Edward Fudge: Hero Or Heretic?

[bbyrd009]

be a great day when all these professors get rounded up and tossed out on their cans imo

 

[Earburner]

under the law almost everything requires blood

Well, I am so glad that you brought that up, of which I have tons more to share, reference and to talk about, as I already did lead into it with "Charismatic Lady", just a few posts back. I'm thinking that you might've read it.
If not, please give it a look!
Thanks!

 

[Earburner]

under the law almost everything requires blood, yes, but you cannot Quote what you have just said, sorry; it is you that requires blood, not Yah

so see how you could not be more wrong, yet you presume to teach

I am teaching wrong??
I doubt that very much, especially since God provided His only begotten Son (brought forth from everlasting) to be HIS Sacrifice for us!

Because the Father loves us so much (John 3:16) and wants us back to Himself, He provided the Mediator- THE Lamb of God.
For without Jesus, God the Father cannot, and would not ever be able to Live within us!! Yes!! God the Father required a Mediator just as much as we did!
He desires to live within His Son AND US, and nowhere else!!

 

[BarneyFife]

well, what do they all agree on? If not Death, More Abundantly i mean

Ah, John 10:10

 

[BarneyFife]

i liked the sdas myself, but the legalism, yikes

"Legalism" means righteousness by works, no? Seventh-day Adventists don't teach that, Bbyrd. They teach that faith without works is dead.

 

[Brakelite]

As of 30 years ago, I am happy to tell you that I am an X-SDA, never going back!
However, that is not to say that they don't have a number of things more correct than the other churches, of which also those churches have understandings, that the SDA don't focus on, or simply don't know!
Hence, what God said to me about that:
"No one single church has all of His truth, but all of the churches have some of His truth."- Earburner.

Quite literally I came to repentance towards God, through faith in Jesus, and became born again of His Holy Spirit, through a dream about 2 Timothy 4:1-6.
This was shocking to me, because I had NO knowledge about the Bible, or what 2 Timothy was, or if it was in the Bible.
From that point I began to attend a Methodist church Bible study and services.
From there, I joined a Baptist church. After about 10 years of all of that, I began attending the SDA through a "Rev. Seminar", and thought for sure this was it.
But, as faithful as God is, in my own rigoris personal Bible studies, I was discovering that I was still allowing myself to be duped and misled by "Religion". It was then that God delivered into freedom of His Peace, that I had with Him but wasn't knowing!!
It was then that i finally agreed with God, that through faith in the Blood of Jesus and His Sacrifice, I am made to be perfect and holy, but only in the eyes of God.

His Blood is our Atonement (covering), whereby God the Father does not see our sin, but rather sees only Jesus in us. Jesus within us covers us. Therefore, while in my flesh in this world, through Jesus, I am
sin-less before the Father, but of myself that I can see, as well as others, I am NOT
sin-free!
However, on the day of His return, and my redemption, I will then be forever be sin-free. Yes!! Its all by faith IN HIS GRACE!

God did not create us, and then through faith, make us to be NEW creatures (creation), so that we can have callouses on our knees!
Do you belive in his Sacrifice for YOU?? Then now start to TRUST Him!
That IS THE faith that He is looking for.

So, since at 25 I was born again, and now I am 70, I can truthfully say that in the past 25-30 years, they have been utter joy and peace in Him. Him within me and me within Him!
And now, though I started out in a Methodist church, God has brought me back to that denomination, and has given me the wonderful honor and priviledge through Him, as the President of The United Methodist Men, in three churches, whereby I can teach and preach His gospel message of God's Grace and Salvation through His Son to others!
Praise His Holy Name!
Earburner

I am delighted you have a spiritual home and have peace in your relationship with Jesus. May God bless your ministry

 

[Brakelite]

i liked the sdas myself, but the legalism, yikes

Yeah, that legalism. Even Ellen White herself said categorically that there are genuine Christians in every denomination, and Catholicism wasn't an exception.

 

[CharismaticLady]

One thing is for certain. God requires it for our atonement (covering) over the sin that is "within" us.

I read your post, but you didn't understand what I was asking you. I wasn't so much asking about the body in the ground, but what do you call that invisible part of us the comes back with Jesus at His second coming? I think it is our consciousness, our mind, while the brain is in the ground. That part is a combination of soul and spirit which became born again during life.

Your quote above is correct for the Old Testament saints. The blood of bulls and goats just covered the sin, but didn't take it away. It remained.

The blood of Jesus actually takes away our sin, and give us His Spirit to take us out of the old carnal nature, and lets us partake of the nature of the Holy Spirit within us.

