Elim & AoG people, when were the disciples born again?

[TallMan]

Others may answer, please say what type of church u r with.

 

[tim_from_pa]

(TallMan;59826)
Others may answer, please say what type of church u r with.
Pentecost. Before then, God barred man from His Spirit after the offer in the garden. This is why they kept the Law by the power of the flesh, but when the Spirit came, we have the commandments written in our hearts.Now, that being said, let me say that different people define "born again" as occurring at different significant events.In the evangelical world, it's when one "takes Christ into their hearts". Actually, we do not chose God, but He choses us and there is some point in time where we realize this and make that first commitment. After that, it is my belief that one has to show a life of continuing faith. Many false conversions occur when people believe they are saved saying a magical prayer, even if it was "in faith".Then again, if you listen to the original WWCG teaching, the "born again" experience actually occurs at the resurrection and technically no one is born again yet. Rather, they are like embryos waiting to be born and that embryonic stage is what they call one's conversion.Personally, I think it's a matter of vocabulary. What they call "born again" the evangelical world would call glorification. I see no significant error in either way of believing as both teach 1) God does the calling and conversion and 2) Both teach an ultimate glorified, resurrected state as a new man. The end result is the same.

 

[Christina]

(tim_from_pa;59827)
Pentecost. Before then, God barred man from His Spirit after the offer in the garden. This is why they kept the Law by the power of the flesh, but when the Spirit came, we have the commandments written in our hearts.Now, that being said, let me say that different people define "born again" as occurring at different significant events.In the evangelical world, it's when one "takes Christ into their hearts". Actually, we do not chose God, but He choses us and there is some point in time where we realize this and make that first commitment. After that, it is my belief that one has to show a life of continuing faith. Many false conversions occur when people believe they are saved saying a magical prayer, even if it was "in faith".Then again, if you listen to the original WWCG teaching, the "born again" experience actually occurs at the resurrection and technically no one is born again yet. Rather, they are like embryos waiting to be born and that embryonic stage is what they call one's conversion.Personally, I think it's a matter of vocabulary. What they call "born again" the evangelical world would call glorification. I see no significant error in either way of believing as both teach 1) God does the calling and conversion and 2) Both teach an ultimate glorified, resurrected state as a new man. The end result is the same.
Completley agree Tim All become a new man in Christ that is the End result.

 

[TallMan]

I ask because Elim & AoG people I have met say that you are born again WITHOUT the baptism in the Spirit, speaking in tongues.

 

[tim_from_pa]

I don't speak in tongues.

 

[tomwebster]

(TallMan;59859)
I ask because Elim & AoG people I have met say that you are born again WITHOUT the baptism in the Spirit, speaking in tongues.
The tongue I speek in is English.

 

[TallMan]

(tim_from_pa;59827)
. . . Personally, I think it's a matter of vocabulary. What they call "born again" the evangelical world would call glorification. I see no significant error in either way . . .
God is not the author of confusion.(1 Cor. 14:33)Surely his razor-sharp word will leave people in no doubt on a matter of eternal life and death, which , according to Jesus (John 3:3-5) this is.John 3:6: That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.So, it's to be born of (become a new creature) the spirit.Literally it means born from above . . of course the Spirit was sent from above, from heaven.8: The wind blows (greek: the spirit breathes) where it wills, and you hear the sound thereof, but cannot tell whence it comes, and whither it goes: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.- You are going to hear something with all that are born again.12: If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?Jesus is talking about something you know with your earthly senses.Acts details the receiving of the Spirit and it was known precisely when people received - they were heard speaking in tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance (Acts 2:4, 33; 10:44-48, 11:14-18 etc)

 

[tomwebster]

(TallMan;59865)
.....Acts details the receiving of the Spirit and it was known precisely when people received - they were heard speaking in tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance (Acts 2:4, 33; 10:44-48, 11:14-18 etc)
they were heard speaking in tongues These tongues were the languages of the many different peoples that were attending the area for Pentecost. The tongues were not some un-known language, they were only not known by those speaking them. The translation was accomplished by the Spirit of God

