Edward Fudge: Hero Or Heretic?

[ReChoired]

Read your post I responded to; it doesn't give room for a resurrection of our bodies. Do you know the the unsaved will also be resurrected?

Yes the unsaved will be resurrected (briefly). Yet, the scripture speaks of bodily resurrection, and even gave Moses as type, and Christ Jesus as another:

Rom_5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Jud_1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Luk 9:30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
Luk 9:31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.​

 

[Earburner]

The Day of the Lord
14 Behold, the day of the Lord is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then the Lord will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.

5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.

Thus the Lord my God will come,
And all the saints with You.

6 It shall come to pass in that day
That there will be no light;
The lights will diminish.
7 It shall be one day
Which is known to the Lord—
Neither day nor night.
But at evening time it shall happen
That it will be light.

8 And in that day it shall be
That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem,
Half of them toward the eastern sea
And half of them toward the western sea;
In both summer and winter it shall occur.
9 And the Lord shall be King over all the earth.
In that day it shall be—
“The Lord is one,”
And His name one.

I could really go the distance with you on this, but your patience would run out long before my simple explanation of each verse.
So, lets just try with one that you quoted:
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Do you know how many times Jesus, while on earth, stood in the Mt. of Olives?
Btw, didn't he Ascend into heaven from the Mt. of Olives?
Acts 1:12

 

[CharismaticLady]

I could really go the distance with you on this, but your patience would run out long before my simple explanation of each verse.
So, lets just try with one that you quoted:
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Do you know how many times Jesus, while on earth, stood in the Mt. of Olives?
Btw, didn't he Ascend into heaven from the Mt. of Olives?
Acts 1:12

As I recall, He will return the same way and when He returns the Mt. will split in two.

You didn't answer my question. Do you know the unsaved will also be resurrected?

 

[Giuliano]

Do you know the prophecies of Daniel very well?

I know them well enough to be able to predict we wouldn't agree if we started discussing them. I also know that few Christians take Matthew 24 as written when it discusses Daniel's prophecy. People read that and say, "Didn't happen as predicted." They think the Temple was destroyed without all the things Jesus said would happen before was destroyed. That belief then colors the way they read Daniel. They do believe what Jesus said.

Matthew 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
. . . .
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

The early Christians believed it. Many escaped the horrors of the fall of Jerusalem.

 

[CharismaticLady]

I know them well enough to be able to predict we wouldn't agree if we started discussing them. I also know that few Christians take Matthew 24 as written when it discusses Daniel's prophecy. People read that and say, "Didn't happen as predicted." They think the Temple was destroyed without all the things Jesus said would happen before was destroyed. That belief then colors the way they read Daniel. They do believe what Jesus said.

Matthew 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
. . . .
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

The early Christians believed it. Many escaped the horrors of the fall of Jerusalem.

Yes, I agree they left the city before 70 AD.

Who is the little horn of Daniel 8?

 

[CharismaticLady]

@Giulianoand @Earburner

While Giuliano is thinking about who the little horn of Daniel 8 is, I'm going to bed. Will read your response tomorrow. Good night, brother.

You can respond too Earburner. Who was it?

 

[Giuliano]

Yes, I agree they left the city before 70 AD.

Who is the little horn of Daniel 8?

Yes, and I see the events in Daniel 9 being about the Roman forces coming in. Titus was not yet Emperor yet when he led that campaign, but he was the tenth Emperor. It fits.

Daniel 8 appears to be about something else, about how the the rule of the Medes and Persians would be replaced by the Greeks. That happened when Alexander the Great established his kingdom. After his death and a period of confusion, four separate kingdoms arose out of what was left of his empire -- described in verse 22. One of those successors, Antiochus IV Ephphanes, set up his own abomination in the Temple, sacrificing pigs there and so on. Jesus could not mean that abomination since it had already happened. I think the abomination mentioned in chapter 9 goes with the events that happened when Titus invaded.

 

[Earburner]

The Day of the Lord
14 Behold, the day of the Lord is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then the Lord will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.

5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.

Thus the Lord my God will come,
And all the saints with You.

6 It shall come to pass in that day
That there will be no light;
The lights will diminish.
7 It shall be one day
Which is known to the Lord—
Neither day nor night.
But at evening time it shall happen
That it will be light.