BTW, what do you call the Holy Spirit, if you don't believe in spirit?

Also, thanks for all your effort, it is making me think. I love to be challenged.

P.S. Just read your response to someone else, and I also am ex-SDA! LOL

 

[Brakelite]

"Legalism" means righteousness by works, no? Seventh-day Adventists don't teach that, Bbyrd. They teach that faith without works is dead.

Yes, we teach righteousness by faith. But there are many of us who become a little bow legged and awkward when walking that line that others place between grace and obedience.

 

[Earburner]

"Legalism" means righteousness by works, no? Seventh-day Adventists don't teach that, Bbyrd. They teach that faith without works is dead.

If that is the case, then they need not keep the sabbath verbatim!
And yes, it is being done verbatim, out fear of losing their Salvation in Christ!

 

[Brakelite]

And yes, it is being done verbatim, out fear of losing their Salvation in Christ!

Mmm. God forbid that anyone would observe a commandment because they love Him right?

 

[Taken]

And so, the question remains still for you and others, what is "soul", and how did, as you believe, man get/receive one?
So say you: "by the breath of life"?
No!! That is how MAN BECAME a living soul. He didn't get one!

Well, I disagree with your No!!
The man, was created, a form / body.
The man can do nothing without Life in him.
God IS Life, God provides Life, God takes away Life.
The Created man, can do nothing...Until God "MAKES" the "CREATED" man ABLE to Have LIFE.
And that we can see by Scripture.
Gen 2:
[3] And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

So did man stop being a man when he "became" a Living soul?

No!
The man (Body) continued to be a man.
A vessel made of Dust.
The man (Body) came into a Living state, its life (BLOOD), activated ...the man's (possessive) body now alive, living.
What activated the man (Body) into a living state?
A soul. Whose soul? Gods. How do we Know this, because God declared all souls are His.
And What is IN a soul? Gods Breath of Life.
How do we know, the Body AND Soul are Not the same thing?
Men can Kill the Body.
Men can Not Kill the Soul.
An individual Living man's....(possessive)...
Body and Soul have the Same one NAME Identity.
If a Body is named and recorded in records on Earth...as Howard Philip Jones...
The Soul is Recorded in the Book of Life in heaven...as Howard Philip Jones.
When a body dies...the official Earthly record...will be Howard Philip Jones is Dead, buried, rotting back to dust.
Living souls Leave a Dying Body.
Living souls (are either Saved and with the Lord in heaven...or Separated From the Lord and in hell...
Both Heavenly and Hell souls waiting for Judgement Day.
Both still alive with Gods Breath of Life...waiting for their Sentence.
Life from God removed from their soul...or not...LIFE in the Soul remaining in eternal torment...or not...Life remaining in their soul and with the Lord...or Not.

So now, back to the question: what is "the breath of life" ?

The Breath of Life... is Life from God...in a soul...and Also His Breath Upon a man's body.

Years and years of ignorance by "religion" says its the Spirit of God! But God knows how wrong that is!
However and unfortunately, they of Religion have pumped that lie into us for thousands of years, so that barely any should escape?
Nope! Its NOT what "they" say!
Its oxygenated air! And that is all it is, and ever will be!

A man's Breath of Life is oxygenated air that "aids" in keeping his Blood LIFE Living.
All of mankind's Blood life is activated Alive and corrupt the moment that individual is naturally born.
As a corrupt Life (Blood LIFE of a man) grows, his soul Life in the man is continuously being corrupted....and the precise reason through Gods Grace and His Name sake He has offered mankind A WAY for his Body to be justified to be "made" Glorified, his Soul to be "made" saved (restored) and his spirit to be "made" born Again.
And men...(Flesh Bodies), get to freely make that choice... of what shall become of the whole (body, soul, spirit) of the man.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Earburner]

^ Oh and BTW "faith without works is dead", IS NOT talking about you or anyone keeping the 10C Law, but rather the Righteousness of God in Christ, by Him doing HIS own works of Righteousness through you/us!!

Law keeping verbatim gets no ground with God, no matter how earnest or sincere.
God wants to establish His works of His Righteousness within us and through us, and NOT "the righteouness of the Law" of which doesn't even come close to God's Righteousness of Himself.

You need to study MORE in the Epistles of Paul in the N/C, and NONE of Moses and the Law out of the O/C.
You need to stop blending the two Covenants, for your own sake!
You do know which one was made null and void by the Blood of Christ.
So now, get away from it.

 

[amadeus]

I found it impossible to stay a Catholic after learning that Jesus actually lives and wants to be our friend. Relationship trumped ritualism.