 

[tim_from_pa]

(TallMan;59865)
12: If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?Jesus is talking about something you know with your earthly senses.
Yeah, I like that quote of Jesus'. It comes in handy when some of us here talk about the migrations of Israel, their purpose and the lost tribes. Many so-called devout born-again believers think this is a fairy tale and do not understand the significance of such a subject. However, it is a major theme of the bible---- misunderstand that and I doubt if one can get the rest straight.Sometimes so-called believers can be the biggest skeptics, akin to atheism. They deny a lot of this stuff. I then say to them exactly what Jesus quoted here. The doctrine about Israel is an EARTHLY doctrine and they do not believe it, so how can they believe spiritual things? Born again? I would not bet my life on it.As for tongues, a lot of the NT quotes have to do with the OT. For example, consider the verse:For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.This refers to Israel in exile when they take on another language, historically English. They are now learning the word of the Lord in that language instead of the one they came from. In the days of Pentecost, the disciples knew other languages to spread the gospel.

 

[TallMan]

(tomwebster;59866)
they were heard speaking in tongues These tongues were the languages of the many different peoples that were attending the area for Pentecost.
Yes, but note people also spoke in tongues when there were NOT other people of other nationalities there.In Acts 10 Peter was already preaching to the gentiles, he was interrupted by tongues!In Acts 19 Paul met 12 greeks in the middle of nowhere, they didn't speart speaking in tongues to preach to Paul or each other!(tomwebster;59866)
they were only not known by those speaking them. The translation was accomplished by the Spirit of God
There was no translation by the Spirit of God.The bi-lingual Jews recognised the words, they didn't need the Spirit to translate for them, they already knew those languages.

 

[TallMan]

They are now learning the word of the Lord in that language instead of the one they came from. In the days of Pentecost' date=' the disciples knew other languages to spread the gospel.[/QUOTE']No, they did not know or understand what they were saying, and the hearers didn't understand the gospel as a result:-Ac:2:12: And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?(this fits with 1 Cor. 14:2: he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God)Then they stopped speaking in tongues and Peter stood up to preach the gospel, then they understood and repented.You are jumping to the conclusion that just because the hearers recognised real language that therefore they were being spoken to.You are also jumping to the conclusion that just because they were speaking about God they wetre therefore preaching the gospel.The truth is neither.If I'm walking down the Champs Elyses in Paris and I overhear 2 Americans talking about their relationship I will recognise the words, but I will not appreciate what they are saying and I certainly won't assume they are talking to me.

 

[tim_from_pa]

(TallMan;59868)
In Acts 19 Paul met 12 greeks in the middle of nowhere, they didn't speart speaking in tongues to preach to Paul or each other!
True, and maybe for all we know they were speaking what today is modern English. I don't know. That's why Paul required an interpreter. Sometimes the Spirit works in such ways as to make a foreshadowing of what will happen in the future, and for their edification.In the end times, God will pour out His Spirit on all flesh:And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visionsThis in its ultimate form did not happen yet, as the church are merely the first ones chosen to rule and reign with Christ. Then rest will be saved in the millennium. This will be the "Age of Aquarius" as Aquarius is puring his endless supply of water into the fishes mouths.In the meantime, we are in the age of Pisces, a symbol associated with Christianity and the promise of Israel to become many powerful nations as they have indeed done. They were to multiply (marginal reading "as fishes") in the midst of the earth. These are the physical people of God acquiring the Abrahamic promises. These are the chosen of race. The church is the chosen of grace.

 

[Christina]

Even if one believes in Today's Pentecostal tongue ...which I do not ...it was simply one small gift called a lowly gift at that given to some ... the Bible is not about this.. nor dependant on it ..the Apostles received the Holy spirit marked by receiving knowledge of the kingdom of God and were given the gift of speaking foreign languages (tongues)for one reason to spread the gospel (the knowledge they received) around the World. It is the Word of God that is/was to prophesied (taught)Today We are simply saved by grace as Tim points out all who are called and profess their believe in Christ receive the holy spirit. PERIOD. Your desire to make all things ... tied to some ..babble of today .. is based in men's religion not Gods Word..

