Embracing Doctrinal Diversity - Unity in diversity

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marks

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And in case you are wondering, I have the gift of teaching you mentioned. (for what it is worth)
I was an elected Elder in the church I grew up in. And asked by other churches and organizations to lead adult Bible study classes.
I say this not to promote myself but since you created a (an unnecessary) barrier between teachers and students.
I am willing to learn from ANYONE, regardless of institutional status.
I created a barrier? How so? And I'm not talking about institutional status, I'm speaking of giftedness.

What this scripture plainly says is that "justification and life for all people" is the result of the actions of one man. (Jesus - the second Adam)
Note the "just as' and "so also" declarations before each statement. Meaning, in the same way.
I actually don't think this is what the passage is saying, it's actually worded differently. That's one of my issues with the NIV. Before we can reach any agreement on it's meaning, I think we need to have agreement one the wording, would you agree?

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Rather than saying "justification and life", there is no conjunction, and instead this is a noun with a genetive noun modifying it.

I'm having a similar sort of discussion with someone else, that words need to be understood in their context. So my first question here is whether "zoe", the basic word for life, should be understood to mean eternal life, or natural life. Many words in the Bible are used of both spiritual and material things, including both justify and life.

To answer this, I look for parallel passages. That's why I was originally wondering if this was why you picked this passage. Because it has no parallel passages to answer this question, of which way these words should be understood.

Justification itself means "to make righteous". We are justified through faith, by Christ's blood. Justification of life is an expression used here only.

@Johann - Your thoughts on Romans 5:18?

Much love!
 

St. SteVen

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So if I'm reading right you believe all religions will be saved & you reject a definitive punishment of ECT in the LOF, correct?
No.
Not all religions, all people.
There will be an age of judgment/correction/restoration before we are all ready to continue.
Easy for most; probably difficult for religious people.

"Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes
are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you." - Matthew 21:31 NIV

Like this...

Anyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. (the reason for the bodily resurrection)

I will provide scriptural support at your request. Thanks.
 If my loved ones reject God per Salvation through Jesus, then it was their CHOICE, no fault of God!
Oh my.
What would heaven be like knowing that your loved ones are burning forever with no hope of escape?
No problem?
Is this what Christianity accomplishes? (feel the love)
Who is my neighbor?
 

marks

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An eternal punishment for a finite crime?
Do you call that justice?
I'm seeing all of your replies to @Keturah , no need to reply to any more of my posts.

Thanks for the conversation, but I don't like where it seems to lead. Embracing diversity seems fine so long as it's others embracing you, but not the other way, apparently.

Much love!
 
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St. SteVen

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That's one of my issues with the NIV. Before we can reach any agreement on it's meaning, I think we need to have agreement one the wording, would you agree?
The short answer is, "No."

I already informed you that agreement is not my goal. I believe what I believe, and you believe what you believe.
I respect what you believe. (and try to understand) You will probably reject what I believe based on doctrinal unity. (your way or the highway)
 

St. SteVen

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Justification itself means "to make righteous". We are justified through faith, by Christ's blood. Justification of life is an expression used here only.
Right, I agree.
What does this say about that?

Romans 5:18-19 NIV
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
 

Ezra

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In the same way we have learned to understand and respect cultural diversity,
we should learn to understand and respect doctrinal diversity.

Can Catholics and Protestants respect one another despite our doctrinal differences? (yes)
What about Baptists and Pentecostals? (yes) You name it. How far apart can we get?

Build bridges, not walls.
when you say Baptist there are humteen Baptist and many of them have a different doctrine . when you say Pentecostal once again different one ASOG full Gospel Church of God Pentecost apostolic my self i can give them respect yes but catholics i dont agree with and many dont with us, if a catholic marries out side the faith.

many times they turn there back on them. they are condemned. i have seen heated discussions with baptist osas /osnas. then we have the 7thday Baptist. out side we say we respect but in many Baptist you are welcome to sit in. but not participate in the service. communion is closed members only.

some baptist baptized into the CHURCH TO BE A MEMBER . EVEN THOUGH YOU BEEN BAPTIZED . so is it real respect or superficial. i was told of a baptist preacher who helped build on a asog church,, he went to the deduction the pastor recognized him as a baptist minister. . it was said the only good baptist is one full of the Holy ghost by some one in the congregation . lets face it our denom differences can create a war
 

Johann

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Yes, Christian Universalism. Better known as Universal Restoration (UR),
or Universal Reconciliation, or my personal favorite, Ultimate Redemption.
But Christian Universalism works fine. Differentiated from Unitarian Universalism, NOT the same thing.

No. (well, sort of...)
And in case you are wondering, I have the gift of teaching you mentioned. (for what it is worth)
I was an elected Elder in the church I grew up in. And asked by other churches and organizations to lead adult Bible study classes.
I say this not to promote myself but since you created a (an unnecessary) barrier between teachers and students.
I am willing to learn from ANYONE, regardless of institutional status.

What this scripture plainly says is that "justification and life for all people" is the result of the actions of one man. (Jesus - the second Adam)
Note the "just as' and "so also" declarations before each statement. Meaning, in the same way.

The actions of the second Adam (Christ) nullified the actions of the first Adam.
That is the plain reading of this. Those who disagree, scrap up some context to nullify this scripture.
Gets back to the aforementioned preconceptions.

Romans 5:18-19 NIV
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
 

Keturah

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I'm seeing all of your replies to @Keturah , no need to reply to any more of my posts.

