Edward Fudge: Hero Or Heretic?

[Giuliano]

No, Titus is in Daniel 9. Chapters 8 and 9 are paradigms of what happens before the Second Coming, chapter 7.

What does this sound like in chapter 7?

13 “I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him.
14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one
Which shall not be destroyed.

Daniel 9:27 - Titus
Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week (7 years);
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”

2nd Jewish revolt from 66 AD to 73 AD, and middle of 7 years is 70 AD.

Daniel 8 - Antiochus Epiphanes IV

1st Jewish revolt from 67 BC to 60 BC, AEIV desolated the temple and dies in 64 BC

The Antichrist

The two 7 year Jewish revolts under antichrist emperors, Antiochus Epiphanes IV and Titus are paradigms (example or pattern of something; a model) of the final 7 years for the Jews before the second coming when The Antichrist, the Beast, the lawless one, the son of perdition will be revealed to persecute the Jews, when all of Israel will be saved. Romans 11:25-27 (BTW, the fullness of the Gentiles, means no more Gentiles will be saved (2 Thes. 2:9-12); the focus for salvation goes back to the Jews. Nominal Christians going into the GT will wash their dirty robes in the blood of the Lamb, and overcome and will be martyred.)

Things are getting confusing. I agree with you that chapter 9 ends with a description of Titus.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Things are getting confusing. I agree with you that chapter 9 ends with a description of Titus.

All three are 7 years, all regarding the Jews. Just read it again. The first two, chapters 8 and 9, are models of the end of time, the 7 year Great Tribulation when all Israel will be saved.

Going back to bed.

 

[Brakelite]

To understand Revelation, you must understand Daniel.

Sorry, I'm lost. We were discussing Revelation? Oh yeah, judgement. Okay. And this has to do with Antiochus how? I do agree about the connection between Daniel and Revelation however. And yes, there are certainly references to judgement on Daniel. In fact most of those references pertain to a time before Christ returns. So judgement as per assessing guilt or innocence must be separated from the execution of that judgement. Assessing of guilt or innocence must of necessity be done before the second coming... Like now... Beginning in the house of God, so that at the second coming the harvest is done without error.

 

[Brakelite]

Who else following Alexander the Great comes closer?

You explained yourself that Greece divided. The beast in one vision had four heads, the other, for horns. But the beast was still Greece, though divided. Antiochus was but a minor part of one of the heads. But still a part of Greece. Little horn didn't grow from the beast... It grew from one of the four winds.
KJV Daniel 8
8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

This little horn grew exceeding great. This whatever power this is, has to grow greater than Greece which was described as just very great.
KJV Daniel 8
8 Therefore the he goat (Greece) waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn (Alexander) was broken; and for it came up four notable (but not great) ones (Lysimachus, Ptolemy, Cassander, Seleucas) toward the four winds (compass) of heaven.

The only power that came after Greece that grew exceeding great in comparison with previous powers was Rome. This harmonizes with the statue in Daniel 2. Though each succeeding empire grew less opulent, they did grow stronger. Gold, silver, brass, iron. Rome is the only power that grew so great as to meet the descriptions in Daniel 7, but is the only power to continue in existence, albeit in a different form, down to our day through the horns that grew from that beast, first the ten, then the next little horn which grew into a beast in it's own right and survives until but is destroyed at the second coming. ( The Rock that crushed the feet causing the whole statue to crumble and disappear.

 

[justbyfaith]

How did we divert to the tangent of biblical prophecy?

To @bbyrd009,

I may get to responding to you in due time, I don't feel like answering right now.

 

[Earburner]

Was Jerusalem surrounded by armies then?

Luke 21:7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?
. . .
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

What was done to Jesus' body didn't harm him in least. I can't see it creating desolation.

Was Jerusalem surrounded by armies then?

Luke 21:7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?
. . .
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

What was done to Jesus' body didn't harm him in least. I can't see it creating desolation.