I did not leave Catholicism because I saw any error in doctrine or ritual. On the contrary in the place where I grew up a Catholic I never saw such errors... and at the time I really did not know anything although I did not know even that.

I saw people making mistakes certainly. I have never been anyplace subsequent to my active Catholicism where I have not also see people making mistakes. While I did come out of her at that time I went off to college, I certainly did not go into any other definitely better place immediately... if ever.

I then found it impossible to stay a Pentecostal after learning of the Sabbath.

When I came out of Oneness Jesus Only, again it was not due to errors recognized, but rather because I thought there should be a better physical place where people love God and pursued truth. More cautious now and having moved from a Bible illiterate to a semi-literate person of the Bible, God brought me to something better for me. That was more than 30 years ago when I left the UPC and what God has shown me is that I was not even semi-literate in the things of God. Notice that I switched gears there from literacy in the Bible to literacy in God? What God has done is helped me to follow Him. I thought I was following Him as a Catholic, but I did not know anything. I was as a child and I loved God. In Pentecostalism [primarily UPC] I primarily learned a whole lot of Bible, but it was a one sided knowledge without much of the Spirit, even though I had received the baptism of the Holy Ghost.

When I left Wyoming, the last place I was active in the UPC, I did not know what would be next in God, but I knew I could not return to where I had been. During those 30 plus years God let me to know...

The Sabbath led me to other revelations equally astonishing. Astonishingbecause after 45 years a Christian, I had never heard of these alternate perspectives which made just so much more sense. Yet it took me a further 5 years to join the SDA Church because
A. I didn't know enough about them and didn't trust them and
B. Heard rumors they were evil occult weird people who sacrificed children on Sabbath among other things.

Not surprised I'm beginning to hear those same rumors here... Been there done that.

When God actually led me or pushed me out of the congregation where I was toward the end of 2018, it was really one step at the time and while I speculated, I did not know where He was leading me. I had been visiting many different church services periodically when partially due to you I thought I would try the SDA. I actually visited the local assembly twice, once on 2-1-2020 and again about 2 weeks later. My best friend offline died on 3-1-2020 and that put things of hold. After that being undecided about visiting the SDA assembly again all of this Covid 19 stuff came to the fore and the decision was made for me as there were no more services.

Of my two SDA visits one was unfavorable and the other favorable, but I won't say more on the open forum. I believe that I said something to you about this a few months ago.

Now I have resigned myself to probably never joining anyplace as a regular member again, although God may decide otherwise. As of now things locally have gotten worse in the lockdown. How real that is remains a question mark for me, but it certainly has simplified my choices on physical church attendance. With my wife's immune system being severely permanently compromised, we take the way of staying inside as much as possible and trusting God. If He opens another door, I won't stand against Him, but as of the moment...

Give God the Glory!

 

[BarneyFife]

And I'll say it again:

READ THEIR OFFICIAL WORDS

Twice I posted from their own official sources. No matter how many times you want to "correct me" If you have a beef about those words, then take it with your denominational people who write that stuff. The only "beef" you have with me is that I used the words approved by Silver Springs.

They published it so deal with them.

If you could have been bothered to read more of the eschatological parts of the document, you would have seen that Seventh-day Adventists believe that Christ comes before the millennium to gather His elect, and then carries them to Heaven to reign with Him and that sin and sinners are finally eradicated after the millennium when Christ (with the saints in the New Jerusalem) descend upon the earth for the 3rd time.

While the saved reconnect with God, Satan and his followers are trapped on Earth by themselves. After a thousand years God will resurrect the lost for the final judgment before destroying sin and sinners.
The millennium is the thousand-year reign of Christ with His saints in heaven between the first and second resurrections. During this time the wicked dead will be judged; the earth will be utterly desolate, without living human inhabitants, but occupied by Satan and his angels. At its close, Christ with His saints and the Holy City will descend from heaven to earth. The unrighteous dead will then be resurrected, and with Satan and his angels will surround the city; but fire from God will consume them and cleanse the earth. The universe will thus be freed of sin and sinners forever. (Rev. 20; 1 Cor. 6:2, 3; Jer. 4:23-26; Rev. 21:1-5; Mal. 4:1; Eze. 28:18, 19.)