Thanks for the conversation, but I don't like where it seems to lead. Embracing diversity seems fine so long as it's others embracing you, but not the other way, apparently.

Much love!
I agree.

I'm seeing a spreading of the Beatles Old song " Come Together"......only it ain't over the one true God & his requirements of faith. It is instead the acceptance of all others regardless of " what God says or commands" under a false umbrella of " love thy neighbor as thyself" ! !

Btw " I'm done" means through with  this antagonistic train of thinking !

Catfish are thrown in among the other fish in shipment to keep them active so they don't loose their color or stamina.

I'd rather share the faith in the breaking of bread in the word of life with others whom are like minded by, through / of the Spirit, instead of being catfished !

Thanks & bye!
 
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St. SteVen

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@St. SteVen have a preconceived mindset,
That;s the point, we all do.
Are you claiming that you don't? - LOL

That saw cuts both ways. (cited preconceived mindset)
Is that a reason for me NOT to talk to you then?
This is UNITY of the faith. Division between brothers.
 

Johann

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That;s the point, we all do.
Are you claiming that you don't? - LOL

That saw cuts both ways. (cited preconceived mindset)
Is that a reason for me NOT to talk to you then?
This is UNITY of the faith. Division between brothers.
I have blocked 3 members with their cantankerous insinuations-you claim you are a "gifted teacher" and yet you are in error.
Anymore "Ha-ha's" sign/Ot of immaturity on ignore you go-works wonderfully, the process of elimination.
@marks is correct-don't reply to me or my posts.
Johann.
 

Keturah

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I have blocked 3 members with their cantankerous insinuations-you claim you are a "gifted teacher" and yet you are in error.
Anymore "Ha-ha's" sign/Ot of immaturity on ignore you go-works wonderfully, the process of elimination.
@marks is correct-don't reply to me or my posts.
Johann.
I agree ____ works wonderfully the " process of elimination"!

I'm counting "ignore" as the BEST form of winnowing OUT those opposed to truth & the sharing thereof !

Love brother. Keep your peace! ❤️
 
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marks

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Sorry for making you uncomfortable.
That's your projection. It's simply not the sort of conversation that I'm here for.

Scripture teaches us that those of us who have wisdom and knowledge should demonstrate that through our good conduct. Something to think about maybe.

Much love!
 
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Johann

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I agree ____ works wonderfully the " process of elimination"!

I'm counting "ignore" as the BEST form of winnowing OUT those opposed to truth & the sharing thereof !

Love brother. Keep your peace! ❤️
Glad to see you are still strong in our Lord Christ Jesus!
We are in a spiritual warfare-no doubt about it.
Shalom to you and family.
Johann.
 
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Gottservant

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In the same way we have learned to understand and respect cultural diversity,
we should learn to understand and respect doctrinal diversity.

Can Catholics and Protestants respect one another despite our doctrinal differences? (yes)
What about Baptists and Pentecostals? (yes) You name it. How far apart can we get?

Build bridges, not walls.
I really feel that that is going to be one of the major works of the Holy Spirit, this century.
 
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Johann

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Not all religions, all people.
Incorrect-not all people will be saved-that's your interpretation.

NASB"even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men"
NKJV"even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men"
NRSV"so one man's act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all"
TEV"in the same way the one righteous act set all men free and gives them life"
NJB"so the good act of one man brings everyone life and makes them justified"

This is not saying that everyone will be saved (universalism).

So I don't know where you get your doctrine from.


This verse can not be interpreted apart from the message of the book of Romans and the immediate context. This is referring to the potential salvation of all humans through Jesus' life/death/resurrection.

Mankind must respond to the gospel offer by repentance and faith
(cf. Mark 1:15; Acts 3:16,19; 20:21).

Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Act 20:20 And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house,
Act 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

  1. God always takes the initiative

    (cf. John 6:44,65), but He has chosen that each individual must respond personally (cf. Matt. 11:28-29; John 1:12; 3:16; and Rom. 10:9-13). His offer is universal (cf. 1 Tim. 2:4,6; 2 Pet. 3:9; 1 John 2:2), but the mystery of iniquity is that many say "no."

    So where do you get that "all will be saved?"


    man: Joh_6:65, Joh_5:44, Joh_8:43, Joh_12:37-40; Isa_44:18-20; Jer_13:23; Mat_12:34; Rom_8:7-8
    except: Joh_6:45, Joh_6:65, Joh_3:3-7; Mat_11:25-27, Mat_16:17; Eph_2:4-10; Php_1:29; Col_2:12; Tit_3:3-5
    draw: Joh_12:32; Son_1:4; Jer_31:3; Hos_11:4
    and I: Joh_6:39-40




    Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Except the Father draw him (ean mē helkusēi auton). Negative condition of third class with ean mē and first aorist active subjunctive of helkuō, older form helkō, to drag like a net (Joh_21:6), or sword (Joh_18:10), or men (Act_16:19), to draw by moral power (Joh_12:32), as in Jer_31:3. Surō, the other word to drag (Act_8:3; Act_14:19) is not used of Christ’s drawing power. The same point is repeated in Joh_6:65. The approach of the soul to God is initiated by God, the other side of Joh_6:37. See Rom_8:7 for the same doctrine and use of oude dunatai like oudeis dunatai here.


Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
Rev 2:6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.


Johann.
 
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St. SteVen

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I don't know where you get your doctrine from.
The early church in the east,

"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge" by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96 German theologian- Philip Schaff, Editor: "In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."