If at anytime, your son was slowly beaten to death, in your presence, while being held back, that wouldn't be an abomination (disgusting thing) to you?

All those scriptures you posted, are in reference to the prophecy of the 70 weeks, specifically KJV- Daniel 9:26
"...and the people of the prince [Titus] that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."
That is not the abomination of desolation that Jesus was pointing to.
When Jesus appeared to us in the flesh, He was THE TRUE temple of God.
John 2[18] Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
[19] Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple [His body], and in three days I will raise it up.
> It is apparent that Jesus cared nothing for the temple building of the Jews.
[20] Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
[21] But he spake of the temple of his body.
[22] When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture [OT], and the word which Jesus had said.

Now, in relation to His body, Jesus said this: Mark 13[14] But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
Mat. 24[15] When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
> Important: Jesus was judged by the Sanhedrin, in the holy place of the temple, not in the most holy of holies.

Q. What and where is "the holy place" of God?
A. Psalm 24[3] Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? *or who shall stand in his holy place?
[4] He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully. [Jesus]
[5] He [Jesus] shall receive the blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation.
Read all of Hebrews 9, specifically verses 23-24, and you will understand that the true "temple" of God/Jesus, had appeared, and now had eclipsed the Temple building, making it altogether useless and desolate of God, hence: "Your house is left unto you desolate" .
[23] It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
[24] For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; *but into [the holy place of God] heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

 

[marks]

Thus there is no such thing as an immortal sinner. Unless of course you can show me evidence of a tree of life in hell.

It's all in what you understand death to be.

"I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne"

They are the dead, yet they stand before God to be judged.

They are the dead, but they have not stopped existing. They have become separated from their bodies, which have remained decaying on the earth. They these dead stand before God. They have not stopped experiencing things.

They are judged for what they did in their bodies, though they have remained dead in trespasses and sins. Even though they were dead in sin, they were not inactive. They were separated from God by sin.

This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only True God, and Jesus Christ Whom You have sent.

Eternal life is relationship with God, eternal death is separation from God, just as physical life is when you are in your body, and physical death is when you've been separated from it.

Much love!

 

[YeshuaFan1]

probably just as many proponents there are of another erroneous doctrine called universalism.

Yes, as neither is supported by the scriptures!

 

[marks]

maybe bc sin is as much a perception of others as it might be actual? Where there is no law, there is no sin, right?

Rather, where there is no law, there is no transgression. A little different meaning I think.

Much love!

 

[Earburner]

So there are many wicked people who will sit in the temple of God, shewing themselves that they are God?

You don't understand!
Our bodies were always meant to be FOR the Living God!
Unfortunately, through the poor/wrong choice of Adam, we all lost the priviledge of God's Eternal Life to be deposited within us. Genesis 3[22] And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Jesus had to come in the flesh, to die as God the Father's Sacrificial Lamb for us, so that we may be restored back to a relationship with Him, for the Gift of Eternal Life.

 

[Earburner]

^ cont'd
Therefore, for anyone and everyone, who does not have the Spirit God dwelling within them, the temple of their bodies (Romans 8:8-9), it is they themselves, who are sitting in the temple of God, that He created for Himself to dwell in.

 

[Earburner]

^ Cont'd.
So yes! You are correct in saying:
"There are many wicked people who will sit in the temple of God, shewing themselves that they are God".
How do we see that today?
Its all about "self". "Be all that you can be".
Whether that be in Hollywood, sports, politics, science, medicine etc., all are out to exceed at being great, as a god!

 

[CharismaticLady]

Sorry, I'm lost. We were discussing Revelation? Oh yeah, judgement. Okay. And this has to do with Antiochus how? I do agree about the connection between Daniel and Revelation however. And yes, there are certainly references to judgement on Daniel. In fact most of those references pertain to a time before Christ returns. So judgement as per assessing guilt or innocence must be separated from the execution of that judgement. Assessing of guilt or innocence must of necessity be done before the second coming... Like now... Beginning in the house of God, so that at the second coming the harvest is done without error.