8 And in that day it shall be
That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem,
Half of them toward the eastern sea
And half of them toward the western sea;
In both summer and winter it shall occur.
9 And the Lord shall be King over all the earth.
In that day it shall be—
“The Lord is one,”
And His name one.

Your answer is typical, but based on the wrong scenario of what the "promise" was/is. Check out Acts 1:4 and Acts 2:33, 39.

 

[Earburner]

Yes, and I see the events in Daniel 9 being about the Roman forces coming in. Titus was not yet Emperor yet when he led that campaign, but he was the tenth Emperor. It fits.

Daniel 8 appears to be about something else, about how the the rule of the Medes and Persians would be replaced by the Greeks. That happened when Alexander the Great established his kingdom. After his death and a period of confusion, four separate kingdoms arose out of what was left of his empire -- described in verse 22. One of those successors, Antiochus IV Ephphanes, set up his own abomination in the Temple, sacrificing pigs there and so on. Jesus could not mean that abomination since it had already happened. I think the abomination mentioned in chapter 9 goes with the events that happened when Titus invaded.

Yes, Antiochus Epiphanes was that "little horn" as prophesied. There is no other to come again. Prophecy, once fulfilled cannot be repeated, however that which was fulfilled can be used as type and antitype.

 

[CharismaticLady]

@Giuliano and @Earburner.

Correct. Antiochus Epiphanes IV

Who is the little horn of Daniel 7?

Now, actually going to bed. LOL

 

[Brakelite]

How did we get to discussing Daniel?

 

[Earburner]

Read your post I responded to; it doesn't give room for a resurrection of our bodies. Do you know the unsaved will also be resurrected?

I still have problems with that understanding about unsaved people.
No one is given, what they call an "eternal soul". "Man became a living soul". He didn't get one!
I can show you a glimpse of what I understand greatly, about the word "soul".
Its not anything of what the "religious" crowd believes it is. In fact, its so contrary to most thinking, that entertaining it is too taxing for understanding, simply because our minds have been duped and poisoned by hundreds of years of its constant and continual misuse of that word.

So, here is one verse that will set your teeth on edge, so much so, that when it registers, you will automatically want to deny it:
Genesis 4[10] And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.

So then, do I believe that unsaved people, who do not have an eternal soul, nor do they have the Gift of eternal life through Jesus, shall be resurrected from their graves, restored back into their old bone, flesh and blood bodies?
No, I do not!
BTW, with most corpses after 300 years, there is nothing left to be found.

 

[BarneyFife]

Are you not understanding Paul? Sorry, but you are not understanding how it is that we become NOT in the flesh, but in the Spirit. It is becoming born again to eternal life. But Paul goes on to verify that the body is separate and must still die, and at the resurrection put on immortality, so as to not confuse the body with the newly immortal spirit.

It's not so much that I'm not understanding as I'm not agreeing with your interpretation. I'm open to the possibility that I'm wrong, but I need more evidence than what I've heretofore seen to adopt the Hellenistic dualist position. Much more. I cannot simply surrender my will to the interpretation of the bidder with the loudest or most eloquent voice. I don't expect everyone to agree with me. Do you?

 

[Earburner]

As I recall, He will return the same way and when He returns the Mt. will split in two.

Answer: The split is Judah and Israel. Its already fulfilled.

I don't think that you have entertained that "the day of the Lord" began in Jesus' first appearance.
You know-
2 Peter 3[8] But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day IS with the Lord AS a thousand years, and a thousand years AS one day.

 

[Giuliano]

@Giuliano and @Earburner.

Correct. Antiochus Epiphanes IV

Who is the little horn of Daniel 7?

Now, actually going to bed. LOL

There are some details that don't seem right to me; but I think that Titus fits the bill. Perhaps there's a "missing" Emperor in the list. Perhaps there were two co-Emperors but one wasn't counted.

The actual number of years is hard to get at since the Jewish leaders played with their calendar. They knew, just as Jesus did, that the Temple would soon be destroyed, but they didn't want the common people to know so they subtracted years and no one knows how many for sure although people have opinions.

Missing years (Jewish calendar) - Wikipedia.