Taken from:
The Millennium and the End of Sin | Adventist.org

 

[Brakelite]

@amadeus I left Catholicism for similar reason as yourself. I knew nothing of doctrine. After meeting Jesus I naturally gravitated back to the only church I knew... The Catholic. I went twice. I spoke briefly to the priest at the end of the second service. I simply shared with him my recent salvation experience with the joy of a new life still exciting me, and he looked like he had swallowed a lemon. I sensed nothing of the presence of God in that church nor in the ritual itself... Although it brought back many memories of my time as an altar boy as a youngster.
I find Pentecostals generally to be loving sincere Christians. Their excitement for Jesus and their love for one another and the communities in which they served I remember well... At least in the first Pentecostal church I belonged to...I didn't find that so much at all in later churches in another city I moved to although there were of course individual exceptions.
I long for the day when my Adventist Church globally is excited about Jesus as that first Pentecostal church was where I belonged.
My local congregation has a core number of committed excited and genuine Christians. We continue to fellowship on zoom as best we can in the current circumstances. I think this lockdown will shake out many half pie churchgoers from congregations all over the world, and from all denominations. The sheep and goats are even now being separated.

 

[BarneyFife]

Yes, we teach righteousness by faith. But there are many of us who become a little bow legged and awkward when walking that line that others place between grace and obedience.

I thought the issue was what we teach. My mistake.

 

[CharismaticLady]

"Legalism" means righteousness by works, no? Seventh-day Adventists don't teach that, Bbyrd. They teach that faith without works is dead.

Exactly! The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. I'm ex-SDA, but still love them.

 

[Earburner]

Well, I disagree with your No!!
The man, was created, a form / body.
The man can do nothing without Life in him.
God IS Life, God provides Life, God takes away Life.
The Created man, can do nothing...Until God "MAKES" the "CREATED" man ABLE to Have LIFE.
And that we can see by Scripture.
Gen 2:
[3] And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

So did man stop being a man when he "became" a Living soul?

No!
The man (Body) continued to be a man.
A vessel made of Dust.
The man (Body) came into a Living state, its life (BLOOD), activated ...the man's (possessive) body now alive, living.
What activated the man (Body) into a living state?
A soul. Whose soul? Gods. How do we Know this, because God declared all souls are His.
And What is IN a soul? Gods Breath of Life.
How do we know, the Body AND Soul are Not the same thing?
Men can Kill the Body.
Men can Not Kill the Soul.
An individual Living man's....(possessive)...
Body and Soul have the Same one NAME Identity.
If a Body is named and recorded in records on Earth...as Howard Philip Jones...
The Soul is Recorded in the Book of Life in heaven...as Howard Philip Jones.
When a body dies...the official Earthly record...will be Howard Philip Jones is Dead, buried, rotting back to dust.
Living souls Leave a Dying Body.
Living souls (are either Saved and with the Lord in heaven...or Separated From the Lord and in hell...
Both Heavenly and Hell souls waiting for Judgement Day.
Both still alive with Gods Breath of Life...waiting for their Sentence.
Life from God removed from their soul...or not...LIFE in the Soul remaining in eternal torment...or not...Life remaining in their soul and with the Lord...or Not.




The Breath of Life... is Life from God...in a soul...and Also His Breath Upon a man's body.



A man's Breath of Life is oxygenated air that "aids" in keeping his Blood LIFE Living.
All of mankind's Blood life is activated Alive and corrupt the moment that individual is naturally born.
As a corrupt Life (Blood LIFE of a man) grows, his soul Life in the man is continuously being corrupted....and the precise reason through Gods Grace and His Name sake He has offered mankind A WAY for his Body to be justified to be "made" Glorified, his Soul to be "made" saved (restored) and his spirit to be "made" born Again.
And men...(Flesh Bodies), get to freely make that choice... of what shall become of the whole (body, soul, spirit) of the man.

Glory to God,
Taken

If you are going to continue talking that way, then you are going have to pin it down as to what/who died in you, so that you CAN be saved!
You don't seem to get it! You are no longer YOU, nor are YOU yourself alive anymore!

Try this out, and figure out what happened to you, and all born again Christians who believe in Jesus.
Gal. 2[20] I am crucified [killed] with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me:
and the life which I now live in the flesh
I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

You and I, who are born again, no longer exist as to who we once were, "after the flesh".
Romans 6[11] Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 12[1] I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

So then who is that, that is living withn you, that is NOT "soul" (you), but is "quickening spirit". Yes, you got it!
Its Jesus! And in this our flesh, you and I no longer exist!
We are hidden!
Col. 3:1[1] If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
[2] Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
[3] For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

 

[Brakelite]

I thought the issue was what we teach. My mistake.

I think many would like our errors to reside in both what we teach officially and unofficially. Historically not all Adventists have expressed our true teachings regarding law and obedience with the rectitude such a topic demands. Me Included.