I was actually pointing out the future Great Tribulation period of end times, and the Antichrist that @Earburner doesn't believe in.

Daniel 8 - 7 year Jewish Revolt from 67 BC to 60 BC - Antiochus Epiphanes IV - model of future Antichrist - desolation of temple in middle around 64 BC

Daniel 9 - 7 year Jewish Revolt from 66 AD to 73 AD - Titus - model of future Antichrist - desolation of temple in middle at 70 AD

Daniel 7 - 7 year Great Tribulation for all Israel to be saved. - The Antichrist

 

[Earburner]

It’s my opinion Jesus is the little horn, cast down sanctuary destroyed.

You are actually very correct.
Of a truth since AE-4, there will never be another LH, because that prophecy was fulfilled. However, fulfilled prophecies can be used as type and antitype, which is exactly how Jesus used it, pointing to Himself as "the abomination that makes desolate".
If all would correctly understand the 70 weeks (KJV only), according to the Spirit, and not by denominational persuasion, they would understand the word "he" in that prophecy, is referring to the Messiah, and not Titus.

 

[CharismaticLady]

It’s my opinion Jesus is the little horn, cast down sanctuary destroyed.

Was Jesus Greek????????????????????????????

 

[CharismaticLady]

You are actually very correct.
Of a truth since AE-4, there will never be another LH, because that prophecy was fulfilled. However, fulfilled prophecies can be used as type and antitype, which is exactly how Jesus used it, pointing to Himself as "the abomination that makes desolate".
If all would correctly understand the 70 weeks (KJV only), according to the Spirit, and not by denominational persuasion, they would understand the word "he" in that prophecy, is referring to the Messiah, and not Titus.

Jesus wasn't Greek.

 

[CharismaticLady]

You explained yourself that Greece divided. The beast in one vision had four heads, the other, for horns. But the beast was still Greece, though divided. Antiochus was but a minor part of one of the heads. But still a part of Greece. Little horn didn't grow from the beast... It grew from one of the four winds.
KJV Daniel 8
8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

This little horn grew exceeding great. This whatever power this is, has to grow greater than Greece which was described as just very great.
KJV Daniel 8
8 Therefore the he goat (Greece) waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn (Alexander) was broken; and for it came up four notable (but not great) ones (Lysimachus, Ptolemy, Cassander, Seleucas) toward the four winds (compass) of heaven.

The only power that came after Greece that grew exceeding great in comparison with previous powers was Rome. This harmonizes with the statue in Daniel 2. Though each succeeding empire grew less opulent, they did grow stronger. Gold, silver, brass, iron. Rome is the only power that grew so great as to meet the descriptions in Daniel 7, but is the only power to continue in existence, albeit in a different form, down to our day through the horns that grew from that beast, first the ten, then the next little horn which grew into a beast in it's own right and survives until but is destroyed at the second coming. ( The Rock that crushed the feet causing the whole statue to crumble and disappear.

In dealing with the Jews, the subject of Daniel, Antiochus Epiphanes IV was the greatest threat.

 

[Enoch111]

It’s my opinion Jesus is the little horn, cast down sanctuary destroyed.

Your opinion is so far of the mark that you are identifying the Antichrist as Christ. "The Little Horn" of Daniel is clearly the Antichrist. The very fact that he is an extremely blasphemous man should be sufficient to show that.

 

[ChristisGod]

Your opinion is so far of the mark that you are identifying the Antichrist as Christ. "The Little Horn" of Daniel is clearly the Antichrist. The very fact that he is an extremely blasphemous man should be sufficient to show that.

Unbelievable the things some people come up with regarding Christ.

 

[Enoch111]

Unbelievable the things some people come up with regarding Christ.

It is getting more an more bizarre all the time. Not only about Christ about about the Gospel.