 

[TallMan]

(tim_from_pa;59872)
True, and maybe for all we know they were speaking what today is modern English. I don't know. That's why Paul required an interpreter.
Paul didn't require an interpreter here in Acts 19.The only time he required one was in public meetings to foillow the public use of tongues, as a sign to visitors. Privately, which is the main use, no interpretation is required.(tim_from_pa;59872)
And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions This in its ultimate form did not happen yet, as the church are merely the first ones chosen to rule and reign with Christ.
No, the Joel prophesy is clearly talking about the time before Jesus returns.(tim_from_pa;59872)
Then rest will be saved in the millennium. This will be the "Age of Aquarius" as Aquarius is puring his endless supply of water into the fishes mouths. Most peole will die in the Armageddion coming up to the millenium.
You are not saved until you receive the infilling of the Spirit (evidenced by speaking in tongues, cos that's how Jesus saves - Titus 3:5-6, John 3:7-8.

 

[TallMan]

lowly gift [/u]at that given to some

No it wasn't' date=' Pentecost and subsequent accounts in Acts say that all spoke in tongues."The gift" is only referred to in 1 Corinthinags 12 & 14 where the context is how God uses his people when they all meet.i.e. giving to the church - it is not saying that only some Christians get tongues generally, any more than it is saying only some get faith, knowledhe, discernment or any of the other attributes mentioned.Meetings are for edifying other spirit-filled people so in that context tonmgues is least useful, it only serves as a sign to people that have not yet received the Spirit. ... the Bible is not about this.. nor dependant on it ..the Apostles received the Holy spirit marked by receiving knowledge of the kingdom of God and were given the gift of speaking foreign languages (tongues)for one reason to spread the gospel (the knowledge they received) [/QUOTE']You have completely ignored the scriptures that show is this wrong - Acts 2:12 & 1 Cor. 14:2.

 

[Christina]

The tongues on Pentecost day was natural human Languages it was not babble When He spoke in the synagogue why would he need an interpreter if they spoke the same language. He needed one in public because many languages were spoken and you are not supposed to preach God Word in any language the listeners do not understand if one teaches a Chinese Audience in Spanish they will not understand You see what you want to see Baptism and the receiving the Holy spirit has nothing to do with speaking useless babbleIf you think it edifies yourself fine. If you insist it is one of the gifts, it was called a lowly gift therefore proving it has nothing to do with baptism and receiving the holy spirit, as this was the very message of Christ to believe and be baptised in his name.Calling this a lowly gift, that should not be used in church without and interpter, is even more proof Receiving the Holy Spirit is offered to all through grace upon belief and repentance. No Babble needed This has nothing to do with Pentecost Day where the knowledge of The kingdom of God was given to the Apostles/disciples so they could preach the gospel around the World and to accomplish this they were given the ability to speak and understand the Languages of men. You can argue/deny this all you want... but the Language in scripture and in the Greek is very clear these are the natural human languages of men(that is forgeign Languages) and this was always understood until the last 40 to 100 years when the Pentecostal religion was invented by men. You appear to follow what is called Extreme Pentecostal movement which got its doctrine with the help of the Catholic Church in the 1960'swhich is entirely your desicion to make,But I point this out only to make my point it is a man made religion. Man first finds some belief and then goes about trying to make some scriptures fit these mens ideas.Jam 1:26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion [is] vain.Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

 

[Christina]