 

[Earburner]

Yes, and I see the events in Daniel 9 being about the Roman forces coming in. Titus was not yet Emperor yet when he led that campaign, but he was the tenth Emperor. It fits.

Daniel 8 appears to be about something else, about how the the rule of the Medes and Persians would be replaced by the Greeks. That happened when Alexander the Great established his kingdom. After his death and a period of confusion, four separate kingdoms arose out of what was left of his empire -- described in verse 22. One of those successors, Antiochus IV Ephphanes, set up his own abomination in the Temple, sacrificing pigs there and so on. Jesus could not mean that abomination since it had already happened. I think the abomination mentioned in chapter 9 goes with the events that happened when Titus invaded.

Here is a clue:
Prophecy about the little horn, was fulfilled by AE-4, and therefore, it cannot be repeated. However, that which was fulfilled can be used as type and antitype.

Ok, now its time to think in the Spirit
about Jesus, God the Son.
Are you ready for the type and the antitype?
There is no greater "abomination of desolation" done to God the Father, than what was done to the temple of Jesus' body.
When Jesus spoke of the abomination desolation, He was speaking about Himself, "the temple of His body" .

 

[Giuliano]

Here is a clue:
Prophecy about the little horn, was fulfilled by AE-4, and therefore, it cannot be repeated. However, that which was fulfilled can be used as type and antitype.

Ok, now its time to think in the Spirit
about Jesus, God the Son.
Are you ready for the type and the antitype?
There is no greater "abomination of desolation" done to God the Father, than what was done to the temple of Jesus' body.
When Jesus spoke of the abomination desolation, He was speaking about Himself, "the temple of His body" .

Was Jerusalem surrounded by armies then?

Luke 21:7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?
. . .
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

What was done to Jesus' body didn't harm him in least. I can't see it creating desolation.

 

[ReChoired]

Prophecy about the little horn, was fulfilled by AE-4

Not in the least:

Start here:
Prophetic Chart from beginning unto the ending, Prophetic studies

Prophetic Chart from beginning unto the ending, Prophetic studies

Prophetic Chart from beginning unto the ending, Prophetic studies

Prophetic Chart from beginning unto the ending, Prophetic studies

Prophetic Chart from beginning unto the ending, Prophetic studies

Prophetic Chart from beginning unto the ending, Prophetic studies

Prophetic Chart from beginning unto the ending, Prophetic studies

Prophetic Chart from beginning unto the ending, Prophetic studies

Prophetic Chart from beginning unto the ending, Prophetic studies

and so on.

 

[Brakelite]

Let me in detail give my reasons why I believe Antiochus cannot be the little horn of Daniel 7.
a. Antiochus does not rise after 10 kings. He was the 8th king in the Syrian line of Seleucid kings. Besides, the prophecy calls for 10 kingdoms to exist contemporaneously, not successively.
b. Antiochus belonged to the 3rd empire (Greece) in actual historical sequence from Daniel’s time.
c. He was not ‘diverse’ from any other king.
d. He did not ‘pluck up’ 3 other kings.
e. He was not ‘stouter’ than his fellows. His father was known as Antiochus the Great, not Epiphanes.
f. He did not prevail until the end of time, the judgment.
g. The kingdom following was Rome, not the kingdom of the saints.

Reasons why Antiochus cannot be the little horn of Daniel 8.
a. Antiochus was not a horn in his own right. He was of the Seleucid line therefore was a part of one of the four.
b. He did not wax exceeding great. In fact his father was greater, but neither was as great as even Babylon or Media Persia, certainly no greater than Alexander. Yet the prophecy demands that the little horn be greater than any empire before it.
c. He does not fit the time periods. According to Maccabees 1:54,59, and 4:52 Antiochus suppressed the sacrifices exactly 3 years. This fits neither the 1260 days , (times time and half a time,) nor the 2300 days (evenings and mornings of Daniel 8:14). These figures do not compliment one another NOR do they meet the reign of Antiochus.
d. The 2300 days is prophetic. Using the day/year principle established elsewhere as being the standard and norm for interpreting prophetic time periods, it is a literal 2300 years.

 

[justbyfaith]

@ReChoired,

What does "being in torments" (Luke 16:23) parabolically mean?

It should be clear that in the story, the rich man was suffering those torments because he wasn't faithful to the Lord in his life.