.

Daniel 8 - Antiochus Epiphanes IV

1st Jewish revolt from 67 BC to 60 BC, AEIV desolated the temple and dies in 64 BC

The Antichrist

The two 7 year Jewish revolts under antichrist emperors, Antiochus Epiphanes IV and Titus are paradigms (example or pattern of something; a model) of the final 7 years for the Jews before the second coming when The Antichrist, the Beast, the lawless one, the son of perdition will be revealed to persecute the Jews, when all of Israel will be saved. Romans 11:25-27 (BTW, the fullness of the Gentiles, means no more Gentiles will be saved (2 Thes. 2:9-12); the focus for salvation goes back to the Jews. Nominal Christians going into the GT will wash their dirty robes in the blood of the Lamb, and overcome and will be martyred.)

You need to rethink this in my opinion, it says in the middle of the week messiah is cut off.

 

[Waiting on him]

Who else following Alexander the Great comes closer?

It’s my opinion Jesus is the little horn, cast down sanctuary destroyed.

 

[Giuliano]

Matthew 23:38 KJV
[38] Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

I can believe their house was left desolate.

 

[Giuliano]

It’s my opinion Jesus is the little horn, cast down sanctuary destroyed.

Jesus arose out of the Grecian Empire?