(1) The term tongues (in Greek glossa, plural glossais) when used of human speech always refers to the speaking of actual human languages.59 In the Greek translation of the Old Testament (the Septuagint) the word glossa occurs thirty times and always refers to real human languages.60 In the book of Acts where we are introduced to the supernatural phenomenon of tongues speaking, Luke emphasizes the fact the that apostles were speaking real, known, human languages. “And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven. And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language. Then they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, ‘Look, are not all these who speak Galileans? And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born?’” (Acts 2:5-8). That the disciples were speaking real human languages is evident in the following observations. (a) The tongues were immediately understood by the hearers from several different Roman provinces and lands without any need for interpretation. This fact can only mean that the apostles were speaking real, normal languages. Remember the miracle or sign was in the speaking; not in the hearing. The hearers at this point were not even believers. “What this speaking ‘with different tongues’ means is stated in v. 6: ‘everyone heard them speaking in his own language;’ and in v. 11: ‘we are hearing them telling with our own tongue the great things of God.’ The disciples spoke in foreign languages that were hitherto unknown to them, in the very languages of the natives of the foreign lands who were presently assembled before them.”61 As if to emphasize that the disciples were speaking real languages and not gibberish, Luke even lists the peoples which heard their native tongues: “Parthians and Medes and Elamites, those dwelling in Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya adjoining Cyrene, visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabs–we hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God” (Acts 2:9-11). (

In Acts 2, glossais is used by Luke interchangeably with dialektos which the eminent lexicographer J. H. Thayer defines as “the tongue or language peculiar to any people.”62 Obviously, if Luke uses tongues (glossais) and languages (dialektos) in a parallel or synonymous manner, tongues speaking cannot refer to gibberish. “The equation of ‘tongue’ and dialektos in verse 8 shows that speech in different languages is meant.”63 The languages are listed in verses 9 and 11. When we encounter tongues speaking again in Acts chapter 10 we are told by Luke that the Gentiles had the same experience as the Jewish believers in chapter 2. In the historical account, Peter says that the Gentiles “received the Holy Spirit just as we have” (v. 47). He tells the Jerusalem church that “the Holy Spirit fell on them [the Gentiles], as on us at the beginning” (Ac. 11:15). Again, the apostle says that God gave the Gentiles “the same gift as he did unto us” (v. 17). Peter is careful to point out (first to his Jewish companions at Cornelius’ house, then at the first church council) that the Gentiles and Jewish experience was the same. “This likeness of experience extends not only to the fact of receiving the Spirit but to the nature of tongue-speaking in foreign languages.”64 Thus, there is not a shred of evidence within the book of Acts that tongues-speaking is anything but real foreign languages.

 

[Jordan]

(Tallman;59906)
(tim_from_pa;59872)
Then rest will be saved in the millennium. This will be the "Age of Aquarius" as Aquarius is puring his endless supply of water into the fishes mouths. Most peole will die in the Armageddion coming up to the millenium.
You are not saved until you receive the infilling of the Spirit (evidenced by speaking in tongues, cos that's how Jesus saves - Titus 3:5-6, John 3:7-8.Tallman, you are bordering on blasphemy. And you are clearly twisting scriptures once again to suit your own doctrine of men. I can say that is NOT what John 3:7-8 is saying. Nor does Titus 3:5-6 is saying about your version of tongues.So you are being so selfish and foolish to say people are not saved because you do not know what you are talking about. Get that sand out of here.This seems to me that it is almost completely unable to reach you with the Truth...because you won't hear Him.

 

[tim_from_pa]

It's amazing how some people will judge if one has the Spirit or not. But if they do, they should acknowledge what Kriss and I are saying.Tongues doctrine is spiritual arithmetic. I like spiritual calculus and understanding the "whys" behind things, not to be enveloped again with basic stuff.The "Day of the Lord' is the end times when the last days occur up to and including the return of Christ.That's why I brought into the equation the star ages. The Bible gives a hint there. The age of Aquarius did not happen for sure yet during the age of the new church in Acts. That is for these days and the millennium to come.

 

[Follower]

(TallMan;59859)
I ask because Elim & AoG people I have met say that you are born again WITHOUT the baptism in the Spirit, speaking in tongues.
Yes, that is the AoG position. The Baptism of the Spirit, as evidenced by tongues, is believed to be a separate event. I don't recall the AoG having a position on when the Disciples were Born Again.